Our Covid Response

[Agema]

Yeah because I was forced to

So, despite all the supporting evidence including the recommendations of the person you think is the USA's top vaccine expert and cite for all sorts of claims, you only got one because you had to?

Are you afraid of needles?

The Solidarity Trial showed it didn't work.

Well, that will be easy to check. Let's see what the abstract of the trial report says:

Remdesivir and three other drugs for hospitalised patients with COVID-19: final results of the WHO Solidarity randomised trial and updated meta-analyses

Remdesivir has no significant effect on patients with COVID-19 who are already being ventilated. Among other hospitalised patients, it has a small effect against death or progression to ventilation (or both).

www.thelancet.com

Interpretation
Remdesivir has no significant effect on patients with COVID-19 who are already being ventilated. Among other hospitalised patients, it has a small effect against death or progression to ventilation (or both)."

So that would mean you are wrong: SOLIDARITY showed it did work.

2) No, they don't, the RCTs show that.

And yet there are meta-analyses (particularly more recent ones) of or including RCTs that suggest otherwise, e.g.

Efficacy and practice of facemask use in general population: a systematic review and meta-analysis - Translational Psychiatry

In recent decades, respiratory infections, including SARS, HINI and the currently spreading COVID-19, caused by various viruses such as influenza and coronavirus have seriously threatened human health. It has generated inconsistent recommendations on the mandatory use of facemasks across...

www.nature.com

Frontiers | Associations Between Wearing Masks and Respiratory Viral Infections: A Meta-Analysis and Systematic Review

BackgroundRespiratory viral infections (RVIs) are a major health concern, and some previous studies have shown that wearing masks was effective in preventing...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I got the J&J because 1) it is one and done and 2) it was the one with the least adverse effects for my group. I assume you're talking about Novavax because guess what the stupid mandates did. Those that were in the Novavax trial and got vaccinated didn't count as being vaccinated for the mandates and were forced to get vaccinated again to comply.

Governments do love their standardization. Besides, according to America's top vaccine guy, there's definite value in doing so

Just because Asia does something makes it right? There's never been any data saying masking has worked for even the flu. Or maybe Japan did far better (mortality wise, not case wise) because their population is far healthier than the US, but no, it must be the masking!!!

I mean, generally speaking I'm not gonna assume billions of people doing something for a century are completely wrong. Even if the effect is minimal, it's super easy and small buffs add up

Somebody else already posted research for you to ignore.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So, despite all the supporting evidence including the recommendations of the person you think is the USA's top vaccine expert and cite for all sorts of claims, you only got one because you had to?

Are you afraid of needles?



Well, that will be easy to check. Let's see what the abstract of the trial report says:

Remdesivir and three other drugs for hospitalised patients with COVID-19: final results of the WHO Solidarity randomised trial and updated meta-analyses

Remdesivir has no significant effect on patients with COVID-19 who are already being ventilated. Among other hospitalised patients, it has a small effect against death or progression to ventilation (or both).

www.thelancet.com

So that would mean you are wrong: SOLIDARITY showed it did work.



And yet there are meta-analyses (particularly more recent ones) of or including RCTs that suggest otherwise, e.g.

Efficacy and practice of facemask use in general population: a systematic review and meta-analysis - Translational Psychiatry

In recent decades, respiratory infections, including SARS, HINI and the currently spreading COVID-19, caused by various viruses such as influenza and coronavirus have seriously threatened human health. It has generated inconsistent recommendations on the mandatory use of facemasks across...

www.nature.com

Frontiers | Associations Between Wearing Masks and Respiratory Viral Infections: A Meta-Analysis and Systematic Review

BackgroundRespiratory viral infections (RVIs) are a major health concern, and some previous studies have shown that wearing masks was effective in preventing...

www.frontiersin.org

Natural immunity is more than good enough per literally every study on it in the world.

Wrong study linked...

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2023184

So some meta analysis not on covid is better than an actual like 300,000+ person RCT on actual covid? You just pick stuff that agrees with your belief, I pick the best quality study and go by that. Also, you first study says "However, most of the RCTs included in this meta-analysis did not show a statistically significant effect of facemask use for preventing infection in community settings." Yep, that's solid evidence right there...

Governments do love their standardization. Besides, according to America's top vaccine guy, there's definite value in doing so
I mean, generally speaking I'm not gonna assume billions of people doing something for a century are completely wrong. Even if the effect is minimal, it's super easy and small buffs add up

Somebody else already posted research for you to ignore.

It doesn't say what you think it said, it said no statistically significant effect of infection prevention in community settings. That's super amazing definitive evidence right there if I've ever seen it...

Even literally Fauci says the same thing now.

 

[thebobmaster]

So, people should just let themselves catch COVID and hope to not die or suffer from long COVID, because natural immunity is better than getting a shot that may result in a reaction. Is that what you truly believe?

Oh, right. You also think COVID is nothing more than a mild flu, even though in the same time period that over 5 million people died of COVID, 1.3 million people at most died from the flu. Flu deaths are a lot harder to track because they aren't required to be reported, but it's estimated that between 250,000-650,000 people die per year worldwide from the flu, so I extrapolated worst-case scenario numbers for that and compared to the reported number for COVID.

Oh, and as of July 21st, 41.9% of counties in the US are reporting high Community Level of COVID. Yep, natural immunity sure seems to be doing its fucking job.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So, people should just let themselves catch COVID and hope to not die or suffer from long COVID, because natural immunity is better than getting a shot that may result in a reaction. Is that what you truly believe?

Oh, right. You also think COVID is nothing more than a mild flu, even though in the same time period that over 5 million people died of COVID, 1.3 million people at most died from the flu. Flu deaths are a lot harder to track because they aren't required to be reported, but it's estimated that between 250,000-650,000 people die per year worldwide from the flu, so I extrapolated worst-case scenario numbers for that and compared to the reported number for COVID.

Oh, and as of July 21st, 41.9% of counties in the US are reporting high Community Level of COVID. Yep, natural immunity sure seems to be doing its fucking job.

Catching covid in inevitable, I don't understand how you can think living a normal life will not result in catching covid. Per CDC data, the hazard rate for those with only natural immunity and those with hybrid immunity (natural + vaccine) is virtually the same with ever so slight benefit to hybrid immunity. There's really no need to get the vaccine if you had covid unless you really want that like 0.01% better odds. The amount safety benefit you're getting from the vaccine if you had covid is the same you might get from grabbing both rails when going up/down stairs that like nobody does because the risk is already so low. People don't do tons of things everyday that would give them better odds at a longer and more healthy life.

Covid is worse than the flu, but there also isn't too much we can do about it. The costs of getting covid to where you'd like it to be would be greater than the benefits.

Immunity does not literally equal immunity, it provides protection from serious disease. You can also say the same thing about vaccines, they sure seem to be doing their fucking job, huh? I don't know why you're so against one thing but for another thing. You also do realize that literally every study on the subject of vaccine immunity vs natural immunity puts natural immunity as more protective so natural immunity is doing a better job than vaccines.

 

[thebobmaster]

Maybe if everyone actually bothered getting vaccinated, it would actually help. But hey, what do I know? I'm not smarter than the CDC like you are. Don't bother replying to this post, I won't be responding. There's no point in debating someone who is convinced that they are right no matter what and will dismiss everyone who says otherwise, and this is just pissing me off, which is really not something I need.

ETA: For the record, CDC numbers show vaccination rate for COVID as floating around 67%, so just about 2 out of 3 people are vaccinated. MAYBE THAT'S WHY VACCINES AREN'T DOING THEIR JOB.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Maybe if everyone actually bothered getting vaccinated, it would actually help. But hey, what do I know? I'm not smarter than the CDC like you are. Don't bother replying to this post, I won't be responding. There's no point in debating someone who is convinced that they are right no matter what and will dismiss everyone who says otherwise, and this is just pissing me off, which is really not something I need.

ETA: For the record, CDC numbers show vaccination rate for COVID as floating around 67%, so just about 2 out of 3 people are vaccinated. MAYBE THAT'S WHY VACCINES AREN'T DOING THEIR JOB.

The CDC literally agrees with me, I use their chart all the time for natural immunity.

 

[tstorm823]

Are you afraid of needles?

I am! (This does not contribute anything to the conversation)

 

[Silvanus]

I pick the best quality study and go by that.

Lol ok. Last time you provided me with a "source" it was a puff-piece that wasn't peer reviewed, and was clearly advocacy.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Lol ok. Last time you provided me with a "source" it was a puff-piece that wasn't peer reviewed, and was clearly advocacy.

However, this study unfortunately also highlights that the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context of delta variant circulation.

What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

We've known vaccines don't slow spread for like a year now because, you know, fucking science and yet you still believe otherwise just because you want to believe. That study was based on delta btw, omicron spreads even more. Requiring vaccination to reduce spread is asinine at this point.

 

[Schadrach]

Governments do love their standardization. Besides, according to America's top vaccine guy, there's definite value in doing so

Interestingly, out of the people I know who have caught COVID, the one who did the second worst is a doctor, and took every brand of COVID vaccine available (just in case, apparently - never said he was a particularly good doctor, but he apparently met standards to be an army doc for a time). n of 1 and all, but for someone whose COVID vaccine status was "all of the above", he had a rough time. Didn't help that while he was on the vent due to COVID he also had a heart attack and a stroke. Tried to immediately sieze and die the first few times they tried to take him off the vent and forgot his wife for a few days after successfully coming off the vent. He's shockingly made a full recovery, but holy hell was he trying very hard to get that other foot in the grave.

The one who did the worst spent a month and a half on a vent, then passed away. No clue what her vax status was.

I had it a few weeks ago, got Paxlovid, was utterly miserable for a week (like didn't rise from bed except to eat and pee, could barely swallow, alternating fever and chills), wife threatened to take me to the hospital because apparently you could hear me breathing from the other end of the house. About the time I started feeling better, she got symptoms and we basically traded off who was nurse and who was patient - she had to have a different antiviral because of drug interactions, though. My blood sugar has been doing weird shit ever since, like deciding most days that at 3 AM it needs to start increasing over the next few hours by a total of about 70-100mg/dL for no apparent reason.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Interestingly, out of the people I know who have caught COVID, the one who did the second worst is a doctor, and took every brand of COVID vaccine available (just in case, apparently - never said he was a particularly good doctor, but he apparently met standards to be an army doc for a time). n of 1 and all, but for someone whose COVID vaccine status was "all of the above", he had a rough time. Didn't help that while he was on the vent due to COVID he also had a heart attack and a stroke. Tried to immediately sieze and die the first few times they tried to take him off the vent and forgot his wife for a few days after successfully coming off the vent. He's shockingly made a full recovery, but holy hell was he trying very hard to get that other foot in the grave.

The one who did the worst spent a month and a half on a vent, then passed away. No clue what her vax status was.

I had it a few weeks ago, got Paxlovid, was utterly miserable for a week (like didn't rise from bed except to eat and pee, could barely swallow, alternating fever and chills), wife threatened to take me to the hospital because apparently you could hear me breathing from the other end of the house. About the time I started feeling better, she got symptoms and we basically traded off who was nurse and who was patient - she had to have a different antiviral because of drug interactions, though. My blood sugar has been doing weird shit ever since, like deciding most days that at 3 AM it needs to start increasing over the next few hours by a total of about 70-100mg/dL for no apparent reason.

It's the weird knock-on effects that has me worried, honestly. Like, I'm 95% sure I had it in January of '20, back when we were deluding ourselves about covid not being in the States and bits of me have just been acting weird since. Bloodflow's not as good, I've had low level ear bleeds every couple weeks since, and my joints are more fucked than usual, meanwhile my roommate spent a week in the hospital a year and a half later because his blood pressure was 210/180, his heart was failing, his kidneys were two steps away from being shot, and his legs swelled up so much he couldn't wear jeans. Nobody has any fucking idea what caused that, all the regular blood/cholesterol/drug screening tests came back fine.

 

[Silvanus]

However, this study unfortunately also highlights that the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context of delta variant circulation.

What is the vaccine effect on reducing transmission in the context of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

We've known vaccines don't slow spread for like a year now because, you know, fucking science and yet you still believe otherwise just because you want to believe. That study was based on delta btw, omicron spreads even more. Requiring vaccination to reduce spread is asinine at this point.

From that link:

Before the emergence of the delta variant, it was reported that after at least one dose of the mRNA vaccine by Pfizer or the adenoviral vector vaccine by Astra Zeneca, the risk of symptomatic cases in household contacts of vaccinated cases was about 50% lower than that among household contacts of unvaccinated cases

The SARs in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% in vaccinated and 38% in unvaccinated contacts.

This study confirms that COVID-19 vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection

Higher vaccination coverage rates need to be achieved because indirect protection from vaccinated to unvaccinated people remains suboptimal.

It's like you don't even read the stuff you post yourself.

 

[Schadrach]

meanwhile my roommate spent a week in the hospital a year and a half later because his blood pressure was 210/180, his heart was failing, his kidneys were two steps away from being shot, and his legs swelled up so much he couldn't wear jeans.

See, I hear those symptoms and my mind jumps immediately to untreated diabetes (probably because as a type 1 I've been warned for 30 years [literally 30 years to the day on 9/19] that that's going to be my eventual fate). Especially the kidneys and legs - massively swollen legs and kidney damage are classic symptoms of the kind of circulatory damage caused by diabetes. But that's something they would definitely screen for, both current blood sugar and hemoglobin A1C (which acts as a sort of moving average of blood sugar over the last ~6 weeks) - you can test for either in a few seconds with a single drop of blood (though blood glucose tests can be inaccurate if you consume too much vitamin C, more than about 500mg daily).

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

See, I hear those symptoms and my mind jumps immediately to untreated diabetes (probably because as a type 1 I've been warned for 30 years [literally 30 years to the day on 9/19] that that's going to be my eventual fate). Especially the kidneys and legs - massively swollen legs and kidney damage are classic symptoms of the kind of circulatory damage caused by diabetes. But that's something they would definitely screen for, both current blood sugar and hemoglobin A1C (which acts as a sort of moving average of blood sugar over the last ~6 weeks) - you can test for either in a few seconds with a single drop of blood (though blood glucose tests can be inaccurate if you consume too much vitamin C, more than about 500mg daily).

Yep. So we can definitely say that's 100% not it. Super weird.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

From that link:









It's like you don't even read the stuff you post yourself.

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why are you even quoting the 1st thing? It's old information that's no longer relevant. The 2nd and 3rd quote is not even about transmission, which is the debate. Sure you can argue that if infection is reduced then transmission gets reduced. However, vaccination really just got out there spring of 2021 in the US, IIRC March was when the vaccinations really got rolling in big numbers. Thus, you have most people not even 6 months out from getting vaxxed when Delta rolled in (summer 2021) and the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated for infections isn't nearly that big considering how recent most people were vaxxed. Continue on that line for omicron which is more infectious with vaccines being even older and infection protection more waned, you're gonna have very little difference. How does the data actually support that last line you quoted when IIRC the SAR was actually HIGHER via vaccinated vs unvaccinated? Based on the actual data, how is your conclusion that being vaccinated reduces spread at this point in like any meaningful way?

Also these stupid vaccine mandates are only causing more spread than the very very very limited number (if any) of infections they are stopping. I'm at GenCon now and you have to wait in a line for like an hour bunched up with everyone to prove your vaccination to get a wristband. That line is spreading more covid than it is stopping (if any), it's the dumbest shit ever.

 

[Silvanus]

Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why are you even quoting the 1st thing? It's old information that's no longer relevant.

Because we're not merely talking about whatever variant is currently dominant. We're talking about the principle. Because dominant variants change.

The 2nd and 3rd quote is not even about transmission, which is the debate. Sure you can argue that if infection is reduced then transmission gets reduced.

Of course you "can argue that". Because it's entirely, 100% true. Transmission throughout a community is caused by... infection. If you want to study transmission and ignore infection, then you're studying almost nothing.

However, vaccination really just got out there spring of 2021 in the US, IIRC March was when the vaccinations really got rolling in big numbers. Thus, you have most people not even 6 months out from getting vaxxed when Delta rolled in (summer 2021) and the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated for infections isn't nearly that big considering how recent most people were vaxxed. Continue on that line for omicron which is more infectious with vaccines being even older and infection protection more waned, you're gonna have very little difference.

Hence why vaccines need to be reviewed and updated for newer, resistant variants. Something you argued strenuously against, insisting endlessly that the original vaccine was enough and would work against future variants. Since being proven wrong by the resistance of Delta and Omicron, you've done a 180-degree turn, but appear to simultaneously be insisting you were right all along. It's farcical.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Your own brains are going to resent you for still arguing with Phoenixmgs, I'm tellin' ya.

Anyone want a drink of water, cuz you guys must be parched?

 

[Casual Shinji]

By the way, polio seems to coming back - you know, the disease that was pretty much eradicated - which I'm sure has nothing to do with republicans/conservatives/MAGA cuntbags weaponizing and fueling anti-vax rhetoric.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Because we're not merely talking about whatever variant is currently dominant. We're talking about the principle. Because dominant variants change.



Of course you "can argue that". Because it's entirely, 100% true. Transmission throughout a community is caused by... infection. If you want to study transmission and ignore infection, then you're studying almost nothing.



Hence why vaccines need to be reviewed and updated for newer, resistant variants. Something you argued strenuously against, insisting endlessly that the original vaccine was enough and would work against future variants. Since being proven wrong by the resistance of Delta and Omicron, you've done a 180-degree turn, but appear to simultaneously be insisting you were right all along. It's farcical.

Don't you get it? It's not the variant that is the issue, it's the vaccines can't stop infection regardless of the variant. Paul Offit explained that the immune system making new antibodies takes longer than it takes covid to infect you (get symptoms), thus it can't stop infection. The reason vaccines stopped infections initially was because the initial boost to antibodies. Unless you want a shot every 2-3 months, vaccines will not stop inflections.

Read the above, which is what I said in the last post but you just don't get it. I'm not "ignoring" infection, I'm stating why infection was lowered initially and explaining why it's not something sustainable. Hence why it was already rather shit for delta, and like completely gone for omicron.

Is the original vaccine not stopping severe disease? Yes or no. An updated vaccine is not going to be any better at stopping infection (after the 1st couple months) because the virus incubation period is less than the time it takes your immune system to start making new antibodies.