Our Covid Response

TheMysteriousGX

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Even if the paper was completely legit, there was no reason to give it the time of day because 1) it proved nothing said by the paper itself and 2) was completely underpowered. What is "high gear"; a handful of measles cases or worldwide protests? The pro-vaxxers have done more for the anti-vax movement than the anti-vaxxers could have ever done on their own.
No, high-level politicians pushing obvious bullshit did more for the anti-vax movement than people reacting to a deadly global pandemic. For fuck's sake, they started day fucking one by claiming it was overblown, hospitals were straight up lying, try these quack drugs that have no reason to work, it's just a cold, etc.

I know I shouldn't be surprised, but "high gear" means funding hundreds of studies proving shit like "no, MMR vaccines don't cause autism" or "no, the anti-parasitic drug doesn't do shit to viruses" only to have them ignored anyway, taking money, time, and effort away fro actual, valuable research. Christ, I *wish* I lived in a world where I could do whatever and it would automatically not be my fault
 
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Silvanus

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The data was true at the time, but it isn't true now or for quite awhile and it isn't because variants.
Data doesn't cease to be true, champ.

You might need to amend a conclusion in light of new information gleaned later. But the data didn't cease to be true. Vaccination lowered transmission for several months.

If you didn't have these policies, no one would be upset.
That clearly isn't true; I didn't espouse those policies, and you're endlessly irate at me anyway.

Yes, infections were lower EARLY AFTER VACCINATION, that's not true after a couple months. There's no reason to force people to get something that doesn't offer community benefit. And everyone is gonna get covid who knows how many times, delaying that ever so slightly isn't accomplishing anything.
This is why you use those months properly. Don't just vaccinate, do fuck-all else, and then let the virus mutate and retransmit to its heart's content again afterwards. That's what wasting those months looks like.

Vaccinate, alongside a "lockdown" to get transmission to flatline. Don't just open as soon as the numbers start to improve: wait until you have a solid, vaccinated population. Have a pre-prepared contact tracing system during this period to catch outliers. Then open slowly, sector-by-sector, so you can identify and deal with outbreaks or mutations as they happen. Not just an all-at-once rush so that everything gets out of hand again and the time you had was wasted.

We'd have been in lockdown for less time overall had it been handled with fucking care and intelligence, because we wouldn't have then had to yo-yo back into lockdown for a second and third time later, when things went inevitably to shit again.

I've been fighting off covid off and on all summer.
I am unsurprised.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Data doesn't cease to be true, champ.

You might need to amend a conclusion in light of new information gleaned later. But the data didn't cease to be true. Vaccination lowered transmission for several months.



That clearly isn't true; I didn't espouse those policies, and you're endlessly irate at me anyway.



This is why you use those months properly. Don't just vaccinate, do fuck-all else, and then let the virus mutate and retransmit to its heart's content again afterwards. That's what wasting those months looks like.

Vaccinate, alongside a "lockdown" to get transmission to flatline. Don't just open as soon as the numbers start to improve: wait until you have a solid, vaccinated population. Have a pre-prepared contact tracing system during this period to catch outliers. Then open slowly, sector-by-sector, so you can identify and deal with outbreaks or mutations as they happen. Not just an all-at-once rush so that everything gets out of hand again and the time you had was wasted.

We'd have been in lockdown for less time overall had it been handled with fucking care and intelligence, because we wouldn't have then had to yo-yo back into lockdown for a second and third time later, when things went inevitably to shit again.

How in the hell are you gonna use those months

I am unsurprised.
And we should just use infection data from early March 2020 to show there's like no covid right now? That's your logic. Things change over time. Vaccination doesn't lower infections anymore.

Your plan is a pipedream, it's not possible. Covid spreads before symptoms and the rapid tests don't work early. No matter how stringent you are with your tracing, covid is going to spread under the radar. You see how invasive China has been with trying to get to 0 covid?

Oh, I haven't had covid in the summer but been fending it off. About once a week I get about 10% of a sore throat and it's goes away when I get up the next morning (which usually just happens in the winter). Just a couple days back I had like the start of sniffles but that went away next day as well, which was after I was with someone positive for covid. I've never gotten sick in the summer in my life.
 

Silvanus

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And we should just use infection data from early March 2020 to show there's like no covid right now? That's your logic.
Lol, no. We should use infection data from after vaccination to show how vaccination affected infection.


Your plan is a pipedream, it's not possible. Covid spreads before symptoms and the rapid tests don't work early. No matter how stringent you are with your tracing, covid is going to spread under the radar. You see how invasive China has been with trying to get to 0 covid?
We have no idea how successful China has been, so we can hardly point to it as a case study of anything.

But countries that locked down earlier, and then didn't open up in a big gold-rush as soon as they could, fared better.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Lol, no. We should use infection data from after vaccination to show how vaccination affected infection.




We have no idea how successful China has been, so we can hardly point to it as a case study of anything.

But countries that locked down earlier, and then didn't open up in a big gold-rush as soon as they could, fared better.
That data is no longer true for today so why use it?

We know China hasn't gotten to 0 covid and we know how invasive their policies have been, thus you'd have to be even more invasive than China. That would not be acceptable to the American people in any way, shape or form.

Fared better overall or just fared better with covid? Because the overall is the important one.
 

Silvanus

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That data is no longer true for today so why use it?
Data doesn't cease to be true.

We know China hasn't gotten to 0 covid and we know how invasive their policies have been, thus you'd have to be even more invasive than China. That would not be acceptable to the American people in any way, shape or form.
Nope, you're again insisting on ascribing policies to me that I've never endorsed and don't want.

Fared better overall or just fared better with covid? Because the overall is the important one.
Most other countries are "faring better overall" than the USA.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Data doesn't cease to be true.



Nope, you're again insisting on ascribing policies to me that I've never endorsed and don't want.



Most other countries are "faring better overall" than the USA.
You know what I meant. Why even bring up something that is no longer relevant as some point in your favor?

How do you think your idea for how to have handled covid would have went with implementing no policies? Your plan is a pipedream that isn't possible.

Which ones? The main problem with the US response was spending all that money that didn't need to be spent causing inflation. Closing schools for 18 months was also really really bad that almost no other country did besides the US.
 

Silvanus

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You know what I meant. Why even bring up something that is no longer relevant as some point in your favor?
It hasn't ceased to be relevant, either. The fact that vaccination lowers transmission significantly for a certain amount of time is still profoundly useful information, if we wanted to use it.

How do you think your idea for how to have handled covid would have went with implementing no policies? Your plan is a pipedream that isn't possible.
You're being deliberately obtuse.

I do endorse certain policies. But policy is not the original topic of our discussion here, and I dont want to get dragged into it.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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It hasn't ceased to be relevant, either. The fact that vaccination lowers transmission significantly for a certain amount of time is still profoundly useful information, if we wanted to use it.



You're being deliberately obtuse.

I do endorse certain policies. But policy is not the original topic of our discussion here, and I dont want to get dragged into it.
But you really can't use it though. You couldn't really use it then either (because of logistics). Probably well over 90% of the population has either gotten vaxxed or infected or both, how are you gonna use (right now) that vaccination lowers infection within the 1st couple months in any meaningful way?

How in the world do you think we could've stopped covid? I'd love to hear this impossible plan of yours.
 

Silvanus

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But you really can't use it though. You couldn't really use it then either (because of logistics). Probably well over 90% of the population has either gotten vaxxed or infected or both, how are you gonna use (right now) that vaccination lowers infection within the 1st couple months in any meaningful way?
A huge proportion of the population has received a vaccine over a year ago, tailored to an earlier variant which is no longer dominant, and which has very limited effect on current dominant strains.

The fact that vaccines lower infection and transmission would... you know, inform the case for boosters tailored to current variants.

How in the world do you think we could've stopped covid? I'd love to hear this impossible plan of yours.
I've already outlined the policies I advocated several times. If you want to know, read the posts that have already been written, because I'm so sick of repeating myself at this point.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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A huge proportion of the population has received a vaccine over a year ago, tailored to an earlier variant which is no longer dominant, and which has very limited effect on current dominant strains.

The fact that vaccines lower infection and transmission would... you know, inform the case for boosters tailored to current variants.



I've already outlined the policies I advocated several times. If you want to know, read the posts that have already been written, because I'm so sick of repeating myself at this point.
Very limited effect in your world is very greatly stopping severe disease?

Every time I bring up policies needed for your pipedream to work, you say some bullshit like this...
Nope, you're again insisting on ascribing policies to me that I've never endorsed and don't want.
I believe your plan would be something like vaccinating everyone at once (which logistically isn't possible), shutting down to get covid basically to 0 because you have everyone vaxxed and in theory immune to infection (which isn't true even if the vax was super updated to the current strain). Or covid might be not be quite 0 but at least be low enough not to MUTATE (cuz that's so dangerous!!!) and everyone has prolonged immunity to covid because the same strain is circulating. Even if you got the same strain only circulating, the vaccine over time would not provide infection protection anyway (basic science, infection happens faster than new antibodies are produced by your immune system) and you'd have lots of infections and it would mutate anyway. And you also think you can do contact tracing to keep covid from re-outbreaking, that isn't true. A very infectious disease that is airborne and most transmissible before symptoms that rapid tests don't detect early is going to be able to be contact traced to oblivion? ALSO, YOU'D HAVE TO DO THIS ACROSS THE WHOLE WORLD ALL AT THE SAME TIME (AND ANIMALS) even if it was something that could work, which it's not. That is complete fantasy and not something that's ever going to work.
 

Silvanus

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Very limited effect in your world is very greatly stopping severe disease?
The original vaccines, received over a year ago, are not having that effect.

Severe disease is currently mitigated by the lower severity of Omicron, as well as by much later vaccines or infection.

Every time I bring up policies needed for your pipedream to work, you say some bullshit like this...


I believe your plan would be something like vaccinating everyone at once (which logistically isn't possible), shutting down to get covid basically to 0 because you have everyone vaxxed and in theory immune to infection (which isn't true even if the vax was super updated to the current strain).
Well, there's your problem.

The policies you bring up are just ridiculous strawmen.

As I said before, you can engage with the policies I actually did advocate whenever you like. I've outlined what they are more than once. I see no reason to engage with absurdities you've dreamt up and ascribed to me.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The original vaccines, received over a year ago, are not having that effect.

Severe disease is currently mitigated by the lower severity of Omicron, as well as by much later vaccines or infection.



Well, there's your problem.

The policies you bring up are just ridiculous strawmen.

As I said before, you can engage with the policies I actually did advocate whenever you like. I've outlined what they are more than once. I see no reason to engage with absurdities you've dreamt up and ascribed to me.
So your just gonna disagree with scientific consensus and experts like Paul Offit? Show me any legit doctor saying vaccines have had very limited effect.

So what is your actual plan of getting rid of covid because you've yet to actually reveal it outside of tiny bits here and there?
 

Silvanus

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So your just gonna disagree with scientific consensus and experts like Paul Offit? Show me any legit doctor saying vaccines have had very limited effect.
I didn't say "vaccines have had very limited effect", because that's not the truth and I don't believe it.

Address what I actually said.

So what is your actual plan of getting rid of covid because you've yet to actually reveal it outside of tiny bits here and there?
I've outlined the course of action I'd have supported in full, several times already. Feel free to read the posts that already contain the information you're demanding.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I didn't say "vaccines have had very limited effect", because that's not the truth and I don't believe it.

Address what I actually said.



I've outlined the course of action I'd have supported in full, several times already. Feel free to read the posts that already contain the information you're demanding.
You literally said:
The original vaccines, received over a year ago, are not having that effect.

Severe disease is currently mitigated by the lower severity of Omicron, as well as by much later vaccines or infection.
That isn't close to being true.

What if anything was wrong with my outline of your plan?
 

Silvanus

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You literally said:

That isn't close to being true.
It's entirely true. The original vaccines, the first we took, are today having a very limited effect; they were high-impact and low-duration.

There are currently fairly high levels of resistance in most populations (varying wildly, of course) but this derives from later vaccinations or infections, and the less severe nature of Omicron.

What if anything was wrong with my outline of your plan?
To start with, the nonsense about vaccinating everyone all at once, or locking down until it was at zero.

Literally the first two things you described. Never advocated them; pure straw.
 

Phoenixmgs

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It's entirely true. The original vaccines, the first we took, are today having a very limited effect; they were high-impact and low-duration.

There are currently fairly high levels of resistance in most populations (varying wildly, of course) but this derives from later vaccinations or infections, and the less severe nature of Omicron.



To start with, the nonsense about vaccinating everyone all at once, or locking down until it was at zero.

Literally the first two things you described. Never advocated them; pure straw.
Cite literally any legit doctor agreeing with you. The vaccines stop severe disease greatly, memory b-cells work.

Then what is your plan?
 

Silvanus

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Cite literally any legit doctor agreeing with you. The vaccines stop severe disease greatly, memory b-cells work.
Your problem, as always, is identifying one aspect and then hyper-focusing on it.

Vaccine protection derives from antibodies, B-cells, and T-cells. Some wane faster than others, and B-cells wane relatively slowly (though wane they do). And so, since it's useful for your position, you'll focus on them as if they're solely the important ones, and write off antibodies which wane much quicker.

No, that ain't how it works. Vaccines achieve their level of protection from all 3.


Then what is your plan?
Feel free to read the posts which have already laid out my positions if you'd like to address them.