Funny events in anti-woke world

BrawlMan

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White family leaves Black boy with 80% of his body burned, after visiting them, and the boy’s family launches #JusticeForJayceon campaign (msn.com)

Alaska Lawmakers Erupt After Old White Guy Says Natives Should be ‘Sent Home’ (msn.com)

Both officers were terminated, and the father was awarded $200,000. The son should have gotten something too, or even more so. At least assholes are being punished for being unlawful assholes abusing their power.
Police officer arrests a man for rolling his car window up and pepper spray his father for filming the arrest, as another officer tackles the man to the ground [VIDEO] (msn.com)
 
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Terminal Blue

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Pity is compassion for the suffering of others.
Empathy is understanding the feelings of others.
Both of those things are different forms of empathy.

Empathy is a set of related social skills encompassing not just the ability to understand another person's perspective but also to respond with the appropriate emotion in order to try and meet that person's needs.

Like, lets consider the plight of the homeless. People might say we should have empathy for the homeless and help them. But a high percentage of the homeless have substance abuse problems, who don't want to be in shelters because they can't do drugs there, their addiction drives them away from help. Empathizing with that person isn't a bad thing, but it doesn't lead you to getting them off the streets and free of drugs.
Empathetic concern (or pity) is not voluntarily. It's not something you can turn on or off, even if you want to. You either have it or you don't, and if you don't have it it's because you never developed the requisite skills.

It is entirely possible to feel pity for someone and simultaneously to understand that it is not within your power to help them.

The reason many people who are sleeping rough have problems with substance abuse is not because they are bad people born without souls, it's because they have deeper problems which they are self-medicating. Many will be victims of various forms of abuse, either before or after they became homeless. Many will have undiagnosed and untreated mental health issues. All of them will be accustomed to poverty and hardship. There are typically a long series of societal failures which result in a person ending up in that position.

And this might lead us to ask other questions. Why do we expect people living in horrendous conditions to become abstinent on their own before we can help them? Why not allow people to do drugs in shelters under supervision? Why focus on abstinance as the only acceptable outcome rather than focusing on mitigating the harm addicts cause to themselves and others?

The problems you have described are very difficult to fix, but empathy, understanding why people are the way they are and being willing to consider and attempt to meet their needs rather than the other way around, is a necessary first step.

You don't see the people preaching empathy showing empathy for conservatives or Christians or the wealthy.
By your own definition of empathy, you do. What you don't see is empathetic concern, because empathetic concern is kind of specific to people who are suffering.

Again, empathy is involuntary and thus can be complex. You can empathize with someone, or even feel empathetic concern towards them, and yet recognize that they are harming other people.

But here we have a situation where a mother finds out her son's middle school classroom has "This Book is Gay" available for students, a book written by an adult provided by a school run by adults which contains literal instructions on how to give better handjobs, and people have absolutely no empathy at all for that woman or her concerns.
Again, you can empathize with someone and yet recognize that they are harming other people.

Any real understanding of that woman's perspective will come to the conclusion that it is based on bigotry towards others and a desire for control over her son's sexuality which is ultimately harmful to everyone involved.

Non-coincidentally, a very high proportion of homeless people are also gay, and end up in that position due to parental rejection.
 

Silvanus

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I perceive commonalities between us, and you consider that arrogant and condescending?
I consider it condescending to assume that the only reason I would disagree with you is not a genuine difference in principle, but because I'm merely too stupid to realise I've been misled.

You can deny that that's the implication if you want. But your position is predicated on the idea that I'm incapable of properly evaluating information on the same level as you. Condescension in the extreme.
 

tstorm823

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Any real understanding of that woman's perspective will come to the conclusion that it is based on bigotry.
Anyone who said I lack empathy, take a look at this comment. "I tried to understand these people's feelings, and realized they're hateful awful people."

Add to that the statement that empathy is involuntary, it's "I have the innate ability to feel how bigoted people are."
I consider it condescending to assume that the only reason I would disagree with you is not a genuine difference in principle, but because I'm merely too stupid to realise I've been misled.

You can deny that that's the implication if you want. But your position is predicated on the idea that I'm incapable of properly evaluating information on the same level as you. Condescension in the extreme.
I don't believe that is the implication, but if it were, it would be a two way street. What else is the situation, if we are arguing about the facts of a particular situation? Each of us obviously believes the other is misinformed. If that's condescending, it's inherently mutual, but I don't believe it is.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I don't believe that is the implication, but if it were, it would be a two way street. What else is the situation, if we are arguing about the facts of a particular situation? Each of us obviously believes the other is misinformed. If that's condescending, it's inherently mutual, but I don't believe it is.
It's entirely possible to believe that you have the exact same facts as I do and are merely interpreting them in a different way or that your values favor and weight certain facts differently than my own.

The fact that they're also shitty values and lead to shitty situations and shitty conclusions is a different topic. Like, all relevant data shows that the best way to reduce teen STDs, teen pregnancy, and the subsequent teen abortions is comprehensive sex education starting in early childhood and easy/free access to comprehensive contraception. It also dramatically reduces the chance that a kid is abused and groomed, because they know what's going on.

In light of that verifiable *fact*, what conclusions should I be reaching about the conservative's rejection of all of those ideas?

Similar situation in housing, where every test case and experiment shows that the best way to reduce a homeless population, shake off associated addictions, and getting these people back into society is by giving them freely available housing and social services with minimal restrictions, and it's usually *cheaper* than current models to boot. So...why not? What is the logical, ethical, commercial, and compassionate argument for not doing that immediately?
 

tstorm823

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It's entirely possible to believe that you have the exact same facts as I do and are merely interpreting them in a different way or that your values favor and weight certain facts differently than my own.
Yes, and you are not Silvanus. Different people reach disagreements for different reasons.
 

Terminal Blue

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Anyone who said I lack empathy, take a look at this comment. "I tried to understand these people's feelings, and realized they're hateful awful people."
Bigotry does not imply being a hateful or awful person, and neither does it need to in order to be harmful.

You seem to believe that there is a better explanation here which I am somehow unable to take the perspective of. What do you imagine that explanation is?

Now, part of this is that you seem to view addiction as some kind of internal weakness rather than the imposition of an external force, and you seem to believe that this justifies a lack of understanding or concern towards people who are clearly suffering. Having seen addiction first hand, you are wrong, but you also have a point. You can't save people from harm they are doing to themselves.

A person suffering because they are terrified their teenage child will read about handjobs and have impure thoughts or, worse still, become gay is pitiable, but that pity is not actionable because the harm in question is self-inflicted.
 
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Silvanus

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I don't believe that is the implication, but if it were, it would be a two way street. What else is the situation, if we are arguing about the facts of a particular situation? Each of us obviously believes the other is misinformed. If that's condescending, it's inherently mutual, but I don't believe it is.
I believe you are placing emphasis on facts in such a way to support an ideological inclination. This may lead you to a conclusion I think is misled. But we're operating on the same information.

A good example would be the Rudy Giuliani-Burisma stuff. We both have access to the same information on the messages exchanged, the calls, etc. But you and I place emphasis and credibility very, very differently. It is not that I'm simply lacking the information you had. I believe you've placed undue emphasis on some things, and understated or disregarded others, to come to the conclusion you have.

It would be insulting your intelligence to just say, "I'm so self-evidently right, so you'd agree with me of course if you were just able to evaluate sources like me, smh".
 

tstorm823

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You seem to believe that there is a better explanation here which I am somehow unable to take the perspective of. What do you imagine that explanation is?
Parents don't want teachers giving children sex guides. They don't want teachers doing anything even tangentially related to sex with their kids. Parents don't want their kids molested. Is bigotry seriously the only explanation you could come up with?
Now, part of this is that you seem to view addiction as some kind of internal weakness rather than the imposition of an external force, and you seem to believe that this justifies a lack of understanding or concern towards people who are clearly suffering. Having seen addiction first hand, you are wrong, but you also have a point. You can't save people from harm they are doing to themselves.
You have an exceptional talent for putting the ideas you want to argue against in my mouth. What did I say that even remotely implies addiction is an internal weakness? What part of "it isn't bad to empathize with a drug addict, but that's not what motivates you to help them" implies that I think it's justified to lack concern for people"? And ultimately, what was the point of making me out as a monster to then go "but actually you have a point" afterwards?
I believe you are placing emphasis on facts in such a way to support an ideological inclination. This may lead you to a conclusion I think is misled. But we're operating on the same information.

A good example would be the Rudy Giuliani-Burisma stuff. We both have access to the same information on the messages exchanged, the calls, etc. But you and I place emphasis and credibility very, very differently. It is not that I'm simply lacking the information you had. I believe you've placed undue emphasis on some things, and understated or disregarded others, to come to the conclusion you have.

It would be insulting your intelligence to just say, "I'm so self-evidently right, so you'd agree with me of course if you were just able to evaluate sources like me, smh".
There are times you would agree with me if you had all the information. That is a thing that has happened. It's not a universal rule. Sometimes you do reach different conclusions from the same info, but there absolutely have been times you've been persuaded by new info. I don't know about the Guiliani-Ukraine deal, where you're prioritizing the non-specific second hand testimony of one person and the already recanted statement of a Ukrainian ex-official over first-hand recorded messages exchanged between the allegedly guilty parties, that just seems willfully stubborn. That might be insulting, but it's not an insult to your intelligence. Intelligent people are, if anything, better at being really stubborn.
 

Buyetyen

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Parents don't want teachers giving children sex guides. They don't want teachers doing anything even tangentially related to sex with their kids. Parents don't want their kids molested. Is bigotry seriously the only explanation you could come up with?
Which is why the majority of parents aren't teachers: they straight up are not qualified to decide what constitutes a well-rounded education and many of them have demonstrated an inability to differentiate education or literature from hardcore pornography. To suggest that kids are going to be molested because books about queer people are available in a library really speaks to nothing more than your own anti-queer bigotry.
 
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Terminal Blue

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Parents don't want teachers giving children sex guides. They don't want teachers doing anything even tangentially related to sex with their kids. Parents don't want their kids molested. Is bigotry seriously the only explanation you could come up with?
No, because there was another part you cut out.

Parents don't have a right to control over the developing sexuality of their children. That desire for control is harmful. It's harmful to the children, it's harmful to society and ultimately it's harmful to the parents themselves.

But let's go straight for the heart of the matter. More than half of children who are sexually abused are abused by a parent or close relative.

The sexual abuse of children is not an issue that can be solved by some family values logic of parental empowerment, because frequently parents are either responsible or negligent in cases where their children are abused. Educators have a necessary role in preventing child sexual abuse or exploitation, and part of that role is through sex-education and exposing children to a wide range of healthy and prosocial material regarding sex that is age-appropriate to them.

And yes, that includes material that is pro-pleasure. Pleasure, after all, is the reason why adults have sex. Concealing that reality from children is a dangerous lie, because a child who does not understand that sex is something that is supposed to be mutually enjoyable is either vulnerable to exploitation or, worse still, at risk of exploiting others.

What did I say that even remotely implies addiction is an internal weakness?
That is generally what people mean when they suggest that helping addicts (without the explicit requirement that they stop being addicts) is pointless or futile.

When you say that sheltered housing won't help addicts because they don't want to stop using drugs, there is a really obvious question there. Why require that they stop using drugs? Why adopt a policy focused on addiction as a moral problem, on punishing addicts in the hope that it will persuade them to spontaneously become abstinent on their own, rather than a policy that treats addiction as a holistic medical problem that requires long-term management.

At this point, it is very obvious that harm reduction policies work. The only obstacle they face is political will and the moralistic attitude our culture still has towards addiction.
 

Avnger

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Parents don't want teachers giving children sex guides. They don't want teachers doing anything even tangentially related to sex with their kids. Parents don't want their kids molested.
Do you honestly not understand the difference between molestation and sex education?

I ask because the only other possibility is that you believe we should tailor our education system to the lowest common intellectual denominator of parents. In that case my question is where does it stop? If a group of parents believes the earth is flat, should globes and geography be banned from schools? Should algebra be banned because a proportion of the parents believe math was invented by Satan and learning it opens the children's souls to eternal damnation? Should Physical Education classes be prohibited because certain parents (such as Donald Trump, for example) believe exercising literally shortens your lifespan?
 

tstorm823

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To suggest that kids are going to be molested because books about queer people are available in a library really speaks to nothing more than your own anti-queer bigotry.
"This Book is Gay" has instructions for giving handjobs. It's not about queer people in books. That's not the problem.
Parents don't have a right to control over the developing sexuality of their children. That desire for control is harmful. It's harmful to the children, it's harmful to society and ultimately it's harmful to the parents themselves.
I fundamentally disagree with this. Parents are absolutely responsible for guiding their children's sexual development. Because family has that responsibility, they have the access to abuse that position. You are arguing to expand the number of people with that access. You're not going to solve a problem by advocating for more of the cause.
That is generally what people mean when they suggest that helping addicts (without the explicit requirement that they stop being addicts) is pointless or futile.
Again, not even remotely what I said.

Do you honestly not understand the difference between molestation and sex education?
Do you honestly not see the the difference between sex ed as a health subject and instructions for how to stimulate another person's penis?
 

Buyetyen

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"This Book is Gay" has instructions for giving handjobs. It's not about queer people in books. That's not the problem.
So it's about what? Help me out here. Is this just more Catholic prudery? Would you prefer people figure this shit out through trial and error?