Funny events in anti-woke world

Silvanus

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It is entirely possible your theoretical person wants a reconstructed penis entirely because he feels he isn't a man without it.
Oooook. And you'd be happy to tell him he's being "contradictory" in wanting it, that he's not a man and therefore he shouldn't want it?

The second premise you are saying people don't think is absolute, sure, lots of people don't think that's absolute. There are plenty of people who think "man" and "woman" are genders and sex characteristics are irrelevant. They aren't the ones doing sex changes. Without the premise that men and women have distinct sex characteristics, none of the hormone therapies and sex change surgeries are rational. Why make major medical changes for something unrelated?
It's not "unrelated". You've swung from "absolute 100% relationship" to "unrelated".

I already said what it is. There's a strong relationship between the two. But it is not absolute, unchangeable, or always static. Why do you automatically discount anything outside these absurd extremes?

You think you are getting information from those with relevant experience? No, you're getting information from stupid people with agendas on the internet.
No, I'm getting information from A) my genuine interaction with the queer community, which is undoubtedly significantly greater than yours; and B) testimony from practitioners that I've read online.
 
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Silvanus

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How do you deal with abnormality then? Back in my home town there's or at least was a cashier dude who had long blonde hair. Then I glimpsed at their nametag once and it said "Jessica". I assume that they don't want to look like a blonde dude who stole someone's nametag. I assume that they'd like to look like a Jessica, but as of that moment they didn't.
I usually "deal with" such situations by letting people get on with their own lives and carrying on with mine. It's actually not that hard.

If the answer is that we shouldn't assume anything then give yourself a prize, but normal people assume normal things. When we hear hooves clip-clopping we call it a horse even though zebras exist.
Obviously. But nobody is complaining about people making honest assumptions and occasionally being mistaken. The problem arises when you find out it's a zebra and then blindly insist that it's a horse because you know best goddammit.
 

Terminal Blue

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Hilariously doc gu6 might've just found the clit and had no idea what it was.
That is definitely my preferred interpretation. The clitoris had already been "discovered" by medical science at that point (by a doctor named Columbus, probably a joke in there somewhere) but its possible that the particular doctor in this case hadn't seen one before.

Renaissance medicine was obsessed with the idea of male and female reproductive organs as homologous (which of course they actually are but not in the way people imagined at the time). To them, the uterus was the female penis because they both look like tubes. But the idea of the clitoris as a penis-equivalent was not completely lost on them either, and they did seem to understand that it performed a similar role in terms of arousal and sexual pleasure.

Sexual pleasure was also very important to people at the time because it was seen to play an important role in fertility. Foreplay was very normalized and it's reasonable to think people had always kind of known about the clit. Just, maybe not this particular guy.

But the thing is we just don't know. The way people perceived and wrote about anatomy is so different that it's really ambiguous what's going on in this case.
 

Buyetyen

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How do you deal with abnormality then? Back in my home town there's or at least was a cashier dude who had long blonde hair. Then I glimpsed at their nametag once and it said "Jessica". I assume that they don't want to look like a blonde dude who stole someone's nametag. I assume that they'd like to look like a Jessica, but as of that moment they didn't.
And what does a Jessica look like, exactly? How would I know one were I to encounter it in the wild?

If the answer is that we shouldn't assume anything then give yourself a prize, but normal people assume normal things. When we hear hooves clip-clopping we call it a horse even though zebras exist.
Here's the thing about assumptions: you don't have to stick with them when proven wrong.
 
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Trunkage

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Yes, this is what I mean. We probably disagree on how far norms can be relaxed in different situations, and maybe even how much they should, but that is subject to change over time. Statistically "average" and "normal" mean different things, of course. Colloquially "normal" depends on the point of view.
(This is not necessarily a argument against your pov)

An individual is generally not 'normal'. When you group people together, you get trends in choices that you can call normal.... with the proviso that the government and society already enforces 'normal'. But the word normal here is also a social construct that is meant to be authoritarian and restrictive. By design. And many use the word normal in place for their own personal preference, instead of using any form of evidence. The word normal can be turned into a sledgehammer to stop people questioning

If someone makes vague gestures towards normal in their arguments, they're generally just pretending their beliefs are normal and trying to force them on you, usually with no basis
 
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Trunkage

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Wait, what now?

I somehow missed when marrying bridges became the new fire and brimstone threat. Last I heard it was "If Gay Marriage becomes legal in all 50 states, straight marriage becomes illegal".
Sorry, jokes between Aussies

We just dumped a 'well spoken' Mike Pence-esque prime minister who had a best friend as a top tier Q poster here and repeated their words, even in an apology for institutional crimes against orphans and perhaps did legislative crimes like Trump and was trying to get a religious freedom law passed like Trump which lead to a religious schools banning gay and trans kids which caused such a backlash from its own community that the principal was fired

We have had a wild few years here and if it wasn't for everywhere going batshit crazy at same time, it might be more global. But compared to what's happening in China, the UK, Germany, Peru, the US, Venezuala, Myanmar and Russia... we get left out
 

tstorm823

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Oooook. And you'd be happy to tell him he's being "contradictory" in wanting it, that he's not a man and therefore he shouldn't want it?
No. Do you really not get what I'm saying?

"I want to be a man, but men have penises and I don't, therefore I would like gain a penis" is a logically sound train of thought.
"I am a man without a penis, because reproductive organs don't define manhood, but also I need one to affirm my manhood" is not logically sound.
I already said what it is. There's a strong relationship between the two. But it is not absolute, unchangeable, or always static. Why do you automatically discount anything outside these absurd extremes?
Because "there is a strong relationship between the two" doesn't mean anything. The "absurd extremes" are just the two ways they might relate: causation or correlation. If sex causes gender, if the two are interdependent, then there's a sense to changing sex to change gender, but there's also no way to be transgender. If they just correlate, if they are fundamentally independent concepts, then there is no logic to changing sex for gender. You want some magical in between space where the two are intrinsically tied sometimes but not others.
No, I'm getting information from A) my genuine interaction with the queer community, which is undoubtedly significantly greater than yours; and B) testimony from practitioners that I've read online.
Your genuine interactions don't mean anything. Your queer friends aren't experts on untested treatments, no matter their personal experiences.

The testimony of the practitioners online are "stupid people on the internet". And also probably where the queer community is getting their info from, so really you just said stupid people on the internet twice. When they say "reversible", all it means is that the effect of blocking hormones stops. If a person with normal hormone levels takes puberty blockers, the levels drop dramatically. Then when they stop taking them, the levels return to normal. That is the full extent of "reversibility".

But what actually happens? A normal man experiencing puberty has testosterone ramp up over a few years to peak around the age of 20. If I took blockers from age 14 to age 20, does the ramp up start there, or does it instantly spike to peak levels? If there is a sudden spike, does the emotional whiplash of puberty get more severe by happening all at once? If it is as gradual an increase as normal, what are the social ramifications of experiencing late onset puberty? If you take blockers past where you would peak normally, do you still hit the same high? Or do your hormone levels return to what would be normal, which could already be declining testosterone. If you don't experience that peak, what is the permanent impact on your physical and mental development?

Literally nobody knows the answers to half these questions. Those practitioners online are probably motivated by politics and definitely motivated by money, and they're idiots.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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religious schools banning gay and trans kids which caused such a backlash from its own community that the principal was fired
Which I do find hilarious... like, did they really think people are paying tens of thousands of dollars a year to send their kids to these school for religious indoctrination? Way to completely misunderstand your place in Australian society.
 
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Silvanus

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No. Do you really not get what I'm saying?

[...]

"I want to be a man, but men have penises and I don't, therefore I would like gain a penis" is a logically sound train of thought.
"I am a man without a penis, because reproductive organs don't define manhood, but also I need one to affirm my manhood" is not logically sound.
It's not inconsistent or illogical. Because a characteristic can be /associated/ with a gender (or sexual) identity without being /required/. The person in question doesn't "need one to affirm manhood". Once again you've ascribed that position rather than engaging with what was actually expressed. You'll notice than plenty of trans men don't seek physical transition at all-- because its not required.

"I am a man without a male body. I would feel more comfortable with a physically male body, because the former is associated with the latter and it fits with what I personally wish for". No inconsistency required.

Because "there is a strong relationship between the two" doesn't mean anything. The "absurd extremes" are just the two ways they might relate: causation or correlation. If sex causes gender, if the two are interdependent, then there's a sense to changing sex to change gender, but there's also no way to be transgender. If they just correlate, if they are fundamentally independent concepts, then there is no logic to changing sex for gender. You want some magical in between space where the two are intrinsically tied sometimes but not others.
No magic required, because there's nothing "intrinsic" about it.

There's literally no reason you'd conclude the two could only possibly relate in one of those two ways. That's not true in the slightest. And, in fact, even tertiary awareness of biology would tell you that doesn't hold.

For instance. The ability to incubate a child is heavily associated with the female physical sex. But not exclusively. Not absolutely. Exceptions exist. If you're here to say there's "no relationship" because it's not absolute, then you're a liar. But equally, if you're here to say it's an absolute and inseparable relationship, you're also a liar.

Your genuine interactions don't mean anything. Your queer friends aren't experts on untested treatments, no matter their personal experiences.

The testimony of the practitioners online are "stupid people on the internet". And also probably where the queer community is getting their info from, so really you just said stupid people on the internet twice. When they say "reversible", all it means is that the effect of blocking hormones stops. If a person with normal hormone levels takes puberty blockers, the levels drop dramatically. Then when they stop taking them, the levels return to normal. That is the full extent of "reversibility".
So they.... stop the treatment and the effects reverse. Yes, that's whats meant by reversible.

Personal experience of the process combined with professional experience as a practitioner are worth more than the prejudicial assumptions of people with zero relevant experience or expertise. I don't give a shit about any insistence that your sources must know just as much, honestly. It's bollocks.
 
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tstorm823

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For instance. The ability to incubate a child is heavily associated with the female physical sex. But not exclusively.
The ability to incubate a child does in fact exclusively belong to the female sex.
 

Terminal Blue

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Just stop with the identities! Stop trying to design yourself to fit a social category. That's an option.
If it's an option, you do it.

Except.. you didn't design yourself to fit a social category did you. Instead, you let other people design you to fit a social category. You let yourself believe that a small lump of flesh determined some fundamental truth of who you were. You couldn't even manage to question the utterly nonsensical premise of that imposed identity. You think of yourself as a man, but you can't even really explain to me what a man is.

But to answer the question. No. I don't think I will. I was born into the same world you were. I was raised in a similar culture to the one you were. I was fed approximately the same ideas about sex and gender that you were. Those ideas are as much a part of me as they are of you. I can't unsee them any more than you can. I interpret the sex and gender of people I pass on the street and who I know nothing about, because I know the social "language" by which sex and gender are communicated. That is what it means to be a human being living in a society of human beings, our languages and the concepts they contain are not solely our own, they are given to us by others. That is what it means for something to be socially learned, or a "social construct".

There is no option to step outside of this. There is no way to unlearn the socially learned knowledge that makes up the foundation of our understanding of the world. Even acknowledging it's not real isn't enough to make it unintelligible. What you can do, and what I think all people do to one extent or another, is to take that "prison" of imposed identity and turn it into a home. We all learn to play and express ourselves even in languages we learned from other people, and the language of sex and gender is no exception.

It can be hard, which I think is why some people are more able to do it than others, but it's the only real option that we have.

That child does not exist.
I am describing a case reported on by another therapist who, generally, was quite supportive of the authors of the study you cited.

All of the stuff about sex and identity is projection onto children, but children don't have identities unless you teach them to.
Which you will.

Unless you deprive your children of verbal communication (which is neglect) they will learn your language, and they will learn the concepts that exist in your language, and they will build their little identities out of them, just as you did once. You don't need to teach them anything, millions of years of evolution have molded them into unstoppable little machines for social learning.

It also raises the question of why you would want to deprive children of identity in the first place. When a person fails to develop a stable sense of identity, we describe that person as having borderline personality disorder, which is a truly, truly horrible condition to have and nothing anyone should want to inflict on anyone.

All the weird things people do in their teen years happen then because that's the point in life people look to define their identity. A kindergartener playing with dolls doesn't understand that kind of thing at all. They aren't exploring identities, they aren't trying to find or define themselves, they're just doing what they feel like.
I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong, and horrifyingly wrong.

Play is incredibly important to children. It's so important that depriving them of it not only affects their mental, emotional and social health, but also has a negative effect on their brain development. It is the most important arena in which they learn cognitive and social skills.

Play is the one arena of a child's life in which they have agency. Outside play they don't really get to be individuals very often, so it should be incredibly obvious that play is incredibly important to a child's exploration of who they are.

You don't know what that is like, any more than I know what it's like for a cis child to go through puberty. I am one person, I know only my own experiences. You are one person, you know only your own experiences. Your singular experience isn't evidence of anything.
It's still more evidence than you have for anything you believe on this topic, and it would be a start. I'm not the only person you could ask.

Also, I know you think saying things like this makes you sound smart and rational, but I'm afraid the reverse is true. Smart people generally understand the importance and utility of detailed accounts of individual experiences, particularly if the goal is ultimately to help individuals.

That's one of the many logical failures of transgender theory: how could someone possibly know they feel like the other sex, when the only experience they've ever had is that of the sex that they are?
Sexes don't exist, remember. I thought you were above all our primitive notions of identity..

Real answer: this is why you should actually ask people, instead of just making stupid assumptions. The world is full of people who could explain gender dysphoria to you. The only reason I'm not doing it now is because I refuse to air genuine pain for the sake of your fun.

It would be wildly presumptuous for me to say "I'm a man, so I know what men feel like", it would be way beyond the bounds of reason for me to say I know what women feel like.
Again, men and women don't exist. Those are identities. Keep up. Also..

No. Do you really not get what I'm saying?

"I want to be a man, but men have penises and I don't, therefore I would like gain a penis" is a logically sound train of thought.
"I am a man without a penis, because reproductive organs don't define manhood, but also I need one to affirm my manhood" is not logically sound.
If you genuinely believed it would be presumptuous of you to claim to know how a man feels, you would also understand that there is a difference between your manhood and manhood in general, and you would therefore understand that the same is true of everyone else as well.

Again, these are imposed identities, but we make them our own. Identity formation is that process of turning social meaning into individual meaning, and it's different for each person. Your manhood necessitating that you have a penis does not mean that mine does, it just means (in this hypothetical scenario) you care about your penis more than I care about mine. That's not good or bad, it's not morally wrong to care about things other people don't, it just is.

You answered your question: in puberty, people struggle with issues of identity. Then they reach adulthood, regain some stability in their hormones, and are left with a stronger sense of self having lived through those struggles. Puberty is uncomfortable, but it is temporary, and is how you reach adulthood.
That's not an explanation for anything.

Again, what is the mechanism. How does this work? What hormones are we talking about? What are their effects? How does a cognitive phenomenon such as identity proceed from the effects of hormones?
 
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Baffle

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Hm. They deleted the original tweet yet it is strangely showing as not deleted in this website's post preview function. And final post. 🤨🧐 Hmsies.🤔
The willingness of some people to publicly shit their pants over the strikes affecting them in the tiniest of ways continues to surprise me. You'd think I'd get used to it.
 
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McElroy

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The ability to incubate a child does in fact exclusively belong to the female sex.
I imagine the argument against this is that there are intersex women with no gamete production who could incubate an IVF child in their own womb. Maybe a couple of births per year globally occur this way (I'd guess).
 

Buyetyen

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While people change their names every now and then, a "Jessica" is a prototypical woman in this case.
Yes, but how would I differentiate it from, say, a Jennifer or a Sara? What would make it stand out from a Morgan or an Avery?
 

Buyetyen

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The cashier chose Jessica so you must ask them about it.
Or maybe it's none of our damn business. That's the point I'm trying to get across here. Why give a shit what someone's name is? There's no essence to a name, it's just a word we use to designate individuals. If that cashier is a Jessica, what difference does it make to you?