Hogwarts Legacy - Whimsical Wizardry

TheMysteriousGX

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The majority of the stories deal with these issues. The concept of blood purity alone is foreshadowed in the first book, and outright exposed in the second.
I must have missed the part where killing the murder snake unleashed by Nazi House's namesake did literally anything to reduce the amount of wizard eugenics floating around. Hell, it barely sanctioned Nazi House
And you still haven't explained what The Rise of Skywalker has to do with anything.
A comparison to "it was on Pottermore"
 
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Hawki

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I must have missed the part where killing the murder snake unleashed by Nazi House's namesake did literally anything to reduce the amount of wizard eugenics floating around. Hell, it barely sanctioned Nazi House
Which is portrayed as a bad thing.

You understand that's bad, right? That the sentiments behind it are bad? That are shown to be bad every single time?

A comparison to "it was on Pottermore"
Everything in that tweet is in the film itself.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Hufflepuff doesn't really have weirdos, and if they did, they certainly don't have a monopoly on them - Luna's a Ravenclaw for instance.



That's assuming that Hagrid's meant to be considered an unbiased source of information in regards to the topic. Even when I first read it, I didn't take that line literally. Hagrid's already shown himself to be generally distrustful of Muggles by this point, has already declared Hogwarts to be the best in the business, and doesn't defend Hufflepuff, only saying that Hufflepuff would be a better house for Harry to be in than Slytherin.

Slytherin has turned out more dark wizards than the other houses, but "more" isn't the same as "only."



There's a chicken and egg scenario there however, since the houses are organized in a way that students spend most of their time in their own house. When setting up the first book, that would be possible, from later books, it's much harder.



Da fuq?

Oh, wait, after the hadozee "controversy," why am I not surprised?



First, the goblins aren't evil ipso facto. There's certainly individual goblins who you could call evil (like humans), but not as a species.

Second, the whole "goblins are Jews" nonsense might actually have a leg to stand on if they WERE evil, but they're explicitly not. You haven't read the books, but what's so baffling about this is that the series does have its own equivalent of anti-semitism, namely blood purity, and especially in the seventh book, where Nazi-esque propeganda towards "mudbloods" is laid on thick. I'd say it was evident, but I've also seen people say there should be a Jewish character to comment on the similarities, because subtlety is for twats I guess (not that the similarities are subtle to begin with).



Yes.



I had to type and retype this response as I decided how deep into the rabbit hole I wanted to go, but I'll try and answer those questions and those alone:

-The whole "HP is anti-semitic" thing came up some point after the series had ended (maybe there were rumblings of it before, that's when it came into vogue) alongside a whole slew of other accusations. I've given my thoughts on these things over the years, but on the whole "goblin question," I've given my stance on it above.

-The idea of HP being "anti-trans" is something that seems to stem entirely from the Rowling controversy, because I can't think of anything in the books that suggests this. The only exception to this is that there's a dearth of LGBT characters, so this argument follows the line of "absence of x is because of animosity to x" (to cite a personal example, I've been accused of genocide because a oneshot I wrote didn't have any LGBT character in it). But apart from that, either in text or subtext, HP has nothing to say on the subject.

It actually occurred to me while writing this, and I'm going to postulate the following that how you feel about HP really depends on how much you feel about authoratorial intent. For instance, if you believe in analyzing a text in the context of the author's intention, then claiming that HP promotes anti-semitism relies on the idea that despite the books having Nazi/Jewish stand-ins and reviling the former, it is, in fact, secretly pro-anti-semitic because of the goblins, which requires various leaps of logic to make the claim work.

If, on the other hand, authoratorial intent is meaningless, then any meaning can be imparted from HP. It doesn't matter what the books are saying about prejudice, the user can impart their own meaning from it. It doesn't matter that the books don't broach sexuality or religion at all, the absence of these things can be seen as antagonistic. It's why people can claim that the series is Islamophobic given the lack of Muslim characters, despite the fact that religion, real or otherwise, has never been addressed in the books, period. So when you have people claiming that "HP belongs to the fans," while this is an absurd statement in isolation, when you consider the approach to authorship it stems from, it's easier to understand the sentiment.



I fully agree with this.



That's highly debatable.

HP certainly has wish fulfillment aspects, and I agree that's part of its popularity. However, the wish fulfillment aspects are definitely less prevalent by book 4. Harry's maturing, the audience is maturing, the tone's getting darker, the stakes are higher, etc.

As for the debate of it being a functioning world, again, I don't really agree. Even in the first book itself, we get a good sense of the rules of the setting.



As someone who works in libraries, I can assure you that HP is still popular across the age spectrum.



I can't say I fully agree, but it's not really for the reasons you might think.

"Death of the author" works fine as an intellectual exercise, and there's certainly been cases where I've interpreted the themes of a work in one way, only to learn later that the author meant something different (chances are that's true for all of us). When it comes to analyzing texts, I don't think one should do so without reference to the author, at least if they've gone on record saying what they intended. For instance:

Author: I wrote this to say X.

Reader: I interpreted this as saying Y.

Is the author or reader correct? Can they be correct? Are the interpretations equally valid? You can make a good argument that a work is free to be interpreted as the reader wishes, regardless of the author's intentions, but I don't think we should always, ipso facto, try and pretend that authorship isn't a real process. Even if you feel the text said Y when the author intended for it to say X, the view of the author should at least be encouraged.

Things are even more extreme in HP because there's a swelling idea of the series "belonging to the fans." I really dislike this argument, regardless of the IP. Fans don't own IPs. I've written for FFN, I've administered wikis, I've done various things, including in HP itself, none of this stuff grants me ownership. To the letter and spirit of the law, I firmly believe that ownership lies with the creator(s). This applies to Rowling, this applies to Disney.



I'd say the political opinions of the author are valid when they're reflected in the work. If they're not found in the work, they're generally irrelevant to the work in question.

I say generally, because one can sometimes draw a link between an author's beliefs/actions/history, and see how they might be reflected in the work itself, even if it's not directly a theme, but that isn't the case here.



This is a bizzare take.

First, ask anyone who's read HP what they liked most about the series. I've never seen anyone cite the asortment of candy, or anything along those lines. I'm sure people remember the existence of Bertie Bots Every Flavour Beans and Buterbeer, but "the enduring images?" What?

Second, if we're looking at this from an in-universe perspective, anyone familiar with magic is going to see magic as mundane. This is a circular argument. To Harry, everything is wondrous at first, but to people who've grown up with magic? That would be just normal.

Third, and I've seen this argument pop up from time to time (usually from the left), it displays a general contempt for abundence. Wizards have access to consumer products? How terrible. Absolutely terrible. How dare wizards be able to buy themselves neat stuff and not use their magic for subsistance purposes only. Those cretins!



What?

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense - a core theme of HP is the opposite of what you've just said.

Again, the books aren't even subtle about it. To quote Dumbledore in book 5 (paraphrased), "The fountain told a lie. We wizards have treated other magical creatures poorly for too long, and now we're paying the price of it." The guide to the Cursed Child stage play even spells out what's obvious for any reader, that if Tom Riddle had grown up with people who loved him, his life could have turned out very differently (the cycle of sorrow being repeated through Delphi).



It absolutely is a controversial take, or at least, a nonsensical one.

To claim that the house system is producing "fascists" (I assume you mean Death Eaters), you'd have to demonstrate that the ratio of students to Death Eaters is high. Except that isn't the case. The house system has operated for over 1000 years in-universe, how many "fascists" has it produced, and what's the proportion of them to the total no. of students. Even confining this to the timeframe of the books, count every DE character and compare them to every non-DE character, and one has much, MUCH more than the other.

I think one can reasonably critique the house system in of itself, to the idea of sorting children based on personality traits rather than mixing and matching for instance, but that's hardly a "fascist machine."
(Replying only to what was directed to me) You misunderstand me. The FIRST book was wish fulfilment for kids. Once the story was a success, a series with a world that was created with fast and loose rules suddenly had to tighten them and slow down but the FOUNDATION was still poor for what the other books needed.

Rowling managed to hold everything together while the series was running but once it ended and there was no more potential for "clarification" or fleshing out, the holes and inconsistencies became more apparent.
 

Thaluikhain

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Which is portrayed as a bad thing.

You understand that's bad, right? That the sentiments behind it are bad? That are shown to be bad every single time?
I think you two are working from different definitions of "dealt with", to mean "was included or discussed in the book" or "was a problem the characters resolved in their fictional world".
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Which is portrayed as a bad thing.

You understand that's bad, right? That the sentiments behind it are bad? That are shown to be bad every single time?
Fucking and? Yeah, obviously unleashing murder snakes trained by racists is bad. Didn't do literally anything to fix Nazi House though.

Everything in that tweet is in the film itself.
It's really not
I think you two are working from different definitions of "dealt with", to mean "was included or discussed in the book" or "was a problem the characters resolved in their fictional world".
Yeah, that, apparently.
 
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Hawki

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Fucking and? Yeah, obviously unleashing murder snakes trained by racists is bad. Didn't do literally anything to fix Nazi House though.
Your wholesale importing of terminology aside, Slytherin is not a "Nazi house." You'd have to explain the existence of protagonists from Slytherin, and the existence of antagonists from outside Slytherin.

It's true that Slytherin has the lion's share of antagonists, especially within the main septology, it isn't a 1:1 thing. And if you still go by that belief, you're apparently fine with the concept of guilt by association.

It's really not
Really? You seriously want to claim that?

Okay, let's go over it:

-"The Sith fleet was created by Sith cultists on Exegol" (that's established - the Sith Eternal was seen on Exegol, the fleet is established as Palpatine's creation, Palpatine leads the Sith Eternal)

-"Who indoctrinated their children with Sith values and trained them to become officers, mechanics, and soldiers for the First Order" (this is never outright stated, but it's demonstrated in the film itself, such as the utilization of Sith troopers)

Everything that the tweet says is in the film itself, either explicitly or implicitly.

I think you two are working from different definitions of "dealt with", to mean "was included or discussed in the book" or "was a problem the characters resolved in their fictional world".
It can be both, believe it or not.

To be clear, I doubt blood purity prejudice is going to disappear within the setting anytime soon, but lots of stuff that's raised is canonically addressed.

Then again, I don't think we're even operating on the same wavelength, per the Star Wars stuff. I don't even like Rise of Skywalker, but this is stuff that's in the film itself that GX is claiming isn't present.
 

Gordon_4

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Your wholesale importing of terminology aside, Slytherin is not a "Nazi house." You'd have to explain the existence of protagonists from Slytherin, and the existence of antagonists from outside Slytherin.

It's true that Slytherin has the lion's share of antagonists, especially within the main septology, it isn't a 1:1 thing. And if you still go by that belief, you're apparently fine with the concept of guilt by association.



Really? You seriously want to claim that?

Okay, let's go over it:

-"The Sith fleet was created by Sith cultists on Exegol" (that's established - the Sith Eternal was seen on Exegol, the fleet is established as Palpatine's creation, Palpatine leads the Sith Eternal)

-"Who indoctrinated their children with Sith values and trained them to become officers, mechanics, and soldiers for the First Order" (this is never outright stated, but it's demonstrated in the film itself, such as the utilization of Sith troopers)

Everything that the tweet says is in the film itself, either explicitly or implicitly.



It can be both, believe it or not.

To be clear, I doubt blood purity prejudice is going to disappear within the setting anytime soon, but lots of stuff that's raised is canonically addressed.

Then again, I don't think we're even operating on the same wavelength, per the Star Wars stuff. I don't even like Rise of Skywalker, but this is stuff that's in the film itself that GX is claiming isn't present.
Slytherin’s reputation might have been helped if it didn’t have a colossal asshole with as many chips as his shoulders would support as head of house and if there has been any scenes where it’s Prefects or Head Boy/Girl pulled Draco and his cronies up on their shit. Even once to demonstrate that someone else thought Draco was a little snot. But either due to a lack of foresight or more likely the overall story never called for it, Slytherin house members are either in lock, or indeed goose, step with the Death Eaters or seemingly oblivious to the super obvious clown shoe wearing proto-fascists they share space with for like eight months a year, for up to seven years.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Yeah? And? Sorry for figuring that when somebody says "the bad guys gain massive power from X, a flaw in our unequal society", solving X should be the way to solve the problem

Great. Still makes for a bad story. And because Prequel, we know those problems are going to persist after this story regardless of events, so...
View attachment 7911
I'd argue there doesn't need to be some everything tied up happy ending in Harry Potter.

The lessons were learned by the characters in the story.

The idea of at least some-on fighting for change or realising the reason for change is how it ends.

It's not the "Everything was super fine from then on" ending it's a "And the future looks brighter and more hopeful" ending.

The time skip was just to tie up more the personal stories.
 

Silvanus

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They do, but the thing about that is that if you do criticize them. People will call you a piece of shit.
Haven't seen that happen at all for genuine, valid criticisms.

I have seen rebuffs and counterarguments when the criticisms themselves are just moaning about them producing stuff with 'woke' qualities.

I think the mob is abusive on both sides. And both sides have varying degrees of severity.
As online rent-a-mobs go, the LGBT ones are extremely mild.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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I must have missed the part where killing the murder snake unleashed by Nazi House's namesake did literally anything to reduce the amount of wizard eugenics floating around. Hell, it barely sanctioned Nazi House

A comparison to "it was on Pottermore"
OK it's been a while since I read the books but to go fully into it.

The first set of attacks by the "murder snake" actually lead to people being murdered and while they didn't punish the house they did kick out a person they thought was responsible for the murders - Hagrid - Yes we know it was Tom Riddle who did it now but in the continuity Hagrid at the time was a student and was raising a dangerous creature of his own (The Giant Spider from later books) said spider was blamed for the murder and Hagrid expelled for bringing it into the castle and raising it but suspecting more was going on a certain other older student (Dumbledore) eventually tried to make things right it's strongly implied he helped Hagrid get his job as groundskeeper.

The actual Murdersnake was only a rumour until Harry proved it was real.

Slytherin’s reputation might have been helped if it didn’t have a colossal asshole with as many chips as his shoulders would support as head of house and if there has been any scenes where it’s Prefects or Head Boy/Girl pulled Draco and his cronies up on their shit. Even once to demonstrate that someone else thought Draco was a little snot. But either due to a lack of foresight or more likely the overall story never called for it, Slytherin house members are either in lock, or indeed goose, step with the Death Eaters or seemingly oblivious to the super obvious clown shoe wearing proto-fascists they share space with for like eight months a year, for up to seven years.
Yeh but also worth pointing out Crabbe and Goyle were basically goons who just went along with the plans.

Malfoy before the first Battle of Hogwarts actually is shown having doubts but he's trying to live up to his Fathers expectations and because him and Harry have a deep seated hatred of one another in his moment of doubt and Weakness as Malfoy turns as sees of all people the person he'd least want to see (Harry Potter his enemy) he tries to start a duel with Harry and Harry promptly uses a pretty nasty spell that slices Draco open.

No-one was there to talk to Draco and Dumbledore suspected as much but knew there was little he could do hence sending Snape to basically protect Draco.

In deeper lore stuff there's very much a reason Draco is seeing his kid off alone in the epilogue and it's not cause he's an asshole.

Some of the stuff with Snape is also meant to show there are multiple perspectives to things. Harry's Dad in Snape's view was an asshole.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Haven't seen that happen at all for genuine, valid criticisms.

I have seen rebuffs and counterarguments when the criticisms themselves are just moaning about them producing stuff with 'woke' qualities.
*Points to the massive lot of criticism for TLOU2 and how ever valid criticisms about Abby were boiled down to "You just are sexist and hate women who aren't sex objects based on societal beauty standards" which also entirely ignore a sector of people who have a muscle girl / femdom fetish*


As online rent-a-mobs go, the LGBT ones are extremely mild.
Was this before or after some of them threatened to attack people who dared go to launch events for the game?

What you see with for lack of a better term "Woke" mobs is the tip of the iceberg as to how far things go because so much stuff is done behind the proverbial curtains with people going after employers or people linked to the individual.
 

Piscian

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So wait is hogwarts actually transphobic or are we just doing the orson scott card thing? Sorry I'm like way out of the loop here.
 

BrawlMan

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So wait is hogwarts actually transphobic
No. There's even an option to make your character trans. It's just certain people got a bug up their asses and attacking people for just playing and enjoying a game.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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So wait is hogwarts actually transphobic or are we just doing the orson scott card thing? Sorry I'm like way out of the loop here.
The Orson Scott Card thing only actually more stupid this time because he at least was supporting and throwing his money behind political organisations while J.K.Rowling is paying for a heated pool and just tweeting stuff every couple of months.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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The game's charming so far. Carried by its atmosphere, which is what I expected. What little combat and puzzle solving I got to do so far was utilitarian at best but it's nice to get to spend some time in that world.
 
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Piscian

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No. There's even an option to make your character trans. It's just certain people got up bug up their asses and attacking people for just playing and enjoying a game.
Sometimes I worry that people are making a life out of just engaging people on the internet. Like I totally understand talking to people on forums or reddit in your spare time, but I worry sometimes with things like this that people spend way too much time just being angry on the internet instead of doing..well anything else. I mean.. ..this is a real nothing burger. Like legitimately.

7-60123.png
 

Silvanus

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I must have missed the part where killing the murder snake unleashed by Nazi House's namesake did literally anything to reduce the amount of wizard eugenics floating around.
Wait, yes it did. The Basilisk was hunting 'half-bloods', so killing it prevented their murder, and prevented Hogwarts becoming pureblood-only.

The books are quite clear that the 'pureblood supremacist' ideology is pervasive, dangerous, and worth fighting.
 
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Baffle

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in a few decades Rowling will be dead, her views are gonna be regarded as an unfortunate and all too common product of a less enlightened time and people
Was she just jealous of Lovecraft after all?
Sometimes I worry that people are making a life out of just engaging people on the internet. Like I totally understand talking to people on forums or reddit in your spare time, but I worry sometimes with things like this that people spend way too much time just being angry on the internet instead of doing..well anything else. I mean.. ..this is a real nothing burger. Like legitimately.

View attachment 7912
Hobbies are quite expensive tbf.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Your wholesale importing of terminology aside, Slytherin is not a "Nazi house." You'd have to explain the existence of protagonists from Slytherin, and the existence of antagonists from outside Slytherin.

It's true that Slytherin has the lion's share of antagonists, especially within the main septology, it isn't a 1:1 thing. And if you still go by that belief, you're apparently fine with the concept of guilt by association.
There were no Slytherin protagonists and you can be an antagonist without being a nazi, sorted. Like, you get that the founder of the house, who's house is guided by his principles, was a huge eugenics racist who hid a eugenics murder snake on campus with the intent of doing a genocide, right? Do they bust up Slytherin and try to integrate it's students with normal people to get them to touch grass? Do they bring in therapists or anything to try and deradicalize the students? Or is it business as usual until the dark wizards show up to do a school shooting and the Slytherins either flee or join in?
 
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