The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

[CriticalGaming]

Despite or maybe because of my bitching about various ER mechanics and the critical circle-jerking over this game, I am mulling over starting a new ER game, lol. This is the cycle of FromSoftware self-punishment.

I just keep wondering... am I the weird one that thinks so much of this game is broken when it's so beloved? Also I'm kind of not really into anything else right now on my PS5.

If I do start another game I think it's going to be faith-heavy. I can't deal with all the horrible melee, I'm gonna need to do some magic.

I also did not like ER at all. I think the fundamentals are all twisted and what people praise (the open world) is the very thing that ruins this game at a fundamental level.

Can someone tell me how the exploration in ER is better than the exploration in any other Souls game? Can anyone claim ER's level design is better than any other souls game? Can anyone claim the bosses are better than other Soulsborne bosses?

At best you could say that ER has the best build diversity and more tools to play with.

 

[sXeth]

I also did not like ER at all. I think the fundamentals are all twisted and what people praise (the open world) is the very thing that ruins this game at a fundamental level.

Can someone tell me how the exploration in ER is better than the exploration in any other Souls game? Can anyone claim ER's level design is better than any other souls game? Can anyone claim the bosses are better than other Soulsborne bosses?

At best you could say that ER has the best build diversity and more tools to play with.

I'd argue the exploration stuff was only a big thing in Dark Souls (1) anyways. Dark Souls 1 was intriguing because you could do the game in some dramatically different pathlines and orders. Which would always boil down to generally the same game but a proverbial water-cooler day by day might have people being "wow"

Demons Souls and DS2 both used hub structures. While you could obviously do them in any order you liked, it didn't feel like a reward or secret any more then when you choose a different boss on Mega Man.

DS3 didn't really have any of the above, all in all its pretty linear and the "secret" area is basically a wiki-required one (hell at this point I'm pretty sure Dev's just build some of these things in and leak out the solution anonymously to make it look like it was organically found.


Elden Ring obviously has what could be called "secret" content, thats fairly expansive. But also not really by open world standards. No one even vaguely playing it like an open world game is going to miss the Underground, Carian Manor, the Dragonbarrow, etc. The Snowfields and ensuing things are literally a quest given to you by the head NPC of the base area. The Palace of Blood is about the only thing I'd say is clearly wrapped as a bit of a secret (and even that requires ignoring the quest line of literally the first dude you meet). As alternate progressions go, we're back to the "choose your boss" mega man idea again, and that only lasts for the first 4 options

 

[CriticalGaming]

I'd argue the exploration stuff was only a big thing in Dark Souls (1) anyways.

Not DS3, Sekiro, or Bloodborne? Ds2 I understand as that was a bit linear, but how can you leave the others out?

One of the big problems with the Souls games as a series in general though is that exploration is often for nothing. You explore and maybe you find a weapon, but you've already likely invested in your current weapon and stat set up that unless you find a weapon early game you probably aren't going to bother switching up your style randomly. And this is further an issue in ER where 99% of anything you'll find is useless to what you're currently doing. While you can respec, most players don't change up their player style on a whim once they've got something working. Maybe later playthroughs they go back and try a new weapon but that isn't exploring anymore since you know where to go to get whatever it is you want.

That being said, I believe that the other souls games don't suffer as much as ER ring because there are less items to find, which means you're more likely to find an upgrade material that's useful, or a cooler piece of armor, or covenant item which ER doesn't have. How did they make a massive world but not think to have factions within it that the player could join and level up in? This further adds to the emptiness of ER's world and design. There are no real secondary things to do in ER beyond Ranni's quest. In Dark Souls games there are quests, but better yet there are factions that all ask you to do different things for them. Invade players to kill them, invade to protect, join to help kill bosses, collecting items for turn ins. It's surface level sure, but it's SOMETHING to do beyond reach the end of the game.

Demons Souls and DS2 both used hub structures.

They all have Hubs, what's the point?

DS3 didn't really have any of the above, all in all its pretty linear and the "secret" area is basically a wiki-required one (hell at this point I'm pretty sure Dev's just build some of these things in and leak out the solution anonymously to make it look like it was organically found.

DS3 has plenty of branching paths, AND it has a hub. What are you talking about. Does Firelink Shrine mean nothing?

 

[sXeth]

Not DS3, Sekiro, or Bloodborne? Ds2 I understand as that was a bit linear, but how can you leave the others out?

One of the big problems with the Souls games as a series in general though is that exploration is often for nothing. You explore and maybe you find a weapon, but you've already likely invested in your current weapon and stat set up that unless you find a weapon early game you probably aren't going to bother switching up your style randomly. And this is further an issue in ER where 99% of anything you'll find is useless to what you're currently doing. While you can respec, most players don't change up their player style on a whim once they've got something working. Maybe later playthroughs they go back and try a new weapon but that isn't exploring anymore since you know where to go to get whatever it is you want.

That being said, I believe that the other souls games don't suffer as much as ER ring because there are less items to find, which means you're more likely to find an upgrade material that's useful, or a cooler piece of armor, or covenant item which ER doesn't have. How did they make a massive world but not think to have factions within it that the player could join and level up in? This further adds to the emptiness of ER's world and design. There are no real secondary things to do in ER beyond Ranni's quest. In Dark Souls games there are quests, but better yet there are factions that all ask you to do different things for them. Invade players to kill them, invade to protect, join to help kill bosses, collecting items for turn ins. It's surface level sure, but it's SOMETHING to do beyond reach the end of the game.



They all have Hubs, what's the point?



DS3 has plenty of branching paths, AND it has a hub. What are you talking about. Does Firelink Shrine mean nothing?

Hub == Area form which you depart to distinct levels and complete them then return.

And no the token connection poins between DS2's doesn't change that. They're empty hallways that just serve to try and emulate the structure of DS1 without putting any thought or content or context to it.

While you do return to Firelink in DS1 and 3, the games general progression continues farther and farther out from it. You don't hit the end of a "spoke".

DS3 has a very set order to things, with one point where you can minimally choose between 1 of 2 (Anor Londo or the Giant King) but you still have to do both anyways. The handful of side branches again just dead end, they don't loop back into the main path at different points.

Elden Ring plays with the concept in the tiniest bit, but you have to either do the most illogical thing possible for the Volcano Manor shortcut, or deliberately ignore the game screaming at you to go to Stormveil castle for the underground one to really change the sequence.

Bloodborne you'll notice I rarely mention because at that point I was so bored with the whole series that I just blew through it in like a day and barely any of it left the remotest lasting impression. (I played it after DS3)

Sekiro I just don't include in the general realm of the Souls series, I wasn't a huge fan of it (and the combat system is blandy mcbland) but it was at least trying to be different so I give it some credit.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Hub == Area form which you depart to distinct levels and complete them then return.

And no the token connection poins between DS2's doesn't change that. They're empty hallways that just serve to try and emulate the structure of DS1 without putting any thought or content or context to it.

While you do return to Firelink in DS1 and 3, the games general progression continues farther and farther out from it. You don't hit the end of a "spoke".

DS3 has a very set order to things, with one point where you can minimally choose between 1 of 2 (Anor Londo or the Giant King) but you still have to do both anyways. The handful of side branches again just dead end, they don't loop back into the main path at different points.

Elden Ring plays with the concept in the tiniest bit, but you have to either do the most illogical thing possible for the Volcano Manor shortcut, or deliberately ignore the game screaming at you to go to Stormveil castle for the underground one to really change the sequence.

Bloodborne you'll notice I rarely mention because at that point I was so bored with the whole series that I just blew through it in like a day and barely any of it left the remotest lasting impression. (I played it after DS3)

Sekiro I just don't include in the general realm of the Souls series, I wasn't a huge fan of it (and the combat system is blandy mcbland) but it was at least trying to be different so I give it some credit.

I gotta be honest, I don't really know what you're trying to argue for though. In what regard are you defending ER?

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Not DS3, Sekiro, or Bloodborne? Ds2 I understand as that was a bit linear, but how can you leave the others out?

One of the big problems with the Souls games as a series in general though is that exploration is often for nothing. You explore and maybe you find a weapon, but you've already likely invested in your current weapon and stat set up that unless you find a weapon early game you probably aren't going to bother switching up your style randomly. And this is further an issue in ER where 99% of anything you'll find is useless to what you're currently doing. While you can respec, most players don't change up their player style on a whim once they've got something working. Maybe later playthroughs they go back and try a new weapon but that isn't exploring anymore since you know where to go to get whatever it is you want.

That being said, I believe that the other souls games don't suffer as much as ER ring because there are less items to find, which means you're more likely to find an upgrade material that's useful, or a cooler piece of armor, or covenant item which ER doesn't have. How did they make a massive world but not think to have factions within it that the player could join and level up in? This further adds to the emptiness of ER's world and design. There are no real secondary things to do in ER beyond Ranni's quest. In Dark Souls games there are quests, but better yet there are factions that all ask you to do different things for them. Invade players to kill them, invade to protect, join to help kill bosses, collecting items for turn ins. It's surface level sure, but it's SOMETHING to do beyond reach the end of the game.



They all have Hubs, what's the point?



DS3 has plenty of branching paths, AND it has a hub. What are you talking about. Does Firelink Shrine mean nothing?

I mean... I'm just over here nodding vigorously. I feel like you and I are the only two sane people left in this world lol

 

[BrawlMan]

We don’t have the time or money for it.

I never did.

 

[BrawlMan]

Can someone tell me how the exploration in ER is better than the exploration in any other Souls game? Can anyone claim ER's level design is better than any other souls game? Can anyone claim the bosses are better than other Soulsborne bosses?

​

 

[sXeth]

I gotta be honest, I don't really know what you're trying to argue for though. In what regard are you defending ER?

I wasn't? lol

I was actually supporting your point, before you tried to nitpick that support apart.

I've been bored with series since about halfway through DS2, mostly playing because people ask me to play with them. And profoundly unimpressed by what most people try and tell me are the strengths of the series as its stagnated more then Assassins Creed has in the same timeframe.


The combat is bland and repetitive, the only difficulty comes from when they turn up the speed to unnatural levels or otherwise detach the enemy from any concept of physics (mid air direction changes and autotracking lol)and that just turns into rote memorization akin to playing Guitar Hero on Expert. Every impact is the same boring paper-mache crunch sound they've had since the first one, and nigh on every weapon plays identically (I won't even bother critiquing magic gameplay, its basically a meme at this point in how overpowered the basic spell is, the interesting ones are all garbage effectiveness, and the rest are just weapons that cost slots/mp to use). The atmosphere is generic goth-fantasy with very little through thread or actual dynamics, and the lore is essentially an intern's workload writing hodge-podge descriptions wiht fantasy keywords that people have written thousands of hours of fanfiction of.


It was an interesting novelty and anomaly with potential to go further in 2011, which you could chalk up the lack of polish to their AAish status . In the ten years since they've done little to nothing with any of that and only barely polished out some of the jank. And mostly have just kept making the thing bigger and bigger when its ability not to outstay its welcome was one of its better qualities

 

[Xprimentyl]

And profoundly unimpressed by what most people try and tell me are the strengths of the series as its stagnated more then Assassins Creed has in the same timeframe.

Might wanna take this one to Hot Takes thread. If you or anyone anyone feels the FROM games are more stagnant than Assassins Creed has been since, welp, AC2 (nod to AC4 for actually changing things up for a moment,) that's a white-hot hot take. Are the FROM games somewhat formulaic? Yes, by design. But the very least, we can say they offer layers of complexity and nuance far and away better than Ubisoft's picking places in history and turning them into jungle gyms again, and again, and again ad nauseam.

 

[sXeth]

Might wanna take this one to Hot Takes thread. If you or anyone anyone feels the FROM games are more stagnant than Assassins Creed has been since, welp, AC2 (nod to AC4 for actually changing things up for a moment,) that's a white-hot hot take. Are the FROM games somewhat formulaic? Yes, by design. But the very least, we can say they offer layers of complexity and nuance far and away better than Ubisoft's picking places in history and turning them into jungle gyms again, and again, and again ad nauseam.

Its not a comparison of the mechanics of the two series, which are (beyond the base level of HAVE SWORDS, FIGHT THINGs) distinctly variant form each other, but the lack of any expansion upon or shift within their basic foundations for a period of literal years. Nor even a commendation to AC's changes over the years. But if I plop AC2 next to Odyssey you can tell the games apart by more then a layer of graphical fidelity, even with no knowledge of the franchise. The same could not be said if i dropped you in one of ER's catacombs and any given bonfire in Dark Souls 1.

In AC"s case their issue is generally not that the games remain identical, but the additions are often gimmicky (if not outright entire new game modes like AC4) and don't mesh well into the base layer, and that they seem to have no concept of building upon them, so by the next game its some new addition, so its just a hotswap of ideas rather then a progression. It has also failed spectacularly, such as Revelations or even Black Flag (which is divisive amongst the series fans) BECAUSE it is willing to take risks.

 

[CriticalGaming]

The same could not be said if i dropped you in one of ER's catacombs and any given bonfire in Dark Souls 1.

I gotta disagree there. Simply based on the fact that ER's movement, flow, and responsiveness is going to immediately far better than Dark Souls 1.

And then you have the argument that a game series doesn't have to be revolutionary or even dramatically improved between entries to still be good.

For example, Persona 3 and 4 have pretty much identical combat mechanics. But 4 is by far the better game because there is more at play than the baseline combat. And it's the same with Souls games. ER admittedly does have far more combat options for the player than anything before it. It's not changing up the formula as much as it's adding more and more layers to it. At the core it's the same, but it does have a lot more going on than before.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I also did not like ER at all. I think the fundamentals are all twisted and what people praise (the open world) is the very thing that ruins this game at a fundamental level.

Can someone tell me how the exploration in ER is better than the exploration in any other Souls game? Can anyone claim ER's level design is better than any other souls game? Can anyone claim the bosses are better than other Soulsborne bosses?

At best you could say that ER has the best build diversity and more tools to play with.

Hmm, could’ve sworn…*searches*

So that last paragraph here and another post a bit further down, guessing you spoke too soon?

Anyways, my personal opinion is from a mechanics, QoL, character build standpoint it’s easily the most playable of the “Souls” games overall (Sekiro is also a bit of an outlier with the action focus), and its biggest drawbacks are some repetitive content and some obnoxious balancing issues inherent with open world design. Although I’m one that still goes through RDR2 just to roam the landscape and fuck around, so the size of ER never really bothered me. Torrent adds much to traversal and verticality, instantly summonable, jump attacks on dismount, there’s an actual jump button (Sekiro again being the only outlier).

Exploration for me was ultimately better because it felt more organic and granted more player agency than past games, where you were more limited to finding things along the same path of progression. It still has clever but-by-now-kinda-gimmicky unlocked loops around Stormveil, Volcano Manor, Leyndell, Farum, rooftop platforming all over Raya Academy, the inverted school tower or whatever it is, the way some of the underground stuff connects and brings you to different parts of the overworld, the Ruined Precipice “back door” shortcut up to Altus and other open world, etc.

To put it another way, would people be as dismissive of these signature FROM design elements in ER if they weren’t already done a half dozen times before? It’s mostly what I really can’t wait to see in terms of where they go with Armored Core, seeing as it’s objectively going to be their biggest departure from their comfort zone yet.

 

[CriticalGaming]

So that last paragraph here and another post a bit further down, guessing you spoke too soon?

Platinuming a game changes a man.

Anyways, my personal opinion is from a mechanics, QoL, character build standpoint it’s easily the most playable of the “Souls” games overall

This is what I see a lot of people say all over the internet. ER is so "playable" and like....ok sure. It's nice that the game is playable, but that doesn't mean the game itself is good. It just means it's playable.

Exploration for me was ultimately better because it felt more organic and granted more player agency than past games, where you were more limited to finding things along the same path of progression.

The exploration is organic because the player literally has no choice. What are your options, run face first into Margit who will fuck you up? Or more likely the Sentinel Knight who will fuck you up. The game forces you to explore because the obvious places will fuck you up, so it promotes "organic" exploration by not giving the player any other choice but to find shit on their own. I don't think this is the win people try to make it out to be.

 

[sXeth]

I gotta disagree there. Simply based on the fact that ER's movement, flow, and responsiveness is going to immediately far better than Dark Souls 1.

And then you have the argument that a game series doesn't have to be revolutionary or even dramatically improved between entries to still be good.

For example, Persona 3 and 4 have pretty much identical combat mechanics. But 4 is by far the better game because there is more at play than the baseline combat. And it's the same with Souls games.

Thats certainly a statement. But you yourself are arguing that the Souls games aren't doing exploration, so wheres the "more at play". The copy-paste grey gothic fantasy? The non existent plot? The world building that could've been by an AI bot told write item descriptions. The pitiful and occasional attempts at puzzles. There *are* Dark Souls lore afficionados, but they're so niche and far off the main discourse of the games, which is always about this or that boss and how allegedly difficult they are. As the "not a fan" I'm taking my cues about whats important in the franchise FROM (puns) the fans and finding it wanting.


Like Zelda (as an obvious comparitor) has never had "great" combat, and its basically always boiled down to mostly swinging a sword and the 3rd ones got around to active blocking. But its broader gameplay wound around puzzles and incorporating gadgets to flesh out that base gameplay. Up until Breath of the Wild at least where the sellling point is (No idea honestly) presumanly meant to be fun traversal.

 

[CriticalGaming]

But you yourself are arguing that the Souls games aren't doing exploration, so wheres the "more at play".

More weapon types, Weapon Arts are a fairly new addition they were in DS3 but weren't core the gameplay, Spells, and more status aliments, spirit summons. In DS 1 there were weapons and shields and that's it good luck. ER has a lot more to it than that, which is where I the the "more at play" statement. Oh and there is a jump button that doesn't rely on luck.

You can always boil a game down to the most basic elements and they'd all mostly be the same. Ice cream is mostly the same in most regards, but where ice cream and video games differ is in the flavor.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Platinuming a game changes a man.



This is what I see a lot of people say all over the internet. ER is so "playable" and like....ok sure. It's nice that the game is playable, but that doesn't mean the game itself is good. It just means it's playable.



The exploration is organic because the player literally has no choice. What are your options, run face first into Margit who will fuck you up? Or more likely the Sentinel Knight who will fuck you up. The game forces you to explore because the obvious places will fuck you up, so it promotes "organic" exploration by not giving the player any other choice but to find shit on their own. I don't think this is the win people try to make it out to be.

I think you’ve stated as much the reason the game didn’t gel with you is mostly due to the open world/exploration stuff, and that makes sense because you’ve also commented that it would be better once everyone figures all the shit out and has everything mapped for systematic progression or whatever. Which in that case, it really negates the point of having an open world.

Agree to disagree, different strokes, etc.. Oh yeah, and ER is probability the easiest FROM game to Platinum. I think you said yourself it wasn’t even that bad.

 

[09philj]

I think you’ve stated as much the reason the game didn’t gel with you is mostly due to the open world/exploration stuff, and that makes sense because you’ve also commented that it would be better once everyone figures all the shit out and has everything mapped for systematic progression or whatever. Which in that case, it really negates the point of having an open world.

Agree to disagree, different strokes, etc.. Oh yeah, and ER is probability the easiest FROM game to Platinum. I think you said yourself it wasn’t even that bad.

I think there's definitely some horrific balance issues that will wildly colour different people's experiences of the game. Unless you're a very specific kind of person, the late game bosses are going to be pure suffering for melee players, particularly ones not using Spirit Ashes, due to their long phases of being out of reach or aggressively hunting down the player. Conversely, using more of the game's tricks can pretty much trivialise a lot of them. I had very little trouble with Malenia because I summoned in a friend to hold her attention while I threw big frost spells at her. I also ended up massively overlevelled by the time I got to Crumbling Farum Azula so while Malekith is bullshit he went down in very little time once I'd learned his pattern.

The game also has shit signposting (this is an issue throughout the series but is arguably worse here due to the sheer size of it). I think this is a problem with the game, but also not one that severely impacted my playthrough because I used the wiki a lot to find the best things to do. This is in some respects a consequence of me going in with a history of not respecting how these games are constructed. I had more fun because I went in with the expectation that playing the game on its own terms would be miserable, so I should use the collective knowledge of the community to find where the fun is at.

I really liked the open world because it took a lot of the frustration out of the normal Soulsy progression. I have hated all the other games in the series that I've tried because of how much of it was spent endlessly throwing myself up against the same annoying bullshit and failing because I had nowhere else to go. In Elden Ring there's always somewhere else to go to break up the monotony.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I think there's definitely some horrific balance issues that will wildly colour different people's experiences of the game. Unless you're a very specific kind of person, the late game bosses are going to be pure suffering for melee players, particularly ones not using Spirit Ashes, due to their long phases of being out of reach or aggressively hunting down the player. Conversely, using more of the game's tricks can pretty much trivialise a lot of them. I had very little trouble with Malenia because I summoned in a friend to hold her attention while I threw big frost spells at her. I also ended up massively overlevelled by the time I got to Crumbling Farum Azula so while Malekith is bullshit he went down in very little time once I'd learned his pattern.

The game also has shit signposting (this is an issue throughout the series but is arguably worse here due to the sheer size of it). I think this is a problem with the game, but also not one that severely impacted my playthrough because I used the wiki a lot to find the best things to do. This is in some respects a consequence of me going in with a history of not respecting how these games are constructed. I had more fun because I went in with the expectation that playing the game on its own terms would be miserable, so I should use the collective knowledge of the community to find where the fun is at.

I really liked the open world because it took a lot of the frustration out of the normal Soulsy progression. I have hated all the other games in the series that I've tried because of how much of it was spent endlessly throwing myself up against the same annoying bullshit and failing because I had nowhere else to go. In Elden Ring there's always somewhere else to go to break up the monotony.

So there is also another thing to talk about regarding Elden Ring, and it's entirely the fault of the players.

People love Dark Souls, and have been playing Soulsborne games for a decade at this point. Which has colored our mindset whenever we see a game made by FromSoft. Technically ER is not a Souls game and there really isn't any reason to try and play it or even compare it to a Souls game, as difficult as that might be. While ER shares some obvious DNA with the Souls stuff before it, it also is built for a much different player approach as well.

For every crazy fucking boss, there is an equally crazy and broke way to make them look like a punk. And that is, I think, the true intention of ER. If you want to play it like a Souls game you can, but it'll be a lot harder than you might expect. But if you play it like ER, then you'll have a much easier time because the game balances out the crazy bullshit the bosses do, by also giving the players that crazy bullshit.

I'll freely admit, part of my hate for the game comes from it not being a Souls game. Bad level design, bullshit enemies and encounter design, overworld nonsense, very much things that aren't Souls-like.

On the flip side FromSoft didn't so anyone any favors with the complete lack of guidance. This approach works in a Souls game because there experience if fairly streamlined and there isn't a lot for the player to fail to figure out. However with a huge map of nothingness, ER needed to do more to flesh out the player experience. Some more quests, factions, things to do in the world to help promote exploration beyond "run around blindly and fight shit" would have gone a long way. In that regard FromSoft is very archaic in how they design things as there seems to be little consideration for long term player experience here. Again in a tight world like Souls it's fine because the level design itself can guide players to what they need to know, it doesn't translate in an open world though.

 

[BrawlMan]

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That’s pretty cool. Hopefully they can work out the audio/frame hitching thing because it would be fun to see a full playthrough, or at least some condensed highlights from different maps.

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