The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

hanselthecaretaker

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Not DS3, Sekiro, or Bloodborne? Ds2 I understand as that was a bit linear, but how can you leave the others out?

One of the big problems with the Souls games as a series in general though is that exploration is often for nothing. You explore and maybe you find a weapon, but you've already likely invested in your current weapon and stat set up that unless you find a weapon early game you probably aren't going to bother switching up your style randomly. And this is further an issue in ER where 99% of anything you'll find is useless to what you're currently doing. While you can respec, most players don't change up their player style on a whim once they've got something working. Maybe later playthroughs they go back and try a new weapon but that isn't exploring anymore since you know where to go to get whatever it is you want.

That being said, I believe that the other souls games don't suffer as much as ER ring because there are less items to find, which means you're more likely to find an upgrade material that's useful, or a cooler piece of armor, or covenant item which ER doesn't have. How did they make a massive world but not think to have factions within it that the player could join and level up in? This further adds to the emptiness of ER's world and design. There are no real secondary things to do in ER beyond Ranni's quest. In Dark Souls games there are quests, but better yet there are factions that all ask you to do different things for them. Invade players to kill them, invade to protect, join to help kill bosses, collecting items for turn ins. It's surface level sure, but it's SOMETHING to do beyond reach the end of the game.
Uh whut…Ranni’s side quest is all there is to do you say? I personal didn’t miss factions/covenants/whatever because they never made any sense in Souls games in the first place. Especially for trophy hunting. What’s the point of joining any of them if you’re just in it for the loot? Certainly wasn’t for loyalty or any role playing. As soon as you stumble upon next one it’s like “Whelp, see ya later Sunlight Bros, got other shit to grab lolz!”



So there is also another thing to talk about regarding Elden Ring, and it's entirely the fault of the players.

People love Dark Souls, and have been playing Soulsborne games for a decade at this point. Which has colored our mindset whenever we see a game made by FromSoft. Technically ER is not a Souls game and there really isn't any reason to try and play it or even compare it to a Souls game, as difficult as that might be. While ER shares some obvious DNA with the Souls stuff before it, it also is built for a much different player approach as well.

For every crazy fucking boss, there is an equally crazy and broke way to make them look like a punk. And that is, I think, the true intention of ER. If you want to play it like a Souls game you can, but it'll be a lot harder than you might expect. But if you play it like ER, then you'll have a much easier time because the game balances out the crazy bullshit the bosses do, by also giving the players that crazy bullshit.

I'll freely admit, part of my hate for the game comes from it not being a Souls game. Bad level design, bullshit enemies and encounter design, overworld nonsense, very much things that aren't Souls-like.

On the flip side FromSoft didn't so anyone any favors with the complete lack of guidance. This approach works in a Souls game because there experience if fairly streamlined and there isn't a lot for the player to fail to figure out. However with a huge map of nothingness, ER needed to do more to flesh out the player experience. Some more quests, factions, things to do in the world to help promote exploration beyond "run around blindly and fight shit" would have gone a long way. In that regard FromSoft is very archaic in how they design things as there seems to be little consideration for long term player experience here. Again in a tight world like Souls it's fine because the level design itself can guide players to what they need to know, it doesn't translate in an open world though.
When has FROM ever given guidance in past games nearly as generous as the guidance of grace? I mean, if people just want to beeline through shit then yeah, they’re gonna hit *that wall* and are probably better off just playing something else. The whole bloody point of putting an impenetrable golden horse force just outside of the opening area is to tell the player, “Hey, maybe go try something else, anywhere else!” Nothing’s stopping them from doing so.

People familiar with FROM games might’ve been thrown for a loop not unlike what happened with Sekiro. Sekiro’s combat is significantly different than Souls, and the game just didn’t click until people were ready and willing to understand and accept that. It's ultimately no different with ER. It obviously has its fans judging by the sales and completion rate, but also no biggie if it’s not for everyone. It’s just doing its own thing as the latest in a string of games that’s bound to have different high’s and low’s depending on whom is asked.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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Thats certainly a statement. But you yourself are arguing that the Souls games aren't doing exploration, so wheres the "more at play". The copy-paste grey gothic fantasy? The non existent plot? The world building that could've been by an AI bot told write item descriptions. The pitiful and occasional attempts at puzzles. There *are* Dark Souls lore afficionados, but they're so niche and far off the main discourse of the games, which is always about this or that boss and how allegedly difficult they are. As the "not a fan" I'm taking my cues about whats important in the franchise FROM (puns) the fans and finding it wanting.
Miyazaki himself has stated several times that difficulty for its own sake was never an acute focus in any of these games. Thank gamestream media and dudebros for that.



Judging by Vaati’s following and that he’s practically made a career out of dissecting these games, among others, it’s safe to assume quite a few people are attracted to them for reasons extending beyond even anything gameplay-related. Also safe to assume an AI bot of all things wouldn’t give him nearly as much usable thread to pull from (no pun).
 
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sXeth

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Miyazaki himself has stated several times that difficulty for its own sake was never an acute focus in any of these games. Thank gamestream media and dudebros for that.



Judging by Vaati’s following and that he’s practically made a career out of dissecting these games, among others, it’s safe to assume quite a few people are attracted to them for reasons extending beyond even anything gameplay-related. Also safe to assume an AI bot of all things wouldn’t give him nearly as much usable thread to pull from (no pun).

What you intend to produce and what you actually produce and how people respond to it are often quite different things (see for an infamous example, the Far Cry 3 producers comments). I'd certainly believe Miyazaki didn't intend for it to be the most difficult of games ever because thats fundamentally incompatible with the generosity of i-frames in Dark Souls. And there are certainly themes in the games, they are definitely advancing some sort of view on the idea of tradition for traditions sake and a generally nihilistic view of where that ends up, along with a broader implication that the sins or comfort of the past generation has created a cataclysmic spiral that may not be undoable wihtout emrbacing some form of a cataclysmic paradigm shift in itself. But that was fine for one game, its old hat after 5 or 6.


The AI comment is obviously an example, not a practical reality in 2011.

If anything, we've all become quite familiar in the current era with how hurriedly people will rush to see secrets and easter eggs with justification or not (There's how many of those channels running now for the MCU for instance, who swore up and down and were loudly affirmed that Mephisto was the villain in Wandavision?).


I've seen Vaati videos, and various such derivatives. Some of the connections are more tenous then others, but it is still largely simply writing in fanfiction. 2.4m subscribers sounds impressive but is less then 10% of the known purchases of Dark Souls 1. Hell there was a video in this thread i believe trying to pass 2 off screen "item lore" characters off as the same person because they both have a pallete swap flowers named after them and write an entire mythos around that theory.


There's a funny point in the late 2000s when the wrestler Chris Jericho was returning. And his hype videos were all these snippes of computer code and files. Wrestling forums (and the more limited youtube scene of the time) were screeshotting these frame by frame and analyzing and drawing all these string theories as to how this bit related to his bit. Some years later the people who made them got interviewed about it and basically said its was 90% just random names from the WWE and numbers (many of which were interpreted as dates) and the only relevant data amidst the mess was the saveus.y2j bit.


Warframe lore is actually handled very similarly. Its mostly in little description snippets on ingame items. Some of it is outright contradictory (some of it is just ideas that have been abandoned or changed over 10 years of development now). A decently large chunk of it is veiled references or tributes to 80s movies and anime (I'm told Dark Souls is apparently chock full of Berserk easter eggs but I've never seen/read Berserk, so)
 

hanselthecaretaker

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I think one of the main reasons I continued playing From games after Bloodborne, my first, is to be able to follow and participate in these conversations.
Sure I ***** about Elden Ring but I just kind of love that I care so much a video game.
Ah yes, we seem to always fondly remember our first with these games; at least for fans of them. It will be a fun masochistic stroll down memory lane whenever I pick up the Demon’s Souls Remake, along with a PS5 to play it on.
 

CriticalGaming

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Ah yes, we seem to always fondly remember our first with these games; at least for fans of them. It will be a fun masochistic stroll down memory lane whenever I pick up the Demon’s Souls Remake, along with a PS5 to play it on.
Demon's Souls will forever haunt me as the game I only need one trophy to platinum but it's a fucking asshole of a trophy.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Demon's Souls will forever haunt me as the game I only need one trophy to platinum but it's a fucking asshole of a trophy.
Ooh which one? I don't remember them all as I did it last year, but I assume it involves that world tendency thing?
I did it with help from the dedicated Discord community. There are folks that just like helping folks like us out grind out these trophies real quick.
 

CriticalGaming

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Ooh which one? I don't remember them all as I did it last year, but I assume it involves that world tendency thing?
I did it with help from the dedicated Discord community. There are folks that just like helping folks like us out grind out these trophies real quick.
All the Spells. The problem is that the difficulty jump to NG+ is absolutely broken and I can't get past Maneaters. So I can't get the final soul I need for the final spell.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Demon's Souls will forever haunt me as the game I only need one trophy to platinum but it's a fucking asshole of a trophy.
Lemme guess, Pure Bladestone? Yeah that took a few nights. Put it this way, at least you’ll wind up with a few million souls you’ll never use anyways :)

Or you could get lucky and have it drop in mere minutes, if you pray to the RNG gods.


All the Spells. The problem is that the difficulty jump to NG+ is absolutely broken and I can't get past Maneaters. So I can't get the final soul I need for the final spell.
Wait, what? Well then just either cheese the first through the fog gate with heavy arrows or if that got fixed in the remake, then maybe the troll technique still works where you pelt him from a ledge under the bridge.
 

CriticalGaming

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Lemme guess, Pure Bladestone? Yeah that took a few nights. Put it this way, at least you’ll wind up with a few million souls you’ll never use anyways :)

Or you could get lucky and have it drop in mere minutes, if you pray to the RNG gods.
No I got that without trouble. You just kill the secret guy in 4-2. No big deal.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Lemme guess, Pure Bladestone? Yeah that took a few nights. Put it this way, at least you’ll wind up with a few million souls you’ll never use anyways :)

Or you could get lucky and have it drop in mere minutes, if you pray to the RNG gods.




Wait, what? Well then just either cheese the first through the fog gate with heavy arrows or if that got fixed in the remake, then maybe the troll technique still works where you pelt him from a ledge under the bridge.
The under the bridge thing absolutely did not work for me. One of quite a few famous Soulsborne cheats that for me is even harder than the normal way.
I think in my NG ran I managed to beat Maneaters myself with some good RNG after like the hundredth time and in NG+ I think I summoned a buddy from Discord who cast some big-ass firespell to eliminate the first demon for me.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Its not a comparison of the mechanics of the two series, which are (beyond the base level of HAVE SWORDS, FIGHT THINGs) distinctly variant form each other, but the lack of any expansion upon or shift within their basic foundations for a period of literal years.

So here’s kinda the thing with ER vs the older games. FROM has expanded upon original concepts, but true-to-form often in the most obtuse ways.

Example (RL1 no less) -

It basically seems to say, “where there’s a will there’s a way”, whereas in the past it’s been more a matter of either over-leveling to get an upper hand or playing the attrition game if not.

As an aside, in terms of melee…there’s only so much “expansion” to be had from *swings sword at thing>thing takes x damage*. The games have always had parrying if one wants that challenge, and ER has gone further to flesh out the versatility of melee attack options, guard breaking/countering, a friggin normal jump finally, etc. as much as might be practical without needing to memorize movelists. Until we get to a point of physics-based dynamic damage modeling (which is still a ways off for action adventure), there will be concessions made and certain idiosyncrasies regarding how accurately and nuanced this type of gameplay can be implemented.
 
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sXeth

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Until we get to a point of physics-based dynamic damage modeling (which is still a ways off for action adventure), there will be concessions made and certain idiosyncrasies regarding how accurately and nuanced this type of gameplay can be implemented.
Well, the comparison I will always bring up here, given the overall layers of similarity is Monster Hunter.

In Monster Hunter (and predating Dark Souls 1 for most of these)
- Attacks do varying levels of damage based on the motion and posture of both parties, including how much each one will react (although you typically lose "fights" as that goes because that thing weighs like 2 tons)
- Different parts of the enemy (even the small ones) are reactive to different types of damage and weapons, or even angles of attack (IE some tails are not armoured below, but are armoured on side/top, requiring you to aim a strike precisely) (Yes I know dragons in Souls take more damage on their heads)
- A big one, enemies also have actual stamina and can't be spam machines. Furthermore stamina is affected by the above two points in relevant ways (you can also use exhaust status effect weapons as available, but its built into calculations by any attack)
- Speaking of statuses, there are actual statuses other then 7 varieties of Damage over Time.
- Key attacks can specifically be countered by precise targeting (not just timing) of relevant parts, most commonly seen with trips during charges
- Damaging different parts and components of anatomy will change the enemy behaviour and also affect the overall strength of attacks.
- Enemies are actually bound by physics. A heavy attack can not do a 190 degree turn midswing, or start and stall an attack while still doing full damage, or change direciton mid-air. I'd give a bit of leeway to Souls/ER for this because magic is a thing, but it became a trend in Dark Souls 2 and onward. And it even appleis to basic humans who just turn as if they were on a rotating pedestal to do it while ground based.


I've leave out the broader concepts of weapons and diverse movesets, but Souls is also lacking in that department. Every weapon effectively boils down to "heavy thing" "light thing" "thing+shield". On the rarest of occasions an enemy will take more damage because you plonket it with a Club instead of a sword, but usually as a very shallow gimmick (Crystarian), and all the weapons intereact with identical timed windows of oppurtunity rather then angles of attack.


I can even flip over to my other "hot take, this game is kind of bland" game in Breath of the Wild, where the combat can include mixups with bombs and physics powers and everything else (or older Zeldas where you mixed in hookshots and so on)


The post you linked is what I expect to see in Path of Exile, not a game with active action gameplay. Hell, we can take that particular style of building and drop it into Warframe which manages to have similar build nonsense while again having an active combat system including parkour maneuvers, anatomy based damage, physics based damage (admittedly, only on some abilities, not generally on guns) combos, lifts, trips, parries, counter-grab meleeing, and usable gunplay in the middle of it (Warframes general problem is that theres basically no actual need to engage with its action mechanics, because the have a bad habit of making the only things that are a threat immune to most of that)


Souls seems quite content to stick in its "You attack me, I dodge/block/parry then hit you back" repeat ad nauseum and for the most part you don't even need to move if you know the timing other then when they throw in a boss that likes to flip across the arena every other move.
 

CriticalGaming

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So FROM, um -


ER is giagantic. I dunno why people are so sure there is going be DLC considering any DLC they make would also have to be really really big or it would be disappointing.

It isnt an easy thing to ask for or expect.
 

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ER is giagantic. I dunno why people are so sure there is going be DLC considering any DLC they make would also have to be really really big or it would be disappointing.

It isnt an easy thing to ask for or expect.
Copium and wish fulfillment. You should see the amount of DMC fans that were expecting a Ladies Night DLC. Hoping and assuming that Lady and Trish will get playable missions. I get where they're coming from, but I already knew that was never going to happen. I still remember all the click baiting YouTubers who were trying to pull this crap, asking/saying, "Is they're going to be a ladies DLC? There are rumors of a ladies DLC. I'm sure they'll be ladies DLC!". The only DLC we got was Vergil and a few extra soundtracks.