If DeSantis wins

tstorm823

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Transgressive to whom? This seems to work under an assumption that conservatives such as yourself are the rightful gatekeepers of what is societally appropriate. I remain distinctly unconvinced that this is true.
It's not gatekeeping. It's not prescriptive. It's descriptive. "Conservative" is relative to the status quo, if you're detached from what society generally considers acceptable, you're not being conservative.
Secondly, your point seems to be that the only reason someone can want to wear drag is to be transgressive. You do not have any particular insight into what motivates people who wear drag, and making these sorts of unverified claims tells everyone little more than what your prejudices are. Therefore, I think you need to provide some sort of substantive evidence.
I don't think I do. I think you're smart enough to think it through. If the aspects that define a drag performance were not violative of societal expectations, would drag queens exist?
 

Ag3ma

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"Conservative" is relative to the status quo, if you're detached from what society generally considers acceptable, you're not being conservative.
Conservatism in practice does not necessarily relate to the status quo: society changes and when it does so, conservatives often continue to represent the past rather than the actual status quo, and very obviously so.

I don't think I do. I think you're smart enough to think it through. If the aspects that define a drag performance were not violative of societal expectations, would drag queens exist?
I think you need to be very careful about the fact you have moved from "acceptable" to "expectations". The two are not synonymous.

What I'm smart enough to do is to try be open, put proper consideration into how the world might work and what other people might think, rather than just splurge subjective dogma and try to defend it with sophistry.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Conservatism in practice does not necessarily relate to the status quo: society changes and when it does so, conservatives often continue to represent the past rather than the actual status quo, and very obviously so.
Or some impossible idealised dream of what the past was.
 

tstorm823

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What I'm smart enough to do is to try be open, put proper consideration into how the world might work and what other people might think, rather than just splurge subjective dogma and try to defend it with sophistry.
I don't think you're giving any consideration into how the world might work and what other people might think. I think you are giving consideration to what workings or thoughts might allow you to support something completely independent of the accuracy of that assessment. To deny the relationship between drag queens and sexual themes is not a reasonable assessment of reality, it's just a convenient premise for your desired conclusions.
 

Absent

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Of course not. I'm sure you hate billions of people and can aim your anger all over the place. It's not about me personally, or anyone specific for that matter. It's about having any target for your self-righteous anger.
You'll have to map out your delirium at some point. Now you have people supporting LGBT or cross dressing just to spite "billions of people", out of sheer "hate of people and anger all over the place".

I know that trashy cultists of your ilk just adore playing the besieged victims and framing their assaults on minorities as legitimate self-defence (of their race, of their religion, of their "way of life"), as some kind of heroic stand in front of a global enemy conspiracy driven by pure satanic hatred ("they hate our race, they hate our civilization, quick, segregate them, carpet- bomb them, deport them, shove them in the oven"). But by your logic, any ultraconservative stance was a defence from petty people just trying to spite them.

Oh no they want to free our slaves just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to give women the right to vote just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to allow gay marriage just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to enforce asylum rights just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to regulate guns just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to cancel bullfights just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to limit CO2 emissions just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to impose minimum wages just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to let black people in the bus just to spite us because they hate us.

At some point you'll have to question that universe of contrarians who exit only to nag you out of dislike. Your "God told us we are an elite sacred holy people harrassed by demonic heathens who hate us" victimization, apart from comforting you in your self-righteous anti-intellectual braindead brand of applied evil, should really show signs of wear, after all the anti-you conspiracies you've been piling up through the ages.
 
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Cheetodust

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I don't think you're giving any consideration into how the world might work and what other people might think. I think you are giving consideration to what workings or thoughts might allow you to support something completely independent of the accuracy of that assessment. To deny the relationship between drag queens and sexual themes is not a reasonable assessment of reality, it's just a convenient premise for your desired conclusions.
You literally ascribe motivation to other people's behaviour without even beginning to consider that they actually just don't see the world the way you do.
 
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Ag3ma

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I don't think you're giving any consideration into how the world might work and what other people might think. I think you are giving consideration to what workings or thoughts might allow you to support something completely independent of the accuracy of that assessment. To deny the relationship between drag queens and sexual themes is not a reasonable assessment of reality, it's just a convenient premise for your desired conclusions.
I think what you're talking about is an aspect of performance.

Drag queens were heavily associated with the entertainment industry - vaudeville in the earlier days, latterly cabarets and other clubs. These often involved the more risque element of entertainment, and if you go to an actual drag club to see an act, sexual themes are likely to be a significant element. It is however simply absurd to then claim they act exactly the same in other environments.
 
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Silvanus

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Imagine being so blind to the intentions of others as to not even consider that people performing transgressive art intend to be transgressive.
Completely off-target as a response, seeing as neither of us here are saying drag isn't intended to be transgressive.

Also pretty funny that someone with zero experience of the community in question is preaching about their intentions and motives to someone who undoubtedly has a lot more experience.

You know what queer people talk about on our own time? It's not how to piss off conservatives.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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You know what queer people talk about on our own time? It's not how to piss off conservatives.
But obviously the only reason you would ever not try to be just like Tclown is because you hate him so much, because he's just so much better than you.

This is why I don't believe in God, because a pair of skeletal hands did not immediately erupt from the ground and drag DeSantis down to Hell for such an utterly blatant lie.
 

Ag3ma

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This is why I don't believe in God, because a pair of skeletal hands did not immediately erupt from the ground and drag DeSantis down to Hell for such an utterly blatant lie.
I don't know about that: have you seen which way his poll numbers for the Republican nomination are going?
 

davidmc1158

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But obviously the only reason you would ever not try to be just like Tclown is because you hate him so much, because he's just so much better than you.


This is why I don't believe in God, because a pair of skeletal hands did not immediately erupt from the ground and drag DeSantis down to Hell for such an utterly blatant lie.
I don't know about that: have you seen which way his poll numbers for the Republican nomination are going?
Not gonna lie, I would really enjoy watching a biblically-accurate angel appear over some of these """""""""""""""""Christians"""""""""""""""" just to smite them. I think it would be quite cathartic for an agnostic-athiest like myself.
 
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Gergar12

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As much as I hate the state of Delaware, I still think it's the worst US state. People in Florida have massive brain worms that would make any citizen in Delaware look like Von Neumann. Your state is about to be sunk into the ground in the next few decades, and you are worried about trans people, and abortion.
 

Absent

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Not gonna lie, I would really enjoy watching a biblically-accurate angel appear over some of these """""""""""""""""Christians"""""""""""""""" just to smite them. I think it would be quite cathartic for an agnostic-athiest like myself.
I actually believe that, if a god and a devil exist, then the devil did the very first thing that an evil, cunning devil would do : invest the churches. Preach evil from the christian (or muslim or whatever) priest position. People are stupid, they eat up any propaganda or injunction if it comes with the correct label. And that would explain why religious nuts, fundamentalists, fanatics, are so often embracing the most evil policies and worldviews (sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic, plus so often pro-gun, pro-dictatorship, and in favor of the most corrupt politicians, the least social, the most oligarchic ones).

Seriously. Be the devil ? Then switch labels, hijack the channel. Preach satanic content to the parish, from the altar, as "word of god and love and justice". Manufacture armies of little tstorms. And watch humans harm each others for the most stupidly bigoted reasons. Watch... well, our very current world and politics.

 

tstorm823

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Oh no they want to free our slaves just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to give women the right to vote just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to allow gay marriage just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to enforce asylum rights just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to regulate guns just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to cancel bullfights just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to limit CO2 emissions just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to impose minimum wages just to spite us because they hate us.
Oh no they want to let black people in the bus just to spite us because they hate us.
You list many things you can support, and yet you do more to defend drag shows for children than any of these things.
These often involved the more risque element of entertainment, and if you go to an actual drag club to see an act, sexual themes are likely to be a significant element. It is however simply absurd to then claim they act exactly the same in other environments.
Let me put it this way then: James Bond story hour would be an inappropriate theme for a children's event. I don't think someone impersonating 007 at a library would be shooting people and sleeping with married women, but those concepts are associated with the character, and travel with him, even if he might clean up his act for the children. Holding that event is a stupid idea, and I question the motives and/or sensibilities of anyone who would suggest it.
Completely off-target as a response, seeing as neither of us here are saying drag isn't intended to be transgressive.
Well, that is the crux of the argument with others, at least.
Also pretty funny that someone with zero experience of the community in question is preaching about their intentions and motives to someone who undoubtedly has a lot more experience.
I don't think much of the drag community has any interest in doing story hours for kids, and even those who do are unlikely to be inviting themselves to schools and libraries. I imagine the people running those facilities are the ones orchestrating the events, and its their intentions that matter. In the US, these things are frequently organized by activists, the drag queens are just being paid to be there, and the money often comes from public funds.
 

Ag3ma

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Let me put it this way then: James Bond story hour would be an inappropriate theme for a children's event. I don't think someone impersonating 007 at a library would be shooting people and sleeping with married women, but those concepts are associated with the character, and travel with him, even if he might clean up his act for the children.
Firstly, James Bond is a specific character with specific attributes and this is not reasonably comparable to an entire group of people who are individuals in their own right. Secondly, you are just wrong that drag queens are all about sexual themes, and it makes me question how much you really know about them.
 

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Let me put it this way then: James Bond story hour would be an inappropriate theme for a children's event. I don't think someone impersonating 007 at a library would be shooting people and sleeping with married women, but those concepts are associated with the character, and travel with him, even if he might clean up his act for the children. Holding that event is a stupid idea, and I question the motives and/or sensibilities of anyone who would suggest it.
Punching people, performing death defying feats, and getting involved with risqué women are associated with superheroes as well. You know what little kids fucking love; Spider-Man and Batman. And NOT because these kids are weirdos who want to actually physically hurt people and have sex.

A James Bond story hour.... is a James Bond movie. And the vast majority of those movies are PG, even with all the womanizing. Same with Indiana Jones, which kids also loved. And guess what? Indy had sex with a woman in each of those first three films. You think kids got hung up or confussed about that, you think this caused some trauma resurgence later in life? Or did they just ignore it cuz whatever, grown up stuff I guess, and just focus on all the cool action and stunts?

When you see drag queens, you see every way in which this could be viewed in a sexual manner through an adult's perspective. When little kids see drag queens they just see a funny person dressed up, no different from a clown.
 

tstorm823

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A James Bond story hour.... is a James Bond movie. And the vast majority of those movies are PG, even with all the womanizing. Same with Indiana Jones, which kids also loved. And guess what? Indy had sex with a woman in each of those first three films. You think kids got hung up or confussed about that, you think this caused some trauma resurgence later in life? Or did they just ignore it cuz whatever, grown up stuff I guess, and just focus on all the cool action and stunts?
Most James Bond movies are PG because PG-13 didn't exist until 1984, and was created in part because of Temple of Doom. They invented a new rating specifically for movies like these, because PG, which already means "parental guidance", was insufficient.

To clarify: when most Bond and Indiana Jones were rated PG, that rating included everything between G-rated and R-rated. The same sort of things they do now with PG-13, calculated quantities of swearing and having slightly off-screen ultraviolence, used to be in the PG category. The Man With the Golden Gun and Raiders of the Lost Arc being PG at the time just meant "not graphic enough to be R-rated."
When you see drag queens, you see every way in which this could be viewed in a sexual manner through an adult's perspective. When little kids see drag queens they just see a funny person dressed up, no different from a clown.
And you don't see any issues putting sexual themes in front of children and saying "haha, look at the funny clown"? You don't see where the accusations of grooming come from in that?
Secondly, you are just wrong that drag queens are all about sexual themes, and it makes me question how much you really know about them.
Well, I was impressed by your honesty for one post, and now you have retreated back into your shell.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Most James Bond movies are PG because PG-13 didn't exist until 1984, and was created in part because of Temple of Doom. They invented a new rating specifically for movies like these, because PG, which already means "parental guidance", was insufficient.
And none of it was due to sexual material, just violence. And PG is PG, whether it's 13 or 15; it means any kid can watch it so long as a parent is present. James Bond is up there along with Indiana Jones and Batman as regular shit children watch.

And you don't see any issues putting sexual themes in front of children and saying "haha, look at the funny clown"? You don't see where the accusations of grooming come from in that?
It's only sexual because people like you deem it sexual, because feminine features, like a dress and make-up, are sexual in your eyes. Clowns and dressing up as an animal are also sexual in the eyes of certain people - should we ban clowns and macots from being around little kids, too? What about during the summer, when women dress in cooler, revealing clothes, should they be banned from being near children? I'll bring up beaches and public swimming pools again. What about a mother breast feeding her baby in public, or infront of her own children in her house?

I hope you can see how this accusation of "sexual themes" can be applied to virtually anything (usually feminine) with how society views sex (and women). Anything can be sexual if you view it a certain way, but more importantly, if a society has invested greatly in sexualizing it. Like for instance, women's clothing and make-up, which are mostly marketed as 'make yourself pretty for other men', eventhough an equal amount of women will dress up and put make-up on just for themselves.

What about a man in a dress wearing make-up and a wig is sexual to you, other than it being a man in a dress wearing make-up and a wig? What about these three things on a man are sexual to you?