Ukraine

Dalisclock

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The argument the US wanted Ukraine in NATO sounds....thoroughly irrelevant.

I mean if America wants Ukraine in Nato, and Ukraine wants to be in NATO then what's the problem with Ukraine getting in NATO? Since Russia is neither a member of NATO nor someone who has any right deciding for Ukraine their opinion on the matter just isn't relevant, only artificially made so because Russia responds with extreme violence when not getting what it wants.
It seems to be predicated on the idea that Eastern Europe(or any nations directly bordering Russia, for that matter) is Russia's sphere of influence and nothing should happen there without it's say so. Anything the other nations outside of Russia wants is irrelevant because they don't actually have agency.
 

Hades

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It seems to be predicated on the idea that Eastern Europe(or any nations directly bordering Russia, for that matter) is Russia's sphere of influence and nothing should happen there without it's say so. Anything the other nations outside of Russia wants is irrelevant because they don't actually have agency.
Indeed which is why we should completely reject such ideas, and the shills who espouse them.
 
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Silvanus

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The argument the US wanted Ukraine in NATO sounds....thoroughly irrelevant.

I mean if America wants Ukraine in Nato, and Ukraine wants to be in NATO then what's the problem with Ukraine getting in NATO? Since Russia is neither a member of NATO nor someone who has any right deciding for Ukraine their opinion on the matter just isn't relevant, only artificially made so because Russia responds with extreme violence when not getting what it wants.
Several NATO and US figures at the time said informally that Ukraine (and several other Eastern European states) would not be offered membership.

Russia claims that NATO and the US made a commitment not to offer membership, but that's categorically false-- there was no legal agreement not to offer membership. Nonetheless some of the figures involved in the relevant negotiations (including Gorbachev) have said that NATO expanding eastward violates the /spirit/ of the discussions.

I'd be inclined to agree... before 2014, when Russia broke its non-aggression commitments towards the country. The spirit of non-membership in a defensive alliance is predicated on the commitment from others that you won't be attacked. As soon as that happens, all bets are off.
 

meiam

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Maybe we shouldn't contaminate Ukraine with toxic waste is now a controversial position
Depleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium, which is itself very weakly radioactive. One of its use is actually to shield against radioactivity (since its less toxic than lead). So long as soldier don't eat the stuff or sleep on it, the risk are really small and about the same as using other type of munition.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I mean, theoretically in the short term, sure. The parts of Iraq where we used it extensively now have a very bad record with birth defects though. 1000+ thousand tonnes of even weekly radioactive material is nothing to sneeze at, especially when introduced to areas at high velocity and fragmenting in populated areas
 
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Silvanus

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Depleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium, which is itself very weakly radioactive. One of its use is actually to shield against radioactivity (since its less toxic than lead). So long as soldier don't eat the stuff or sleep on it, the risk are really small and about the same as using other type of munition.
Those who've researched it's longer term effects tend to disagree. Being around it in an enclosed environment, or allowing it to contact water, both pose toxic risks.

It should be subject to the same conventions that govern the use of poisons and chemicals in warfare.
 

Terminal Blue

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Depleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium, which is itself very weakly radioactive. One of its use is actually to shield against radioactivity (since its less toxic than lead). So long as soldier don't eat the stuff or sleep on it, the risk are really small and about the same as using other type of munition.
All of this may indeed be a valid point if it was just being left lying around in big, stable blocks in a controlled environment. But it isn't, it's being put inside anti-tank rounds and fired at over a kilometer a second, which means a lot of it ends up as dust. It's also extremely reactive, so over time it will break down into other substances, almost none of which are pleasant to get inside you.

To be fair though, it's still better than firing it out of stupid penis-compensating rotary cannons like the US did in Iraq.
 

Thaluikhain

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So long as soldier don't eat the stuff
Ok, others have gotten here first, but this is a problem. Tiny particles can be inhaled or ingested fairly easily as dust.

Having said that, I'm not sure how bad it is. I mean, obviously it's bad, but because it's radioactive it gets particularly bad press. Lots of other stuff around, mines and UXB and various other chemicals being released, not sure which people should worry about the most. As that's just munitions, not to mention what happens when industrial facilities get hit.
 

Terminal Blue

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Having said that, I'm not sure how bad it is. I mean, obviously it's bad, but because it's radioactive it gets particularly bad press. Lots of other stuff around, mines and UXB and various other chemicals being released, not sure which people should worry about the most. As that's just munitions, not to mention what happens when industrial facilities get hit.
So, there are cases in Iraq where it was quite bad, and where there were whole areas which ended up effectively contaminated. But again, I suspect the problem is very proportional to the amount of material put into the environment. I would guess that A10s and their funny fart-noise cannons that are inexplicably still considered militarily relevant probably deliver a lot more material over a much bigger area than a tank gun.
 
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Thaluikhain

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So, there are cases in Iraq where it was quite bad, and where there were whole areas which ended up effectively contaminated. But again, I suspect the problem is very proportion to the amount of material put into the environment. I would guess that A10s and their funny fart-noise cannons that are inexplicably still considered militarily relevant probably deliver a lot more material over a much bigger area than a tank gun.
Oh sure, I'm just wondering how it rates against what happens when you blow up a chemical plant of factory in a city, which also spreads all sorts of rather unpleasant things around, but it's much spoken of.

(Or for that matter, interupting the mains water supply or sewer system)
 

Gergar12

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I still can't justify this invasion on a cost-benefit analysis basis. It's all short-term gains that will bite you in the back. If I were Putin I would be launching a war on drugs more than a war on Ukraine. Their population is about to decrease which will reduce their power, the Americans keep finding new ways to counter their nuclear triad via missile defense and possibly AI, yet they invaded Ukraine when in reality if they won in Ukraine they would be facing an insurgency or at least daily protests. Sure you can shoot the protesters, and crack down on the insurgency, but why do it when you have a giant country like Russia already? The only reason I can think of is that Putin is afraid of Ukraine being a nexus for anti-regime activities, but China has shown you can counter that by being a better government. Just grow the economy.
 

Thaluikhain

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Eh, looks liked they believed their own press and thought it's be won easily, not the first people to make that mistake.

But, if Putin had not done this, after Brexit and Trump, he could sit back and look like a much cannier leader than the West tends to have.
 
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meiam

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So looking around, its the usual case of plenty of studies on both side of the issues. With plenty finding negligible to no effect and plenty finding effect, but mostly minor one. This is made way more complicated by the fact that there's no standard control for anything, this pretty important because bombing an area with any kind of ammunition will have repercussion on the local population, whether depleted uranium, lead, copper or steel.

Ultimately the Ukrainian will be using them mostly on their territory they can make their own decision between living under Russian occupation which may or may not rape and kill civilian or using ammunition which may or may not have minor health effect on the local population.

But the radioactivity thing is complete BS.
 

Dalisclock

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I still can't justify this invasion on a cost-benefit analysis basis. It's all short-term gains that will bite you in the back. If I were Putin I would be launching a war on drugs more than a war on Ukraine. Their population is about to decrease which will reduce their power, the Americans keep finding new ways to counter their nuclear triad via missile defense and possibly AI, yet they invaded Ukraine when in reality if they won in Ukraine they would be facing an insurgency or at least daily protests. Sure you can shoot the protesters, and crack down on the insurgency, but why do it when you have a giant country like Russia already? The only reason I can think of is that Putin is afraid of Ukraine being a nexus for anti-regime activities, but China has shown you can counter that by being a better government. Just grow the economy.
Allegedly Putin was assured the Ukrainian population was ready to welcome a new pro-Russian regime, which would roll in, kill Zelensky or at very least put him to flight and then install a new Pro-Russian puppet loyal to Moscow with very little effort.

Unfortunately for them, none of that was remotely realistic but Putin has his dick caught in the bear trap now and he doesn't know what to do(Aside from MOAR WAR CRIMES!)
 
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Seanchaidh

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So, there are cases in Iraq where it was quite bad, and where there were whole areas which ended up effectively contaminated. But again, I suspect the problem is very proportional to the amount of material put into the environment. I would guess that A10s and their funny fart-noise cannons that are inexplicably still considered militarily relevant probably deliver a lot more material over a much bigger area than a tank gun.
undoubtedly. but they also tend to do it fewer times... depending on how you measure it, I guess. A tank can be sitting around shooting near indefinitely and more efficiently move around when it does have to move while an A-10 can only deliver a few fart volleys per sortie. The intensity of the fighting in Ukraine seems to be quite a bit higher than in Iraq, so one could imagine tanks firing quite a lot without it being tactically gratuitous.
 

Terminal Blue

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If memory serves, they carry enough 30mm for around 20 seconds of firing.
So, by the sources I can find the DU penetrator on a 30mm cannon shell is about 0.3 kilograms, and the plane carries 1350 of them. So about 400 kilograms in total, a little under half a metric ton of depleted uranium.

And we know that pilots did just fire off the entire lot at a single target fairly frequently, because of course they want to fire the penis-extender 9000 at every opportunity. Those friendly fire and civilian casualty statistics aren't going to write themselves..

A tank can be sitting around shooting near indefinitely and more efficiently move around when it does have to move while an A-10 can only deliver a few fart volleys per sortie. The intensity of the fighting in Ukraine seems to be quite a bit higher than in Iraq, so one could imagine tanks firing quite a lot without it being tactically gratuitous.
Tanks only tend to carry about 40-50 rounds. Obviously, they're tank rounds so they're a lot heavier, making the total ammo weight potentially comparable with the A10. Realistically, a tank wouldn't carry 50 APDS rounds though. 10 is probably a much more reasonable number. The depleted uranium penetrator also weighs proportionally less at about 5kg. So we can probably assume any given tank only carries a maximum of about 50kg of depleted uranium.

This isn't to justify the use of depleted uranium at all (although I will point out, both sides are doing it) just that there's a relatively big difference in the level of contamination associated with different systems.
 
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