Ukraine

[Hades]

By your description, Russia appears to be fighting Ukraine in the manner that the United States and its hapless allies regularly fight their targets.

Not really. The Unites States has its share of warcrimes and don't care much about collateral damage but they don't make it a policy to beat, rape and shoot every civilian they can get their hand on, and they don't seem to establish torture basements in every single village they take over.

I don't doubt the US military has little regard for civilians in conflict areas, but going out of their way to do genocide doesn't seem a consistent habit of the US army.

... after those areas were attacked by their governments.

After the Russian army...ahem I mean ''separatists'' already took over those areas.

 

[Silvanus]

Their primary targets that you will see mentioned in NATO-aligned news reports, you mean.

Are we back to insinuating that the independent/ survivor reports are fake and the victims are crisis actors?

In the last four days alone, they've missile struck an apartment complex before sunrise, and shelled a supermarket. This follows intentional targeting of hospitals and schools (on a scale far exceeding even the war criminals of the US invasion forces), and mass summary execution in the streets when they've had the areas under their control-- hands tied, small arms fire to the back of the head. Testified by survivors repeatedly, as well as by independent outlets and investigators of these areas after occupying forces have left.

(And no, reporting Russian war crimes does not automatically mean an outlet is a puppet of the State Dept; that seems to be the bar you're operating for "NATO-aligned").

If you want to go the truly ghoulish Alex Jones crisis actor route (again), please do feel free, because it doesn't do your own position any favours.

... after those areas were attacked by their governments.

...which happened after they were seized by a foreign-sponsored far-right insurgency.

 

[Thaluikhain]

By your description, Russia appears to be fighting Ukraine in the manner that the United States and its hapless allies regularly fight their targets.

Assuming that is true, that is only a defence if the Ukranian civilians Russia is targeted are responsible for the US et al doing that. Pretty sure they are not.

 

[Dalisclock]

Some discussion of the pentagon leaks.

Russian mercenary chief says his fighters will withdraw from Bakhmut

Yevgeny Prigozhin‘s sudden announcement followed a furious tirade in which he blamed Moscow's military leaders for the heavy losses suffered by his Wagner fighters.

www.nbcnews.com

Fascist Droopy Dog is threatening to pull Wagner out of Bakhmut next week

The sudden announcement by Yevgeny Prigozhin, head of the Wagner Group, was the latest dramatic escalation in his feud with Moscow's military leadership. It followed a furious tirade in which he appeared to be surrounded by bodies as he blamed defense chiefs for the heavy losses suffered by his fighters.


Hours after his expletive-laden rant, he said he would hand over control of the grueling Bakhmut offensive to Russian army forces next week because of a shortage of ammunition supplies.

"I am withdrawing the units of PMC Wagner from Bakhmut because, in the absence of ammunition, they are doomed to senseless death," Prigozhin said, adding that his fighters would withdraw to camps Wednesday to "lick our wounds."

Visibly angry, he said his fighters were drastically short of ammunition, leading to a direct increase in casualties. Ukraine chose last month to reinforce its defenses in Bakhmut rather than surrender the city, hoping to inflict crucial losses on Russian forces ahead of a counteroffensive.

 

[Kwak]

Their primary targets that you will see mentioned in NATO-aligned news reports, you mean.

More NATO-aligned propaganda slandering the brave Russian freedom fighters.

Bakhmut on fire: Russia uses phosphorus bombs en masse – SOF

On the evening of 5 May, Russian occupation forces used phosphorus and incendiary ammunition in the city of Bakhmut, Donetsk Oblast.

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[Ag3ma]

Fascist Droopy Dog is threatening to pull Wagner out of Bakhmut next week

Maybe he should go back to catering if he finds indulging his militarist fantasies too stressful.

 

[Absent]

Anyway I don't see what all the fuss in this thread is about. Putin himself said that the russian army forces gathering around the ukrainian frontier was just an exercise. If you still think now that he's meaning to attack Ukraine, you're really giving in to russophobic paranoid propaganda, and Putin is really right to mock you.

What you should worry about, if you were honest, is NATO preparing to invade Russia because all the signs are here.

 

[Terminal Blue]

More NATO-aligned propaganda slandering the brave Russian freedom fighters.

Just to point it out again, this is why it's fucking meaningless to worry about depleted uranium.

White phosphorous somehow escaped classification as a chemical weapon due to its main purpose being an incendiary, but is perfectly capable of killing people through toxicity (after burning its way inside them) or poisoning the environment via water contamination. At least the US had the basic decency to pretend it was dropping the shit on people by mistake.

There is no point to using phosphorous munitions on people except terror. It is no different to sarin or any other chemical weapon. It has little if any conventional utility beyond the fact that the way it kills and injures people is horrifying and exhausting for medics and doctors who have to deal with the presence of an incredibly dangerous substance in the bodies of the people they're trying to treat.

 

[Silvanus]

Just to point it out again, this is why it's fucking meaningless to worry about depleted uranium.

White phosphorous somehow escaped classification as a chemical weapon due to its main purpose being an incendiary, but is perfectly capable of killing people through toxicity (after burning its way inside them) or poisoning the environment via water contamination. At least the US had the basic decency to pretend it was dropping the shit on people by mistake.

There is no point to using phosphorous munitions on people except terror. It is no different to sarin or any other chemical weapon. It has little if any conventional utility beyond the fact that the way it kills and injures people is horrifying and exhausting for medics and doctors who have to deal with the presence of an incredibly dangerous substance in the bodies of the people they're trying to treat.

OK, but there's nothing stopping us opposing both. The point of principled opposition is that it doesn't boil down to whataboutism as a justification.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

White phosphorous somehow escaped classification as a chemical weapon due to its main purpose being an incendiary

Not exactlly, WPs primary purpose is smoke creation, secondary purpose is an incendary weapon... and third is commit warcrimes by intentionally using it as an anti-personnel weapon but that part isn't covered in the handbooks.

Apparently you can get away with a lot when it comes to the international convetions on warfare by pretending you were totally doing it with a different intent.

 

[Ag3ma]

Not exactlly, WPs primary purpose is smoke creation, secondary purpose is an incendary weapon... and third is commit warcrimes by intentionally using it as an anti-personnel weapon but that part isn't covered in the handbooks.

Apparently you can get away with a lot when it comes to the international convetions on warfare by pretending you were totally doing it with a different intent.

There are zero good reasons for firing WP into civilian areas. There are no military manoeuvers to be concealed with smoke, and use of incendiaries is prohibited where there are, or likely to be, civilians present.

Accidents may happen - some doofus accidentally loads a WP shell, or maybe a shell is wrongly marked. But then, Russia has clearly been pretty indiscriminate in targetting civilian areas anyway.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Accidents may happen - some doofus accidentally loads a WP shell, or maybe a shell is wrongly marked.

One wonders why they were using another type of shell against civilian areas, then. If you don't want to be WP-ing it, you probably shouldn't be HE-ing it either.

 

[Ag3ma]

One wonders why they were using another type of shell against civilian areas, then. If you don't want to be WP-ing it, you probably shouldn't be HE-ing it either.

Probably not.

There are obviously certain points of civilian infrastructure that can be argued as having military value - e.g. power plants, communications, rail stations. Anything on a frontline is de facto a target because they can argue it could have troops, artillery spotters, etc. Arguably, they could maybe justify targetting areas of a city near the frontline on the grounds of disrupting logistics (damaging the transport network, blocking the roads).

So it can get very blurry. Countries would be expected to consider the military value against the civilian cost: for instance, knocking out a power station may cripple the operations of hospitals or the ability of a population to keep themselves warm in winter, so should have an equivalently significant military value.

However, there is no doubt that Russia has been hitting a huge number of civilian targets that do not have military value, or not enough to justify their destruction.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

There are zero good reasons for firing WP into civilian areas.

Yes but there are several very bad reasons to do so that would appeal to sick fucks.

 

[Absent]

Will Wagner ever run out of paid assassins, or are they mostly paid to point at the frontline and shove convicts in that general direction ?

Or do they have an infinite resource of paid assassins ?

 

[Ag3ma]

Will Wagner ever run out of paid assassins, or are they mostly paid to point at the frontline and shove convicts in that general direction ?

I think the convicts were a one-off to soak up the bullets taking Bakhmut.

Predictably enough, having been pardoned those who survived have headed back to their home towns and started victimising the locals.

Murder, ‘alcohol and prostitutes’: Wagner convicts pardoned by Putin return to terrorise home towns

Violent criminals who served with the notorious Russian militia in Ukraine are terrorising the communities they return to

www.theguardian.com

But Wagner presumably largely recruits from Russian military veterans, like most mercenary outfits, so can readily hire murderers as long as the Russian has a military. And then I think there was some scion of the Russian elite who went on air and said he'd served with Wagner, because he'd earlier been embarrassed by his lack of military contribution. Apparently he was in a nice, safe, artillery position far behind the lines, because well-connected people can always make sure their loved ones go somewhere less dangerous.

 

[Absent]

Poland Border Guard says patrol intercepted by Russian jet – DW – 05/07/2023

The Russian fighter jet "performed aggressive and dangerous maneuvers" toward a Polish aircraft, Warsaw said. The incident over the Black Sea caused Polish pilots to temporarily lose control of their plane.

www.dw.com

To be fair, I feel roughly as much humanity for Frontex as for the Wagner Group. I would have treated any casualty with the same disdain as any russian mercenaries infighting's.

Still, it's a geopolitically stupid behavior, and possibly symptomatic of things to come.

 

[Dalisclock]

I think the convicts were a one-off to soak up the bullets taking Bakhmut.

Predictably enough, having been pardoned those who survived have headed back to their home towns and started victimising the locals.

Murder, ‘alcohol and prostitutes’: Wagner convicts pardoned by Putin return to terrorise home towns

Violent criminals who served with the notorious Russian militia in Ukraine are terrorising the communities they return to

www.theguardian.com

But Wagner presumably largely recruits from Russian military veterans, like most mercenary outfits, so can readily hire murderers as long as the Russian has a military. And then I think there was some scion of the Russian elite who went on air and said he'd served with Wagner, because he'd earlier been embarrassed by his lack of military contribution. Apparently he was in a nice, safe, artillery position far behind the lines, because well-connected people can always make sure their loved ones go somewhere less dangerous.

It feels like this whole thing maybe isn't working out so well.

Oh well, not Putin's problem *Sips Champagne from a diamond shoe of his 3rd mistress*

 

[meiam]

I'm mostly surprised they were even allowed to leave the front line, figured they'd just keep them there forever. Wonder how many actually survive.

 

[Absent]

It feels like this whole thing maybe isn't working out so well.

Isn't it? It's a slower zerging than originally planned but still, it's a relentless advance. Even if the proportionnal costs are high on the russian side, they have overwhelming resources and no loss in them as their territory is unaffected.

Russia is steadily winning their war. I feel the west only makes sure it comes at the highest possible cost (for everyone, in practice) but, for various good and bad reasons, stops short of preventing it.