The Actual Threat to Democracy

Ag3ma

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Remember when Trump tried to force ByteDance to change a bunch of things on Tik Tok to make it acceptable so it sold on US platforms?
And this is where the threat to democracy is highest.

The basic plan of much of the right in recent years has been to demand authoritarian powers in the name of saving society from perceived threats. These are either not threats to society, or threats to some sort of paradisical conservative notion of society rather than the real living, breathing, mutable society that the wider population are actually living.

I don't have a great deal of time for milquetoast "but both sides" so-called centreists, because it is very plainly only the right that generally thinks it's reasonable to rig elections, take control of the courts, suppress media, academia and other sectors they deem insufficiently loyal, reduce their own transparency and accountability, etc. This is not a balanced and proportional response to alleged equivalent "extremism" like deplatforming, LGBTQ+ rights, green policies and so on.
 

Silvanus

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The basic plan of much of the right in recent years has been to demand authoritarian powers in the name of saving society from perceived threats.
Recent years? That plan is at least as old as Rome.
 

Thaluikhain

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Recent years? That plan is at least as old as Rome.
I still think Sulla might (might) have been genuine about taking extreme power to make the Republic great again and drain the swamp. Julius Caesar absolutely wasn't interested in anything more than a power grab, and at least some of the people that attacked him at the capitol could well have been genuine about the threat to freedom.
 

Seanchaidh

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I still think Sulla might (might) have been genuine about taking extreme power to make the Republic great again and drain the swamp. Julius Caesar absolutely wasn't interested in anything more than a power grab, and at least some of the people that attacked him at the capitol could well have been genuine about the threat to freedom.
what changed for plebs in the transition from an oligarchy organized in a Senate to an oligarchy organized under an Emperor?
 

Gordon_4

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what changed for plebs in the transition from an oligarchy organized in a Senate to an oligarchy organized under an Emperor?
Well, at least with an emperor and therefore an empire, you kind of know what you're in for. So they got a more honest government? Of sorts I guess.
 

Hades

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I still think Sulla might (might) have been genuine about taking extreme power to make the Republic great again and drain the swamp. Julius Caesar absolutely wasn't interested in anything more than a power grab, and at least some of the people that attacked him at the capitol could well have been genuine about the threat to freedom.
I think its the other way around actually. While Caesar was undoubtedly motivated by his own private glory he also seemed sincerely interested in governing well. His legislation tended to be far sighed and often long overdue corrections the senate refused to implement for partisan reasons. Sulla's reforms meanwhile proved to be inefficient and didn't survive his retirement very long. That and the civil war between him and Marius originated about something as petty as who could get a very lucrative command.

I also have an extreme amount of doubt about the motives behind Caeasar's assassins. Brutus the corrupt loan shark and political weathervane acting in the common good sounds very hard to believe. Brutus later butchering civilians that wouldn't pay for his private wars cast further doubt on his prattling about liberty.
 

Seanchaidh

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Brutus later butchering civilians that wouldn't pay for his private wars cast further doubt on his prattling about liberty.
The Roman patrician's understanding of "liberty" was already tortured enough to allow for slavery, so various atrocities aren't really evidence of insincerity.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Its so baffling that people think compromising is the mature thing to do. Compromising is for the weak who don't actual believe in something. What do these middle ground people think is gonna happen?
One side says gays and queers should be killed.
One side says gays and queers are people who deserve equal respect and support.
So lets compromise, like mature adults. Gays are people who deserve equal respect, but they can't vote. Or can't own property, or all gays have to register with their state government.
Because we're trying to compromise here, so both sides give up something, but both sides need to get something too. So the "kill all the gays" side needs to feel like its interests are being met, that whatever solution we come to they've had part of their belief enshrined into law.

There are not complex political or philosophical realities when it comes to equal rights, and not killing people for being different. There is no gray area here. There is the correct side, the liberal side, and then there is the wrong side, the conservative side. And that's just the end of it as far as complexity goes. One side is right, one side it wrong.
The exact thing Haidt is talking about...

Funny how those claiming to be silenced are so constantly loud.
Funny how a scientific journal like Cochrane took more 2 years to release a mask study that was done in 2020 but you couldn't say such things at that time...

If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend Haidt's "The Coddling of the American Mind." It certainly explains a lot of the insanity over the last decade or so.
I will check that out.

Are there few conservatives in academia because conservatives don't want to be in academia, or because academia is hostile to conservatives?

Actually, I fear the former is a significant factor. People brought up on the glories of an entrepreneurial, hustling mindset are perhaps not quite so motivated to stand around in lecture theatres talking to young adults and writing long and complex treatises (for which they will be paid nothing). And indeed, when I had a look at some sort of comments section on that organisation's website, it was indeed full of people saying academia was a dead end and if you wanted to make a difference and go places in the world, quit and make money in business instead.

That said, I agree that conservative representation in academia is a good thing because diversity matters, and I can appreciate a movement to give them some support if they feel particularly isolated and embattled.
You can just search for all the speakers that weren't allowed to speak at colleges, guess what type of affiliation most of them are? You know that if someone comes to speak at your college that you know you don't like, you can like not go to the auditorium and not hear the speech vs protesting to not have them speak.

The left is all about diversity in the physical sense (like race or gender) but against the diversity of ideas, which is literally the advantage of diversity is that you will get people with different perspectives and ideas.


I agree, I've fallen out of love with the idea of democracy over the years. I don't think the average person is informed or intelligent enough to have meaningful input on how a country should run. I know I'm not, I don't watch the news and haven't payed any attention to political platforms since the first time that I voted when I was 18, I still vote in every election though. Personally, I'd like a system that selects some of the best, brightest, and most suitable among us and trains them extensively for leadership, while also holding them accountable for the welfare of the general public. A liberal meritocracy, if you will.
I'm also not a fan of democracy but I don't really have a better idea for something that would in practice actually work out better. Maybe it's just the American experience that is the cause because I feel like other countries (like the Nordic countries) have much better working democracies. From the outside looking in (and not really knowing much about them), I feel like they probably just have a better foundation in education, a better support system, and culture that leads to more selflessness.

I haven't watched the whole thing so far (Doing it a few minutes at the time at work)

But this is quite a bit interesting (I agree or can follow most of what this guy says so far, but i also would say: It's not all - there is more and like i always say: It's never that easy - his perspective seems a bit narrow so far)

Also this discussion seems to go well.

Just want to throw in: As someone who always thought about himself quite progressive: I never disdained "conservatives" and conservative thinking. For me it always seemed that it shouldn't be treated as the enemy of progress.
While i for example always thought politically it should "of course" always be in the minority - it is always a a reminder and a needed resistance to change.

Always a slight push to analyze WHY things are how they are now, why they were like they were before and to pressure you to think about what you want to change and how your changes interact with other established systems.

But i think everything described as "VERY xxxxx" - in this case conservative/liberal, is usually unworkable, unhealthy or willingly obtuse.
But might be just a matter of definition... also if you get (u.s.a) politics in this, well... republicans are not as much conservative as they are, in some perspective just lunatics.
Obviously, no one is going to be 100% spot-on about anything, but I think he's on the right path or at least talking about things to get us on the right path. I definitely think social media is bad for people. But getting rid of social media isn't going to magically fix everything either. People today, just normal people, are more extreme than they've ever been IMO. Most people just see the one side to said issue, then with social media and the algorithms, they just see more and more of that. I used to only pay attention to very liberal media exclusively and forced myself to at least humor the other side's takes on issues. I guess it started because of a few guys at work that would bring up politics that were against my beliefs / preconceptions and they were good guys so there had to be a reason why that had such stances. So instead of just writing them off as "right wing" and ignoring their opinions, I would look into some of the things and realized they have some points and I would sometimes end up agreeing with them and even if I didn't (which would be most of the time), I would at least have a different perspective on the issue and see it rather different even if I was still on the "left" side of it. It made me notice the liberal media plays the same tricks as the right media, but they are just better at the tricks.

Is this true? 'cause I can't think of a single thing conservatives think that's a good idea. Immigrants in camps? Bad idea. No gun control? Bad idea. Low/no taxes for the super wealthy? Bad idea. Right wing Christian white nationalism? Bad idea.
Like is sounds smart to say both sides have their pros and cons, but honestly its a pretty lazy take. Once you start breaking it down issue by issue, the right and wrong side start to become clearer. Not everything is shades of gray, and pretending that it is is just an excuse to be lazy and shrug off both sides as equally bad.
Then why do conservative polices in Texas have less homelessness than California? Or is less homelessness a "bad idea".
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Then why do conservative polices in Texas have less homelessness than California? Or is less homelessness a "bad idea".
The homelessness policies of Democrat run major Texas cities? Well, they probably aren't as captured by venture capitalists as California has. Housing is, for now, less expensive

Add in the fact that the conservative solution to homelessness is "if we don't have services to help homeless people, they'll leave, ship those freeloaders to the liberals to take care of, we don't want them" and you start figuring out why rates are like they are
 

Phoenixmgs

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The homelessness policies of Democrat run major Texas cities? Well, they probably aren't as captured by venture capitalists as California has. Housing is, for now, less expensive

Add in the fact that the conservative solution to homelessness is "if we don't have services to help homeless people, they'll leave, ship those freeloaders to the liberals to take care of, we don't want them" and you start figuring out why rates are like they are
You guys love breaking things down to something so black and white just to fit your narrative when there's tons of nuance. Zoning is a major issue to homelessness in cities so in Austin, they need to build housing outside of city limits because of zoning issues whereas Houston has no zoning at all so housing can be built in city. So yes, in Austin, homeless do leave the city right across the city line because of zoning issues but acting like Texas is shipping homeless to other liberal states because they have no programs is complete and utter bullshit. Also, I'm sure the areas just outside of Austin are more conservative than inside of Austin so it's the homeless needing to go to more conservative areas and fleeing the more liberal area.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Even the general sentiment of what Haidt is talking about shows up on a freaking sports talk show. Colin @6:25 literally mentions that Bill Clinton said 15 years ago that the left/right just listening to the left/right media is a major problem. Metal Gear Solid 2 was also about it is well and it was so ahead of its time.

 

Ag3ma

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The left is all about diversity in the physical sense (like race or gender) but against the diversity of ideas, which is literally the advantage of diversity is that you will get people with different perspectives and ideas.
That's a fascinating claim considering that rightists regularly threaten to ban courses that they don't approve of, or like your bestest political buddy De Santis have passed laws banning things being taught that they don't approve of. And whilst they're banning things like gender transition, they are very much assaulting diversity of perspectives and ideas along with physical diversity.

And yet it's oh so funny that people like you get so het up about students protesting a speaker at their institution. It's like you have no real understanding of the issues at all.
 

Absent

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That's a fascinating claim considering that rightists regularly threaten to ban courses that they don't approve of, or like your bestest political buddy De Santis have passed laws banning things being taught that they don't approve of. And whilst they're banning things like gender transition, they are very much assaulting diversity of perspectives and ideas along with physical diversity.

And yet it's oh so funny that people like you get so het up about students protesting a speaker at their institution. It's like you have no real understanding of the issues at all.
Conservatives are against cultural diversity. And they promote a model of society where only one mindset, one set of values, ensures survival (basically, you have to maximize profit, to be as self-serving and materialist as possible, or else you deserve to be crushed economically). They detest the presence of foreigners, with different habits, different traditions, different cooking, dressing, etc. They want uniformity. One culture, one ethnicity, one morphology. One goal in life. One family model. One identity. One religion.

But yeah, apart from that they are all for the diversity of ideas.

And by "the diversity of ideas" they mean, the preservation of their own ideology of uniformity and exclusion. The one ideology that has to be absent from a society allowing for diversity...
 
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Phoenixmgs

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That's a fascinating claim considering that rightists regularly threaten to ban courses that they don't approve of, or like your bestest political buddy De Santis have passed laws banning things being taught that they don't approve of. And whilst they're banning things like gender transition, they are very much assaulting diversity of perspectives and ideas along with physical diversity.

And yet it's oh so funny that people like you get so het up about students protesting a speaker at their institution. It's like you have no real understanding of the issues at all.
What course was banned in Florida? At least DeSantis had kids in school actually learning things. Following what we currently know science-wise is an assault on the diversity of perspectives?!?! Places like Sweden and France are coming to the same conclusions based on the data we have. What ideas that a speaker was trying to convey at a college campus was banned by the right? And not only does the left stop people from speaking, they assault them as well. You know as a student at a college campus, you're not forced to hear someone speak (ala Clockwork Orange), you can like simply not. Why anyone would protest someone speaking is beyond me.

Conservatives are against cultural diversity. And they promote a model of society where only one mindset, one set of values, ensures survival (basically, you have to maximize profit, to be as self-serving and materialist as possible, or else you deserve to be crushed economically). They detest the presence of foreigners, with different habits, different traditions, different cooking, dressing, etc. They want uniformity. One culture, one ethnicity, one morphology. One goal in life. One family model. One identity. One religion.

But yeah, apart from that they are all for the diversity of ideas.

And by "the diversity of ideas" they mean, the preservation of their own ideology of uniformity and exclusion. The one ideology that has to be absent from a society allowing for diversity...
DeSantis won 58% of the Latino vote, including 68% of Cuban Americans, 56% of Puerto Ricans, and 53% of all other Latinos combined.
 

tstorm823

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The AP course on African American studies.

You mean the course that's still in the pilot program, which they are actively courting feedback from the states about, and which they seemed to not even hesitate to alter based on Florida's feedback?
 

Silvanus

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You mean the course that's still in the pilot program, which they are actively courting feedback from the states about, and which they seemed to not even hesitate to alter based on Florida's feedback?
None of which changes the fact that DeSantis prevented its availability where he had control.

I'm not interested in your reasons for why you think it's fine he barred it. I'm just answering the question.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Yeah because you're a milquetoast straight white dude. You don't have to think about people arguing away your rights or existence with any serious credibility.
What college speaker was that was stopped from speaking was trying to argue any group's rights away? You do realize random people just don't get to speak at colleges right? They have to be invited and invitations don't go out to people trying to argue away anyone's rights. You guys are acting like it's 1823 when it's 2023.

The AP course on African American studies.

And the course is just fine with a few minor revisions so that the class isn't against the law. It would be like complaining about a state banning a bomb making class because making bombs is against the law.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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What college speaker was that was stopped from speaking was trying to argue any group's rights away
Most conservative ones. You just don't see it that way, because you also don't think the things talked about count as rights

And the course is just fine with a few minor revisions so that the class isn't against the law. It would be like complaining about a state banning a bomb making class because making bombs is against the law.
True, mentioning queer liberation in context with black liberation and how they intersect is exactly like making fucking bombs.

You really do consider following the law a moral imperative regardless of what the law actually says, huh