School shooting at Texas Elementary school, several children reported dead

Thaluikhain

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As one of the many people living in one of the many countries with tighter gun control and better politicians than the US...no. That doesn't work at all. Hell, when the US police off someone, they then pretend they they thought the were armed. Guns don't make you safer from the police, who are quite happy to kill innocent people.
 
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SilentPony

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Gun control is fucking stupid. and I don't say that as someone who loves 2A, has 16 guns, or tolerates mass shootings. I said that in that it's a deterrent to bad government, and I am glad more left-wing people are grabbing guns, I hope they grab more potent ones too. It's like Jefferson stated in the Tree of Liberty and all that jazz. Yes, I have changed my position on it, I don't think the US military and police have enough ammunition or willpower to hit back at a revolting population, I think a portion of that ammunition will be in warehouses in the US that people can, and will interdict. I don't think they have enough willpower to kill scores of Americans who just want their homes not to be foreclosed on, a dignified retirement, etc.

And let's say they do have enough ammunition which they stored offshore for their drones, their jets, their tanks, and their ships. And let's say they do have enough willpower to kill the population, what is the point of that? Are all the 30 million people(And I am giving a high estimate) who are millionaires, police, etc. who could side with this tyrannical oligarchy of a government going to accept the fact they will have to clone people after they massacre large portions of this population and kill them when they revolt? I am sure there will be a revolt inside this elite as well.

As for the right-wing in this country, I don't think many will be left. I think many of them are in their 50s, and 60s right now. They aren't fighting their own children.

Well, we could always protest, how's that working out for you? How are the French protests doing, how are the many attempts at a general strike on Tik Tok doing, can you even protest BlackRock and many others, no, going into their buildings, and sitting there does not count as an effective protest.

When, and if in the future the Olgrachs have taken everything, I believe people will have nothing to lose. We are always 3 meals away from revolt.
There is zero chance any armed revolt against the US by citizens works. Zero. The US government basically controls everything. Start a revolt, and if the local police and Swat don't put you down, guess what happens? Power turns off. Water turns off. Gas turns off. You're now in a town circa 1700. Very very few Americans can function in those conditions, let alone fight a war against the best equipped army is known existence. And it doesn't get any better. There is no militia that's going to take back the electrical system from the US. No rag tag group of Brown Coats is gonna take the Hoover Dam.

It ends with overwhelming force, tens of thousands of Marines, storming a little backwater hovel. Or just drones and plains striking a target back to the stone age.
Anyone who thinks there can be a successful rebellion against the US government is deluding themselves. Its impossible.
 

Thaluikhain

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There is zero chance any armed revolt against the US by citizens works. Zero. The US government basically controls everything. Start a revolt, and if the local police and Swat don't put you down, guess what happens? Power turns off. Water turns off. Gas turns off. You're now in a town circa 1700. Very very few Americans can function in those conditions, let alone fight a war against the best equipped army is known existence. And it doesn't get any better. There is no militia that's going to take back the electrical system from the US. No rag tag group of Brown Coats is gonna take the Hoover Dam.

It ends with overwhelming force, tens of thousands of Marines, storming a little backwater hovel. Or just drones and plains striking a target back to the stone age.
Anyone who thinks there can be a successful rebellion against the US government is deluding themselves. Its impossible.
All of that is true, but don't forget the other civilians, many of which don't care about the revolt, others that want it to go away and stop bothering them, and others that are openly hostile to it. Even if the state for some reason didn't get involved, a bunch of randoms aren't going to have an easy time taking and holding a town.

In addition, who gives the orders? The US military and civil authorities have all sorts of rules and hierarchies, which rebels would not, and desperately need.
 

Absent

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Not to mention that whenever an authoritarian jerkass gets closer to establish a dictatorship, the gun freaks are the first ones to applaud.

They will be the ones shooting at protesters to protect their strongman, not the other way round.
 

Gergar12

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There is zero chance any armed revolt against the US by citizens works. Zero. The US government basically controls everything. Start a revolt, and if the local police and Swat don't put you down, guess what happens? Power turns off. Water turns off. Gas turns off. You're now in a town circa 1700. Very very few Americans can function in those conditions, let alone fight a war against the best equipped army is known existence. And it doesn't get any better. There is no militia that's going to take back the electrical system from the US. No rag tag group of Brown Coats is gonna take the Hoover Dam.

It ends with overwhelming force, tens of thousands of Marines, storming a little backwater hovel. Or just drones and plains striking a target back to the stone age.
Anyone who thinks there can be a successful rebellion against the US government is deluding themselves. Its impossible.
.

.

Ah yes, the declining in popularity us military where 25% of US military members are food insecure. That one?
 

Thaluikhain

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Not to mention that whenever an authoritarian jerkass gets closer to establish a dictatorship, the gun freaks are the first ones to applaud.

They will be the ones shooting at protesters to protect their strongman, not the other way round.
A few years back at least some gun makers stopped advertising guns as being tools to overthrow tyranny, and started saying that people should buy them to protect the government from rioters.
 
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Gergar12

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A few years back at least some gun makers stopped advertising guns as being tools to overthrow tyranny, and started saying that people should buy them to protect the government from rioters.
Ah yes your right wing gun will jump at the chance to defend Black Rock, Bezos, and Bill Gates and Co.
 

SilentPony

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.

.

Ah yes, the declining in popularity us military where 25% of US military members are food insecure. That one?
Even if they're struggling, overthrowing the Federal government isn't going to make things better. You're not going to get more food after the electricity goes out and all the food in supermarkets spoils. You're not going to buy more groceries after the banking system collapses.
Its a pipe dream by would-be terrorists and racial supremists who want a gun for second amendment "solutions" if their daughter starts dating a black man.
 
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Gergar12

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Even if they're struggling, overthrowing the Federal government isn't going to make things better. You're not going to get more food after the electricity goes out and all the food in supermarkets spoils. You're not going to buy more groceries after the banking system collapses.
Its a pipe dream by would-be terrorists and racial supremists who want a gun for second amendment "solutions" if their daughter starts dating a black man.
I and many left-wingers are not after the US military or the US government I am after the billionaires using them as human shields.
 

SilentPony

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I and many left-wingers are not after the US military or the US government I am after the billionaires using them as human shields.
Fair, but even killing the billionaire class wouldn't change shit. Think about it, some great big Jason Borne/Winter Soldier operation manages to kill every single billionaire in the entire world, every last one, in a single night. Wake up the next morning, none are left.
What changes? What, the vice president of Amazon suddenly agrees they should pay taxes? The people who inherit Musk's fortune suddenly push for free health care for all? DeSantis reverse course on literally everything and changes his name to Obi-Wan Pocahontas The Merciful?
The problem isn't the billionaires, they're merely the white head pimple of a deeper infection. Popping it doesn't help. The problem is capitalism as a system, and the inherent human need to want to be better than someone else. Until we get to a Star Trek utopia, no one individual or group of individuals going away solves dick. Because behind every billionaire is a hundred thousand equally callous, equally greedy, equally manipulative and controlling enablers who will step over that corpse to take its place before Musk has even hit the dirt.
 

Gergar12

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Fair, but even killing the billionaire class wouldn't change shit. Think about it, some great big Jason Borne/Winter Soldier operation manages to kill every single billionaire in the entire world, every last one, in a single night. Wake up the next morning, none are left.
What changes? What, the vice president of Amazon suddenly agrees they should pay taxes? The people who inherit Musk's fortune suddenly push for free health care for all? DeSantis reverse course on literally everything and changes his name to Obi-Wan Pocahontas The Merciful?
The problem isn't the billionaires, they're merely the white head pimple of a deeper infection. Popping it doesn't help. The problem is capitalism as a system, and the inherent human need to want to be better than someone else. Until we get to a Star Trek utopia, no one individual or group of individuals going away solves dick. Because behind every billionaire is a hundred thousand equally callous, equally greedy, equally manipulative and controlling enablers who will step over that corpse to take its place before Musk has even hit the dirt.
I never said we should kill them, I think we should put them on trial in a Geneva Conventions tribunal then very very likely in jail for a while then a mental institution, then stigmatize their behavior.

I am to the left of AOC on this, and to the right of Tik Tokers that want to kill all of them.
 

Thaluikhain

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Well, I'd say that the current lot of billionaires going away or not being billionaire anymore would certainly help, though yeah, not the be all and end all. Lots of revolutions ousted horrible people and replaced them with other horrible people. Sometimes there was even a good faith attempt at a better society in between.
 
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Absent

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and the inherent human need to want to be better than someone else.
Correction : the enforced cultural values of power/wealth differential.

Mankind could be different. Mankind is/was, in various places, various times. Societies have functionned on different values. Unfortunately, our capitalistic culture is defined by its glorification of the pursuit of personal, individual profit, and distinction by accumulation. And even less fortunately, this set of predatory values makes it all the more easy, for that system, to crush and annihilate others. When you decide it's war, when you decide it's competition, when you absolutely revel in it, well, those who don't are doomed.

But it's not a force of nature. There's a hardcoded part of assholery, which is simply how we struggle to care beyond our immediate circle. But cultural values and self-reflexivity weight more than instinct. This thing is, our dog-reat-dog values encourage the worst in us. "Greed is good" and all that shit.

And "nature" is just a cheap rhetorical excuse to indulge in that. But it's efficient, as all cheap rhetorical excuses are when it comes to sparing ourselves cognitive/moral efforts.
 
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SilentPony

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Correction : the enforced cultural values of power/wealth differential.

Mankind could be different. Mankind is/was, in various places, various times.
Source? Have we? Did we? Was there ever a society that didn't have people in charge? Was there every a society were everyone has equal amounts of everything all the time?
Like it sounds nice, but I don't think actual history bares that out. Out ancient ancestors took things from one another. Cavemen fought cavemen over food, women, sharp rocks.
Fuck primate clans go to war with other clans over territory and food supplies. Nature is in a constant state of power and wealth conflict. That ant colony is closer to the apple tree than that other one. Raid their food dens. That's a power and wealth difference.

The second one single celled organism ate another, conflict was the way of nature. You're never going to fix that.
 

Thaluikhain

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Source? Have we? Did we? Was there ever a society that didn't have people in charge? Was there every a society were everyone has equal amounts of everything all the time?
Like it sounds nice, but I don't think actual history bares that out. Out ancient ancestors took things from one another. Cavemen fought cavemen over food, women, sharp rocks.
Fuck primate clans go to war with other clans over territory and food supplies. Nature is in a constant state of power and wealth conflict. That ant colony is closer to the apple tree than that other one. Raid their food dens. That's a power and wealth difference.

The second one single celled organism ate another, conflict was the way of nature. You're never going to fix that.
Perhaps not, but the amount of conflict and inequality has varied immensely throughout different societies. Things that can't be eliminated can still be minimised, or at least reducded.
 

SilentPony

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Perhaps not, but the amount of conflict and inequality has varied immensely throughout different societies. Things that can't be eliminated can still be minimized, or at least reduced.
Sure, totally, granted. But the ultimate debate in this thread boils down to "How are guns going to fix it?" The idea some sort of armed rebellion is going to overthrow the government and make the world a better place. My point is that no amount of killing is going to solve our problems, because the problem isn't people, its humanity. No one person or group of people caused this *gestures at everything*
There's no way a gun solves homelessness, unless you pull a Nazi and just kill all the homeless people, but no outside of Ben Shapiro is saying that. And even that doesn't solve the problem, it just removes the current generation of that problem.
The 2nd amendment and gun rights is founded on the idea a gun in a person's hands can change the world, and Im simply saying that's not true. The real reason for guns in this nation is a power fantasy and racial fears, full stop.
 
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Absent

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Source? Have we? Did we? Was there ever a society that didn't have people in charge? Was there every a society were everyone has equal amounts of everything all the time?
Like it sounds nice, but I don't think actual history bares that out. Out ancient ancestors took things from one another. Cavemen fought cavemen over food, women, sharp rocks.
Yeah there are. But the examples I have in mind are/were micro-communities, based on ecological balance and underproductivity (for rational, survival reasons : limiting the waste and the direct surrounding environmental damages), and while the local balance of power was terribly baffling for European colonists who couldn't find a "leader" to talk to, and struggled even more to get an "order" applied unwillingly, it had its contextual limitations. War campaigns, for instance, were organized around a leader, even if that leader lost all autority during peace time or inbetween raids (a bit like 19th century pirate captains had rank at sea, but absolutely none on shore). Also, while conflicts were solved by moderation through some respected figures, the cohesion was kept through some peer pressure that could also be felt as oppressive (especially under ethnocidal pressure and cultural transformations). Lastly, this system being opposed to material accumulation and waste production, it doesn't favour innovation and technological development, hence its vulnerability in front of our industrial civilization.

These examples are mostly south-american. You get other hybrid forms in Africa, which aren't that "acephalous" (they are organized around a "king"), but also small, and also cultrally oppposed to material accumulation and wealth differential : the "king" isn't rich, as his accumulated goods are used up in vast redistribution rituals (or sacrificial rituals, where the goods are destroyed), and his status precisely depends on the thoroughness of this distrubution (or waste). In such systems, material accumulation is seen as antisocial, a moral defect, and can lead to dangerous ostracization (and dangerous accusation of sorcery, which is more about moral mindsets than about magical activities). So, again, cultures that clash with ours, as, on the opposite, we admire "rich" people, we see them as models, as "success story", as opposed to suspiciously antisocial evils. We pride ourself though material distinction (look at my expensive watch) which is a matter of shame elsewhere.

Now, for various reasons, one could love or hate to live in such a society, especially when socialized in another. And, as our society values innovation and technological development to a fault, others are deemed "failures" by that metric. All systems have ramifications and positive ad negative consequences, humans haven't manufactured any paradise. But when you assess the actual immense diversity of systems around which humans have organized (and lastingly, through generations and generations), you lose the illusion of "natural" determinism. Weighting the pros and cons of cultural systems, speculating on the interdependancy of its components (can a society have this quality without having that flaw, etc), are one thing - a legitimate discussion, a worthy endeavour. But denying that humans have organized around such different values is anthropologically false, and artificially limits our peceptions of absolute possibilities.

We have strongly internalized the value of material accumulation, and it leads to terrible problems. The reality is, other humans have also strongly internalized the value of equal distribution, which certainly leads to other problems. What makes it all very complicated is that the object of anthropological study can't be placed in a lab, an can't be experimented on. We're left with descriptions of what is, of what has been, but with pure speculation of alternatives. Could we craft a "best of both worlds" system ?

Some could argue that communism was an attempt. All would agree it failed miserably. Are there other attempts, in other conditions, to be made ? Some have very good personal reasons to discourage this line of thought.

Maybe there are solid causes that prevent such success (like our cognitive difficulties to think and care beyond a small local circle). But still, awareness of the issue, and of the fact it's an issue, somewhat contradicts that. Whatever the response, the question cannot ignore the experience of mankind. And this experience shows that, for better or worse, individual selfishness, as a motivator, is cultural. What people look for is, above all, gratification in the mirror of society. Pride and shame, which can -and have been- attached to very different sets of things, through very different sets of values.
 
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Silvanus

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Gun control is fucking stupid. and I don't say that as someone who loves 2A, has 16 guns, or tolerates mass shootings. I said that in that it's a deterrent to bad government [...]
Then explain why it hasn't deterred bad government at all, and why dozens of countries without free and easy access to guns have better governments than the US.
 

Gergar12

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Sure, totally, granted. But the ultimate debate in this thread boils down to "How are guns going to fix it?" The idea some sort of armed rebellion is going to overthrow the government and make the world a better place. My point is that no amount of killing is going to solve our problems, because the problem isn't people, its humanity. No one person or group of people caused this *gestures at everything*
There's no way a gun solves homelessness, unless you pull a Nazi and just kill all the homeless people, but no outside of Ben Shapiro is saying that. And even that doesn't solve the problem, it just removes the current generation of that problem.
The 2nd amendment and gun rights is founded on the idea a gun in a person's hands can change the world, and Im simply saying that's not true. The real reason for guns in this nation is a power fantasy and racial fears, full stop.
Yeah there are. But the examples I have in mind are/were micro-communities, based on ecological balance and underproductivity (for rational, survival reasons : limiting the waste and the direct surrounding environmental damages), and while the local balance of power was terribly baffling for European colonists who couldn't find a "leader" to talk to, and struggled even more to get an "order" applied unwillingly, it had its contextual limitations. War campaigns, for instance, were organized around a leader, even if that leader lost all autority during peace time or inbetween raids (a bit like 19th century pirate captains had rank at sea, but absolutely none on shore). Also, while conflicts were solved by moderation through some respected figures, the cohesion was kept through some peer pressure that could also be felt as oppressive (especially under ethnocidal pressure and cultural transformations). Lastly, this system being opposed to material accumulation and waste production, it doesn't favour innovation and technological development, hence its vulnerability in front of our industrial civilization.

These examples are mostly south-american. You get other hybrid forms in Africa, which aren't that "acephalous" (they are organized around a "king"), but also small, and also cultrally oppposed to material accumulation and wealth differential : the "king" isn't rich, as his accumulated goods are used up in vast redistribution rituals (or sacrificial rituals, where the goods are destroyed), and his status precisely depends on the thoroughness of this distrubution (or waste). In such systems, material accumulation is seen as antisocial, a moral defect, and can lead to dangerous ostracization (and dangerous accusation of sorcery, which is more about moral mindsets than about magical activities). So, again, cultures that clash with ours, as, on the opposite, we admire "rich" people, we see them as models, as "success story", as opposed to suspiciously antisocial evils. We pride ourself though material distinction (look at my expensive watch) which is a matter of shame elsewhere.

Now, for various reasons, one could love or hate to live in such a society, especially when socialized in another. And, as our society values innovation and technological development to a fault, others are deemed "failures" by that metric. All systems have ramifications and positive ad negative consequences, humans haven't manufactured any paradise. But when you assess the actual immense diversity of systems around which humans have organized (and lastingly, through generations and generations), you lose the illusion of "natural" determinism. Weighting the pros and cons of cultural systems, speculating on the interdependancy of its components (can a society have this quality without having that flaw, etc), are one thing - a legitimate discussion, a worthy endeavour. But denying that humans have organized around such different values is anthropologically false, and artificially limits our peceptions of absolute possibilities.

We have strongly internalized the value of material accumulation, and it leads to terrible problems. The reality is, other humans have also strongly internalized the value of equal distribution, which certainly leads to other problems. What makes it all very complicated is that the object of anthropological study can't be placed in a lab, an can't be experimented on. We're left with descriptions of what is, of what has been, but with pure speculation of alternatives. Could we craft a "best of both worlds" system ?

Some could argue that communism was an attempt. All would agree it failed miserably. Are there other attempts, in other conditions, to be made ? Some have very good personal reasons to discourage this line of thought.

Maybe there are solid causes that prevent such success (like our cognitive difficulties to think and care beyond a small local circle). But still, awareness of the issue, and of the fact it's an issue, somewhat contradicts that. Whatever the response, the question cannot ignore the experience of mankind. And this experience shows that, for better or worse, individual selfishness, as a motivator, is cultural. What people look for is, above all, gratification in the mirror of society. Pride and shame, which can -and have been- attached to very different sets of things, through very different sets of values.
No, it's not humanity it's people with a certain type of trait. The Dark Triad. Just don't let those people be near power, and we will live in a better place.



Machiavellianism, Psychopathy, and Narcissism.

Edit: Fine I will tell you why I think the US military isn't invincible. One their vehicles need to be armed and fueled, and their needs to be a robust supply chain to prep them for war. Take those out, and they are fancy props. Two the military IS getting less popular with the US population like Gen Z. Three 25% of them are food insecure right now, and a portion of those would defect or either join the other side. I also don't even think it will get to that point I think the US military yes could side with the center, but if they see their neighbors or maybe family out on the street, lots of people joining food lines outside charities, do you really think that's a tenable situation for them. For the police yes, but for the military, it's a no. They aren't people willing to kill their own citizens to protect people like billionaires who most haven't even met.
 
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Gergar12

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Then explain why it hasn't deterred bad government at all, and why dozens of countries without free and easy access to guns have better governments than the US.
Because we haven't used it yet in a collective mass since the Civil War. Therefore the threat of it has been deemed less credible, but it's there. More guns than people.

Edit: I can name countries without guns that are in as worse or even worse shape than the US; Canada, the UK, Australia, and also France somewhat. Also what's your solution to the billionaire problem, protesting doesn't work ala Occupy Wall Street, and Paris protests. General strikes don't work, regular strikes ala writers guild and railroads don't work(Biden did let a union have paid leave but not all railroad workers). Voting doesn't work in high-income countries unless you're in the Nordics. Ballet ballot issues don't work(they can literally just say we don't have enough money ala Vermont for universal healthcare), and court litigation doesn't work.
 
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