School shooting at Texas Elementary school, several children reported dead

Silvanus

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Because we haven't used it yet in a collective mass since the Civil War. Therefore the threat of it has been deemed less credible, but it's there. More guns than people.
OK, but that threat... hasn't had the effect of promoting good governance.

If anything, it's promoted poor governance, by enthralling one of the two major parties to a gun lobby.

Edit: I can name countries without guns that are in as worse or even worse shape than the US; Canada, the UK, Australia, and also France somewhat.
Lol no.

Also what's your solution to the billionaire problem, protesting doesn't work ala Occupy Wall Street, and Paris protests. General strikes don't work, regular strikes ala writers guild and railroads don't work(Biden did let a union have paid leave but not all railroad workers). Voting doesn't work in high-income countries unless you're in the Nordics. Ballet ballot issues don't work(they can literally just say we don't have enough money ala Vermont for universal healthcare), and court litigation doesn't work.
All of those approaches can work, contextually and situationally.

But more to the point: people having guns hasn't worked at all at addressing that problem. America's wealth inequality problem only grows, even as people have more and more guns.
 

Thaluikhain

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Because we haven't used it yet in a collective mass since the Civil War. Therefore the threat of it has been deemed less credible, but it's there. More guns than people.

Edit: I can name countries without guns that are in as worse or even worse shape than the US; Canada, the UK, Australia, and also France somewhat.
In what way are they worse than the US? Barring not having easy access to semi-automatic rifles?

(Ok, the UK is a bit of a shambles right now, but they didn't have an attempted coup to restore a guy who hordes secret documents in his toilet and told people to drink bleach to cure covid)
 

Gergar12

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In what way are they worse than the US? Barring not having easy access to semi-automatic rifles?

(Ok, the UK is a bit of a shambles right now, but they didn't have an attempted coup to restore a guy who hordes secret documents in his toilet and told people to drink bleach to cure covid)
OK, but that threat... hasn't had the effect of promoting good governance.

If anything, it's promoted poor governance, by enthralling one of the two major parties to a gun lobby.



Lol no.



All of those approaches can work, contextually and situationally.

But more to the point: people having guns hasn't worked at all at addressing that problem. America's wealth inequality problem only grows, even as people have more and more guns.
Have you two been living under a rock? Yes, those countries have robust healthcare systems. But the cost of living has skyrocketed. In Canada, food prices have gone up, and it's near damn impossible to get a home, rent is sharply increasing.



I don't even have to google this, it's everywhere on Tik Tok.

In the UK ditto.


Now Australia wouldn't be on this list normally since it enjoys lots of trade, but it's also ditto as well.

.



And I am sure you guys will come up with an explanation. But it's because the prices have increased faster than salaries. And who invests in the companies doing this to people, billionaires, and in Australia's case rich politicians.
 

Thaluikhain

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Have you two been living under a rock?
I've been living in Australia, and IIRC, Silvanus in the UK. Now, sure, there are problems in the countries you mentioned (Australia is also home to the world's most incarcerated ethnic group, as it happens), but that is not to say that that makes them worse than the US.
 
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Gergar12

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I've been living in Australia, and IIRC, Silvanus in the UK. Now, sure, there are problems in the countries you mentioned (Australia is also home to the world's most incarcerated ethnic group, as it happens), but that is not to say that that makes them worse than the US.
Try buying a home near where the jobs are. In many cases Australian prices and cost of living > US ones. Because the landlords, property developers, and property investors are gutting the system.



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Silvanus

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Have you two been living under a rock? Yes, those countries have robust healthcare systems. But the cost of living has skyrocketed. In Canada, food prices have gone up, and it's near damn impossible to get a home, rent is sharply increasing.



I don't even have to google this, it's everywhere on Tik Tok.

In the UK ditto.


Now Australia wouldn't be on this list normally since it enjoys lots of trade, but it's also ditto as well.

.



And I am sure you guys will come up with an explanation. But it's because the prices have increased faster than salaries. And who invests in the companies doing this to people, billionaires, and in Australia's case rich politicians.
Yeah, there's a cost of living crisis.

But there's also a cost of living crisis in the US, so that's not a point in the US's favour, above those other countries. Its a minus for both.

And meanwhile, the US is faring worse than those other countries in a hundred other ways: healthcare, political disenfranchisement, income inequality, pollution, education, violence and crime, oppression at the hands of the police, democratic backsliding...
 
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Thaluikhain

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Yeah, there's a cost of living crisis.

But there's also a cost of living crisis in the US, so that's not a point in the US's favour, above those other countries. Its a minus for both.

And meanwhile, the US is faring worse than those other countries in a hundred other ways: healthcare, political disenfranchisement, income inequality, pollution, education, violence and crime, oppression at the hands of the police, democratic backsliding...
One could also note that this thread was originally about one example of a severe problem that happens constantly in the US, which hardly ever occurs in the rest of the Western world.
 
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Gergar12

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Yeah, there's a cost of living crisis.

But there's also a cost of living crisis in the US, so that's not a point in the US's favour, above those other countries. Its a minus for both.

And meanwhile, the US is faring worse than those other countries in a hundred other ways: healthcare, political disenfranchisement, income inequality, pollution, education, violence and crime, oppression at the hands of the police, democratic backsliding...
Income inequality is everywhere. As of right now, it's bigger in the US, but eventually, it will be almost as big, as big, or even worst due to property speculators. Political disenfranchisement I agree with. Pollution... Wait for climate change and the wildfires, air quality will get a lot worse. Education somewhat but in the US if you go to a State school for college you should be fine, as for K-12 yeah we have shitty K-12. Violence, and crime I agree with but mostly because we have guns which gain will prove useful one day against economic concentration policies by the government, and oppression by the police yeah I agree with that. Democratic backsliding, the UK, and Canada are as worse if not worse at this, Canada has fewer checks on executive power, and the UK is banning protesting.
 

Silvanus

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Income inequality is everywhere. As of right now, it's bigger in the US, but eventually, it will be almost as big, as big, or even worst due to property speculators.
Except it's also growing faster in the US.

Political disenfranchisement I agree with. Pollution... Wait for climate change and the wildfires, air quality will get a lot worse.
Climate change which is driven more by the US than by the UK, Canada, France and Australia. So sure, you could say it might get almost as bad elsewhere eventually.... due to the actions of the US.

Education somewhat but in the US if you go to a State school for college you should be fine, as for K-12 yeah we have shitty K-12. Violence, and crime I agree with but mostly because we have guns which gain will prove useful one day against economic concentration policies by the government,
Firearms in the hands of the people are never, ever going to allow them to take on the military, overthrow the government and redress unpopular policies. That's a complete fantasy.

What they do is drive a colossal violent crime epidemic, unseen anywhere else in the developed world.

Democratic backsliding, the UK, and Canada are as worse if not worse at this, Canada has fewer checks on executive power, and the UK is banning protesting.
The UK is implementing some draconian anti-protest laws, yes... which the US is still worse for, seeing how the American polite routinely brutalise protesters already. And the US has a major party involved in intensive efforts to disenfranchise voters in the thousands. Even the UK and Canadian conservatives couldn't do something so brazenly anti-democratic, much as they'd sometimes like to.
 
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Gergar12

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The opposite solution will be for the US to get rid of the most potent guns like AR-15s, AKs, SKSs, and Glock pistols. And the government runs a hurricane over you. I want more lefties to have guns because look at France. They don't have guns and look at their protests right. Ineffective, no policy changes, and a government that will change the retirement age again.
 

Gergar12

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Except it's also growing faster in the US.



Climate change which is driven more by the US than by the UK, Canada, France and Australia. So sure, you could say it might get almost as bad elsewhere eventually.... due to the actions of the US.



Firearms in the hands of the people are never, ever going to allow them to take on the military, overthrow the government and redress unpopular policies. That's a complete fantasy.

What they do is drive a colossal violent crime epidemic, unseen anywhere else in the developed world.



The UK is implementing some draconian anti-protest laws, yes... which the US is still worse for, seeing how the American polite routinely brutalise protesters already. And the US has a major party involved in intensive efforts to disenfranchise voters in the thousands. Even the UK and Canadian conservatives couldn't do something so brazenly anti-democratic, much as they'd sometimes like to.
Again that's why we need our guns. Because this is a government for the few, owned by the few, and benefiting a few.

It will work. What won't work in France-style protests that don't go anywhere because it's too meek. General strikes won't work because you will be dragged out of your house by the police in droves without guns being everywhere, you can complain all you want about it but power is taken not given.
 

Silvanus

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Again that's why we need our guns. Because this is a government for the few, owned by the few, and benefiting a few.
Which guns have done nothing to stop, and can do nothing to stop. And which guns help perpetuate via the NRA.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Allowing people to have guns didn't help the Bonus army, the people living in Hoovervilles during the Depression, the okies during the Dustbowl after the Depression is generally said to have ended but didn't, nor the Japanese being interned etc

Conversely, rights for women, black people, LGBT people etc increased significantly without armed rebellion.
 
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Xprimentyl

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Firearms in the hands of the people are never, ever going to allow them to take on the military, overthrow the government and redress unpopular policies. That's a complete fantasy.
I've always said to people who cite our right to bear arms as a means to protect ourselves from the government approaching an autocracy: who fires the first shot, and who do they aim to kill? Could that person, in earnest, use their fear of the government's overreaching as a lawful exercising of the right to bear and use of firearms? We saw what happened on January 6th a couple years ago, and such "righteous" insurrectionists are getting prison time, and as far as I know, gun violence that day wasn't near the scale it'd take to actively subvert a government a scant, insane few don't agree with.
 

Gergar12

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Which guns have done nothing to stop, and can do nothing to stop. And which guns help perpetuate via the NRA.
Tell that to John Brown. As for guns and the NRA, when I buy stuff from Costco, Walmart, Disney, Apple, Amazon, Google, Target, etc. I am helping the republican party. I am giving them money to lobby and send campaign constructions to the Republicans, and corrupt democrats. Should I stop doing that or live in a cave and waste my time hunting down a local store that is paying their workers also a low wage of say 12 to 15 dollars an hour when the moral return on that isn't good either?

Edit: Modern examples include: Viet Cong, the Taliban, and the Kurds. Heck Urkaine showed what a cheaper anti-tank missile can do to a much more expensive tank ditto for anti-air stingers vs Migs and Su jets.
 
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Silvanus

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Tell that to John Brown.
The guy who failed to overthrow the state government and was executed?

And you think this shows how gun-nuts nowadays, when the gap between citizens' power and government power is a hundred times wider than it was then, could overthrow the federal government if they put in unpopular policies?

As for guns and the NRA, when I buy stuff from Costco, Walmart, Disney, Apple, Amazon, Google, Target, etc. I am helping the republican party.
If you think the impact of personal expenditure at supermarkets and entertainment companies is equivalent to the lobbying impact of the NRA, that's just silly.
 
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Satinavian

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It will work. What won't work in France-style protests that don't go anywhere because it's too meek
The French protests are pretty effective.

I don't see the protest culture in the US being even remotely as powerful or successful at getting their wishes compared to France.
 

Gergar12

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The guy who failed to overthrow the state government and was executed?

And you think this shows how gun-nuts nowadays, when the gap between citizens' power and government power is a hundred times wider than it was then, could overthrow the federal government if they put in unpopular policies?



If you think the impact of personal expenditure at supermarkets and entertainment companies is equivalent to the lobbying impact of the NRA, that's just silly.
But he ultimately won that is the point, slavery wasn't going to end in the South at least not for a couple more decades without a civil war. As for the gap between citizen power, and government power, I don't agree. Everything in a military needs a supply chain. Disrupt it and they can't run.

The French protests are pretty effective.

I don't see the protest culture in the US being even remotely as powerful or successful at getting their wishes compared to France.
Well, the retirement extension is still there. Yet the French head of state has basically played a waiting game against them. And time is on his side, not theirs. If I am a neoliberal head of state I just wait out any protests and eventually, my institutional power will win out. He will have a successor to run in the next election, and that person backed by the French billionaires will likely end up winning due to the backing of the French establishment.

I've always said to people who cite our right to bear arms as a means to protect ourselves from the government approaching an autocracy: who fires the first shot, and who do they aim to kill? Could that person, in earnest, use their fear of the government's overreaching as a lawful exercising of the right to bear and use of firearms? We saw what happened on January 6th a couple years ago, and such "righteous" insurrectionists are getting prison time, and as far as I know, gun violence that day wasn't near the scale it'd take to actively subvert a government a scant, insane few don't agree with.
When the food runs out, the economy suffers too much, or due to a lack of water like in any other revolution.
 

Silvanus

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But he ultimately won that is the point, slavery wasn't going to end in the South at least not for a couple more decades without a civil war.
Right-- it was ended by a civil war in which the victor was the federal government. Not individual citizens with guns taking on the government. Its sort of exactly the opposite of the situation you're describing.

As for the gap between citizen power, and government power, I don't agree. Everything in a military needs a supply chain. Disrupt it and they can't run.
And random citizens with guns in their sheds are going to be able to pull that off, are they? Defeat the most powerful military on the planet by "disrupting their supply chain"?
 

Thaluikhain

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And random citizens with guns in their sheds are going to be able to pull that off, are they? Defeat the most powerful military on the planet by "disrupting their supply chain"?
Whilst not having the state forces disrupt their supply chains in turn. Or even stop them from establishing a supply chain in the first place, because they don't come with one in place the way the military does.