The Actual Threat to Democracy

Silvanus

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And the course is just fine with a few minor revisions so that the class isn't against the law. It would be like complaining about a state banning a bomb making class because making bombs is against the law.
"It won't be banned any more if it changes its content" is not a defence-- especially since the law it supposedly broke is intentionally vague enough to allow the authorities to apply it to whatever they don't like.

You asked which course he barred, and I correctly answered. Not really interested in justifications.
 
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tstorm823

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You asked which course he barred, and I correctly answered.
It is possible to state something correct and lose an argument by doing so. As is the case with the general book banning conversation. Almost everyone is appalled by the idea of book bans, until you identify the books actually being banned from primary schools and they've got explicit illustrations or descriptions of sex acts, and then suddenly people stop being appalled by book bans.
 

Silvanus

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It is possible to state something correct and lose an argument by doing so. As is the case with the general book banning conversation. Almost everyone is appalled by the idea of book bans, until you identify the books actually being banned from primary schools and they've got explicit illustrations or descriptions of sex acts, and then suddenly people stop being appalled by book bans.
Pearl-clutching about sex education as a justification for removing educational materials.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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It is possible to state something correct and lose an argument by doing so. As is the case with the general book banning conversation. Almost everyone is appalled by the idea of book bans, until you identify the books actually being banned from primary schools and they've got explicit illustrations or descriptions of sex acts, and then suddenly people stop being appalled by book bans.
You're completely misrepresenting those books, lying by omission and flat out lying about said books that you've never read
 

tstorm823

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You're completely misrepresenting those books, lying by omission and flat out lying about said books that you've never read
I have read both "This Book Is Gay" and "Gender Queer", both of which have been pushed at young school children

The former has a section "How to argue with Christians" and "How to argue with Muslims", accepts and rationalizes why gay men are so much more promiscuous, tells a story about an underage boy flirting with a married adult man until they had sex on literally the first day he was legal as part of a "these are normal ways to lose your virginity" section, talks about the best wrist action for handjobs, and has a multi-page testimonial on how being HIV positive isn't a big deal:

"As a single guy I was always upfront with guys. I figured if they have a problem with me being HIV positive, it said a hell of a lot more about them than it did about me. I read profiles on dating sites say 'Clean only' and 'HIV negative - you should be too' and all I saw is fear and ignorance."

He goes onto say that HIV made him a better person and gave his life purpose. I'm sure that's the lesson you think sex ed is missing, right? That HIV can give you a purpose in life?

Gender Queer has the infamous illustration of giving a strap-on a blowjob, and the author states the intended audience was 16+ teens and adults. I'm not misrepresenting the book, it's about sex and for adults as stated by its author, and yet its shown up in middle schools.
 

Schadrach

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"It won't be banned any more if it changes its content" is not a defence-- especially since the law it supposedly broke is intentionally vague enough to allow the authorities to apply it to whatever they don't like.
Specifically the law in questions prohibits "training or instruction that espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels such student or employee to believe any of the following concepts:"
  1. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex are morally superior to members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.
  2. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.
  3. A person's moral character or status as either privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, national origin, or sex.
  4. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race, color, national origin, or sex.
  5. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex bears responsibility for, or should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of, actions committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
  6. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion.
  7. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears personal responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress because of actions, in which the person played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
  8. Such virtues as merit, excellence, hard work, fairness, neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist or sexist, or were created by members of a particular race, color, national origin, or sex to oppress members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.
That's the list. Quoted straight from the law in question. One of the things I've found interesting is the number of people reacting to the law in the media acting as though they were banning "CRT" and what "CRT" was was a vague wibbly-wobbly thing that could be whatever the current angry Republican wants it to be in the moment, but the law spells out a list of 8 items.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Specifically the law in questions prohibits "training or instruction that espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels such student or employee to believe any of the following concepts:"
  1. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex are morally superior to members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.
  2. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.
  3. A person's moral character or status as either privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, national origin, or sex.
  4. Members of one race, color, national origin, or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race, color, national origin, or sex.
  5. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex bears responsibility for, or should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of, actions committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
  6. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, national origin, or sex should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion.
  7. A person, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears personal responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress because of actions, in which the person played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, national origin, or sex.
  8. Such virtues as merit, excellence, hard work, fairness, neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist or sexist, or were created by members of a particular race, color, national origin, or sex to oppress members of another race, color, national origin, or sex.
That's the list. Quoted straight from the law in question. One of the things I've found interesting is the number of people reacting to the law in the media acting as though they were banning "CRT" and what "CRT" was was a vague wibbly-wobbly thing that could be whatever the current angry Republican wants it to be in the moment, but the law spells out a list of 8 items.
By this metric, talking about Japanese American reparations for internment during WW2 is "CRT" and should be banned
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I have read both "This Book Is Gay" and "Gender Queer", both of which have been pushed at young school children

The former has a section "How to argue with Christians" and "How to argue with Muslims", accepts and rationalizes why gay men are so much more promiscuous, tells a story about an underage boy flirting with a married adult man until they had sex on literally the first day he was legal as part of a "these are normal ways to lose your virginity" section, talks about the best wrist action for handjobs, and has a multi-page testimonial on how being HIV positive isn't a big deal:

"As a single guy I was always upfront with guys. I figured if they have a problem with me being HIV positive, it said a hell of a lot more about them than it did about me. I read profiles on dating sites say 'Clean only' and 'HIV negative - you should be too' and all I saw is fear and ignorance."

He goes onto say that HIV made him a better person and gave his life purpose. I'm sure that's the lesson you think sex ed is missing, right? That HIV can give you a purpose in life?

Gender Queer has the infamous illustration of giving a strap-on a blowjob, and the author states the intended audience was 16+ teens and adults. I'm not misrepresenting the book, it's about sex and for adults as stated by its author, and yet its shown up in middle schools.
So yeah, lying about and misrepresenting the books. Hell, Gender Queer ends with the author miserable with er own body, not liking sex, and quietly living in the closet to not cause a ruckus. It's basically the end result you want for all queer people, if you can't torture conversion therapy them into being cis and straight

But okay, what happens immediately *after* the "infamous blowjob (if you squint) scene (panel)"?

What happens the second time the author goes to the gynecologist?

I can think of three things more "objectionable" than the two scenes you know about from memes and it's absolutely *wild* how none of you conservatives ever bring them up
 
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Schadrach

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By this metric, talking about Japanese American reparations for internment during WW2 is "CRT" and should be banned
I'm assuming you're thinking it would violate 5 and 7, specifically regarding those whose national origin is the US? But I'm not seeing how teaching about the reparations act requires teaching US-born students that they should feel guilt or responsibility for the actions of the US government during WW2.

But either way that's a far cry from the claims that it's vague and can encapsulate anything that a conservative doesn't like.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I'm assuming you're thinking it would violate 5 and 7, specifically regarding those whose national origin is the US? But I'm not seeing how teaching about the reparations act requires teaching US-born students that they should feel guilt or responsibility for the actions of the US government during WW2.

But either way that's a far cry from the claims that it's vague and can encapsulate anything that a conservative doesn't like.
Wild how you've never seen a conservative argue. What about this curriculum violates the rules?
 

tstorm823

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So yeah, lying about and misrepresenting the books. Hell, Gender Queer ends with the author miserable with er own body, not liking sex, and quietly living in the closet to not cause a ruckus. It's basically the end result you want for all queer people, if you can't torture conversion therapy them into being cis and straight

But okay, what happens immediately *after* the "infamous blowjob (if you squint) scene (panel)"?

What happens the second time the author goes to the gynecologist?

I can think of three things more "objectionable" than the two scenes you know about from memes and it's absolutely *wild* how none of you conservatives ever bring them up
Why would I need more? Why would I need to describe the authors surprise to learn not everyone reads slash fiction? How does there being more objectionable content help your argument?
 

tstorm823

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Well, because the context makes it clear the intent isn't pornographic, and you cut it in order to mislead people into thinking it is pornographic.
The explicit intent of the author was a book for people 16 and older.

Also, an adult talking about the types of porn they like may not be pornography itself, but it's definitely not child appropriate material.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Why would I need more? Why would I need to describe the authors surprise to learn not everyone reads slash fiction? How does there being more objectionable content help your argument?
Because it clearly shows that you haven't read, and are subsequently lying about, the book in question. Wouldn't want kids to learn that sex can be mundane or even something it's okay to avoid, then it wouldn't have that Forbidden Fruit tangibility that you can demonize

What's the matter, worried that actually reading the thing will engender some empathy?
 
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tstorm823

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Because it clearly shows that you haven't read, and are subsequently lying about, the book in question. Wouldn't want kids to learn that sex can be mundane or even something it's okay to avoid, then it wouldn't have that Forbidden Fruit tangibility that you can demonize

What's the matter, worried that actually reading the thing will engender some empathy?
You really think I'm pretending to have read a book when I haven't? That is a silly thing. It's not even long, and its a graphic novel, it takes almost no effort to read the whole thing.

Yes, I understand, you're trying to say something like "you think its encouraging sex when it isn't", but that's hardly the point. Crime and Punishment doesn't encourage murder, and it's a fantastic novel, I would not hand it to an 11 year old. The moral of a story being against something doesn't mitigate graphic depictions of that thing potentially messing with a kids mind.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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You really think I'm pretending to have read a book when I haven't? That is a silly thing. It's not even long, and its a graphic novel, it takes almost no effort to read the whole thing.
And yet, here we are, you having done just that
Yes, I understand, you're trying to say something like "you think its encouraging sex when it isn't", but that's hardly the point. Crime and Punishment doesn't encourage murder, and it's a fantastic novel, I would not hand it to an 11 year old. The moral of a story being against something doesn't mitigate graphic depictions of that thing potentially messing with a kids mind.
Why not? Middle schoolers are entering puberty, where something like Gender Queer can help some of them put names to feelings. And Animorphs will "mess with a kid's mind" way more than that will. Let them read Crime and Punishment, if they want. That's about the time I read The Stand. You're raising fragile adults

No cis straight kid is gonna read Gender Queer and go "Wow! Being queer is awesome! I wish I was trans and gay!"
 

tstorm823

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Why not? Middle schoolers are entering puberty, where something like Gender Queer can help some of them put names to feelings.
Feelings are not a fixed attribute. They are controllable and malleable. Puberty does not inherently develop an affinity for erotic internet fanfiction within someone who doesn't know it exists, I don't want books in schools to expose children to that kind of culture.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Feelings are not a fixed attribute. They are controllable and malleable. Puberty does not inherently develop an affinity for erotic internet fanfiction within someone who doesn't know it exists, I don't want books in schools to expose children to that kind of culture.
Again, misrepresentation and lies. Was talking about the queer kids and how they're starting to feel with the hormones kicking up, but the only thing you know about Gender Queer are the two pages that the memes told you to be mad at so you have zero idea what I'm talking about.
 

tstorm823

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Again, misrepresentation and lies. Was talking about the queer kids and how they're starting to feel with the hormones kicking up, but the only thing you know about Gender Queer are the two pages that the memes told you to be mad at so you have zero idea what I'm talking about.
Oh, you haven't read it. I understand now.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Oh, you haven't read it. I understand now.
Name two things that happen that aren't these two specific things you always bring up

Hell, point out the point of that singular bubble of dialogue you get mad at

Banning shit because you think it might be bad without you knowing what it actually *is* is bullshit. You're raising fragile adults with zero critical thinking skills
 
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