Baldur's Gate 3

[meiam]

I think the other intrinsic problem with computer RPGs is that they overwhelmingly tend to favour min-maxing in a way that pen and paper does not. Granted, there's often plenty of "playing the system" with either, but whereas a human DM can tailor the encounters to the party or otherwise arrange things, a computer game tends to be set up with a 'challenge' that the player builds a character to meet.

Well DM will talk to player too and can rule lawyer, a lot of problem comes from rule as written being easily exploitable but obviously breaking spirit of the game. A DM will spot that and prevent a player from breaking the rule. Say a talent said something like "every time you get hurt, you heal for 1D8 health", a player could argue that if their character pinch himself it should trigger it, which would conform to the rule as written but no DM would let that pass. But a game might have some item, say a suit of armor that take off 1 point of damage every time a character move, which would trigger the talent and there's no DM to shut that down.

 

[Satinavian]

I cant speak for BG3, but DnD rule aren't very good at avoiding incredibly broken build. Because of the relatively simple nature of the system with a large amount of trait/perk, you can often end up with crazy amount of bonus stacking on top of each others (ie having AC 50 when the game is expecting AC30-40 makes you pretty much immortal). If the hardest difficulty setting cater to those build then there's not much someone can do outside of accidentally stumbling onto one of those broken build.

That shouldn't be even remotely true for fifth edition which had bounded accuracy as design principle and has been the current one for quite a number of years.

Are you maybe thinking of 3E ?

 

[sXeth]

Idk, this sounds like a big deal. Here’s a massive, choice-heavy RPG sequel that Larian has all but pulled off, that people have been waiting over two decades for. Meanwhile TotK is basically more BotW but quirkier. If it’s between the two I think BG3 could sway all but the most fervent Nintendo fanboys and girls.

Eh, I think BG3 has its niche audience. A loud and vocal niche, but very much a niche nonetheless.

Outside of the CRPG/DnD enthusiasts or the nostalgia crew, most people think its the F-a-Bear game and know little else.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I would suggest that this is an unnecessarily restrictive idea of what a game (or any other piece of media) should be.

That people do two things at once (even for instance something as simple as listen to music and read a book) suggests that's what they want to do, and so they might not always want media that completely consumes their attention alone, but stuff that "fills the gaps", or "background noise".

The best games for filling your attention are action games, because you generally can't afford to be doing something else otherwise you get distracted and miss things, get shot, etc. Anything turn based or readily pausible lends itself extremely well to being done alongside distractions.

I beg to differ. Maybe on first playthrough not, but I used to play Zelda: ALttP constantly while listening to the radio or CDs as a kid, and it was always good fun. Same with F-Zero, Mario Kart, DKC, Blast Corps, fighting games, etc.

I think it really depends on the driver of the game, which in BG3’s case would ultimately be story. Then the deciding factor would be, how engaging is the story? If it’s good enough to turn off any other media while playing, then your point stands.

I didn't say you can't listen to music and do something else. But if the content requires doing something else to be entertaining enough, then that's a problem. I listen to music doing other stuff, but even something as basic as driving, you miss quite a bit if it's good music vs if you were just completely focusing on the music.

If you need something on like a podcast (as Luke was referring to) that's you having to follow a conversation (vs background noise) when playing an RPG, then I'd say it's a pretty bad RPG.

I disagree. There are lots of great games i played with a podcast on. Like Wow, diablo 2, grinding sessions in final fantasy, elite dangerous, pokemon, animal crossing, stardew valley, etc etc.

I dont think the idea of playing a game while listening to a podcast or watching a show is a problem with the game.

Basically what I said above. Also, I don't have any patience for grinding in games whatsoever.

Right?
As of this moment, it looks like BG3 is inviting all the "I'm better than you" smug nerd takes. It's like Elden Ring * 10 if this keeps up. It's the assholes that insist on only listening to music on vinyl or lecturing you for your chicken not being free range or whatever bullshit hoity-toity snobbery we encounter, but in game form. That's just the internet vibe I'm getting all over the place. So I kinda hate this game now.
I'll get over that feeling by the time I can play it I'm sure (PS5) but the initial reactions are unbearable.

I said BG3 is par for the course, it's just what an RPG is supposed to be. The thing is we really don't get these games very much. It's the same as say immersive sims becoming like Bioshock Infinite vs something like Dishonored. Dishonored is what they are supposed to be and finally getting one like that is relieving. That's essentially BG3, not many developers make actual RPGs and getting one is awesome.

BG3's fanbase is niche, that's why it's hilarious to see its reception. It's like if Pitchfork started promoting obscure avant-garde experimental jazz or something. And I respect obscure experimental avant-garde jazz I just don't expect regular people to wanna listen to it. And no matter how much game critics blow smoke up its ass or how actually great it may be, it's not winning GOTY.

Uhh... BG3 early access release (3 years back) and actual release literally broke Steam.

Baldur’s Gate 3 has just broken Steam

As Baldur’s Gate 3 hits launch, a huge spike in Steam outages is reported, suggesting the Larian RPG is so popular it is wreaking havoc on Valve’s store.

www.pcgamesn.com

I don't have a "hang up" with Zelda. I have a problem with gaming journalism and being dishonest, or just playing favorites, because it's Nintendo and not wanting to piss off the irate fanboys and fangirls. I respect the franchise to a degree, but I'm mostly indifferent to it. The most fun I've ever had with the franchise are to spin-offs, and Twilight Princess.

Why do you even care what gaming journalism says or doesn't say? You can, you know, not pay attention to stuff you don't like. You sure seem to very passionately care about that you claim you don't care about.

 

[Ag3ma]

I said BG3 is par for the course, it's just what an RPG is supposed to be. The thing is we really don't get these games very much. It's the same as say immersive sims becoming like Bioshock Infinite vs something like Dishonored. Dishonored is what they are supposed to be and finally getting one like that is relieving. That's essentially BG3, not many developers make actual RPGs and getting one is awesome.

Plenty of developers make these sorts of RPGs, just you need to look at indy devs to find a lot of them.

 

[meiam]

That shouldn't be even remotely true for fifth edition which had bounded accuracy as design principle and has been the current one for quite a number of years.

Are you maybe thinking of 3E ?

It's a general comment on all form of pen and paper system, they can't use complex system with non linear stat progression (ie stats become less useful the more you have) since that would make combat drag on like crazy for human to deal with, so even small increase in stats can quickly make a character outside the expected bound, which can quickly make a character OP. Also as they expand and add more class/perk, the amount available to the player become staggering, coming from many different designer, its impossible to keep track of them all and some end up interacting with each others in strange and unintended way.

I messed around with 4th ed character creation a few years ago and some of the obscure talent from side book and magazine were stupendously broken that by level 4 I could easily make character that were unkillable.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

It's a bit niche (first person RPGs tend to sell much better), but should still be capable of shifting well over a million copies on PC alone if it does well.

BG3 sold 2.5 million during early access alone.

Plenty of developers make these sorts of RPGs, just you need to look at indy devs to find a lot of them.

They really don't. Larian is freaking indie and there's a reason why Divinity and Larian is so well known/regarded and others aren't. Disco Elysium is another of the few games that are actual RPGs.

 

[Ag3ma]

Larian is freaking indie

I think calling Larian "indie" is taking the piss. Larian is independent, in the sense it didn't require external funding from a major publisher. But "indie" is more than just an abbreviation of "independent": it has strong connotations of low-modest budgets / manpower involved which are incompatible with the likes of BG3.

They really don't.

There are plenty. Every year, more roll out. It depends how narrowly you want to define the style of game, but for the basic concept of party-based (non-FPS) RPG, there's not a shortage. Not least because this inevitably includes the host of JRPGs (which I generally hate, but aren't going to pretend don't count) out there. You're also looking at borderline games like the Jagged Alliance series (which might more usually be described as a squad-based strategy game and is relatively lighter on RPG elements) but even still are close enough.

I appreciate that some people find the experience of staring at primitive graphics painful to their soul, but for those willing to do so it's just not that hard to find stuff to play for most of the average year.

 

[Trunkage]

BG3 sold 2.5 million during early access alone.


They really don't. Larian is freaking indie and there's a reason why Divinity and Larian is so well known/regarded and others aren't. Disco Elysium is another of the few games that are actual RPGs.

It has sold well for a cRPG

It's also niche as it automatically excludes a bunch of people who dislike how it present itself.

Like, I like Pillars and Disco and Divinity. I am the target group. But that's not most gamers.

I think this game is going to convert some people to cRPGs and it's going to be popular with those already in the group.

But many people will completely ignore it because it is a cRPG. Similarly, dating sim games are completely ignored by those outside of the target audience

 

[CriticalGaming]

It has sold well for a cRPG

It's also niche as it automatically excludes a bunch of people who dislike how it present itself.

Like, I like Pillars and Disco and Divinity. I am the target group. But that's not most gamers.

I think this game is going to convert some people to cRPGs and it's going to be popular with those already in the group.

But many people will completely ignore it because it is a cRPG. Similarly, dating sim games are completely ignored by those outside of the target audience

I think every game has potential to convert new people into whatever genre. This game will probably have extra overlap from dnd nerds because weve not had a good dnd game in fucking forever.

 

[Dreiko]

Regarding the chat earlier about how niche this game will be, I just noticed this happened.

500k concurrent players, and ps5 ver isn't even out yet lol.

I would suggest that this is an unnecessarily restrictive idea of what a game (or any other piece of media) should be.

That people do two things at once (even for instance something as simple as listen to music and read a book) suggests that's what they want to do, and so they might not always want media that completely consumes their attention alone, but stuff that "fills the gaps", or "background noise".

The best games for filling your attention are action games, because you generally can't afford to be doing something else otherwise you get distracted and miss things, get shot, etc. Anything turn based or readily pausible lends itself extremely well to being done alongside distractions.

I think the argument is that if you're doing two things at once you're not really engaging with either of them, meaning, they failed to make you want to do that. It's not a dig on you, but on the game. And an argument that if you had found a game you were super duper into, any distraction would be seen as an affront.

I've never done something else while reading a book, I dunno how you can meaningfully read a book while not in complete silence. It's why you're not supposed to be loud in libraries lol.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I think calling Larian "indie" is taking the piss. Larian is independent, in the sense it didn't require external funding from a major publisher. But "indie" is more than just an abbreviation of "independent": it has strong connotations of low-modest budgets / manpower involved which are incompatible with the likes of BG3.



There are plenty. Every year, more roll out. It depends how narrowly you want to define the style of game, but for the basic concept of party-based (non-FPS) RPG, there's not a shortage. Not least because this inevitably includes the host of JRPGs (which I generally hate, but aren't going to pretend don't count) out there. You're also looking at borderline games like the Jagged Alliance series (which might more usually be described as a squad-based strategy game and is relatively lighter on RPG elements) but even still are close enough.

I appreciate that some people find the experience of staring at primitive graphics painful to their soul, but for those willing to do so it's just not that hard to find stuff to play for most of the average year.

Larian WAS "indie" at one point at least, though everyone seems to have different definitions for it. They used Kickstarter for both Divinitys IIRC. I would agree that BG3's budget is too high to be considered indie regardless if they still are technically independent.

And I'm specifically referring to RPGs that prioritize role-playing (as that was the thing Luke mentioned from the video that BG3 is a ROLE-PLAYING game, emphasis on role-playing), very few of those get made. I don't think there's a single JRPG that I'd consider an RPG in my book. I think Catherine might be the "JRPG" with the most role-playing that I ever played, though that's not considered a JRPG. Final Fantasy, for example, features like no role-playing.

It has sold well for a cRPG

It's also niche as it automatically excludes a bunch of people who dislike how it present itself.

Like, I like Pillars and Disco and Divinity. I am the target group. But that's not most gamers.

I think this game is going to convert some people to cRPGs and it's going to be popular with those already in the group.

But many people will completely ignore it because it is a cRPG. Similarly, dating sim games are completely ignored by those outside of the target audience

Pillars is sorta same-y to Divinity/BG if just getting a bulleted-point description and that's it. But Pillars writing is really dense and there's just so much text. Also, it has the real-time and pause type combat that I'm just not a fan of at all, and I think many others are turned off by, it feels more RTS-y than RPG-y to me. I know Pillars 2 added the option for full turned-based combat but that to me means the game is gonna take way longer to get through if you go that route because each battle will take longer turned-based and I doubt they took out combats and tuned the game so playing either way equals the same length approximately. You can't just make a game for real-time and simply also change it to turned-based without fucking shit up. All that is why Pillars 2 didn't sell well vs Divinity or BG3.

Disco Elysium is more niche because it's all dialogue and narrative, no combat. Even with that, it sold over 2.5 million, which is more than Mass Effect and half of Mass Effect 2, which are AAA games, from a few gens back but still that's pretty impressive for something like Disco Elysium.

Divinity 2 sold over 7.5 million without being part of some massive brand or IP. I think BG3 will sell at least 10 million (it sold 2.5 from early access already) since it has the DnD brand behind it and DnD is bigger than it's ever been. To put things in perspective, RE4 Remake has sold 5 million so far, is BG3 still considered niche if it outsells RE4 Remake?

 

[Ag3ma]

I think the argument is that if you're doing two things at once you're not really engaging with either of them, meaning, they failed to make you want to do that. It's not a dig on you, but on the game. And an argument that if you had found a game you were super duper into, any distraction would be seen as an affront.

I'm just going to point out that by that argument, the incidental music which many games and films have means you can't concentrate on the action / dialogue.

I've never done something else while reading a book, I dunno how you can meaningfully read a book while not in complete silence. It's why you're not supposed to be loud in libraries lol.

You need to understand that people are different, and some people can read books and listen to things at the same time.

Where I partially agree is that I think the question of what they are listening to matters: conversation can be disruptive because you're trying to take in language and you're getting an earful of language from another source. It also depends on the book: many of them simply don't have the complexity to require your full attention. If you are studying from a textbook or reading a deep, literary novel, for instance, you are not just reading but also trying to process complex ideas. If you're reading a Jack Reacher novel, you don't require anything like that sort of concentration.

 

[Ag3ma]

is BG3 still considered niche if it outsells RE4 Remake?

Irrespective of BG3 selling well, that style of game is still (at least at the current time, given they can go in and out of fashion) relatively niche.

Pillars of Eternity or Wasteland 3, for instance, are regarded as among the best and most successful in the field: they're around 1-2 million copies sold. That's good, but it's also towards an order of magnitude lower than would be expected for a major mainstream title - around the breakeven point for a lower-end cost AAA title with a budget of $50 million. By comparison premium RPGs like Final Fantasy, Fallout and Elder Scrolls can regularly shift over 10 million. That's a big difference.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Irrespective of BG3 selling well, that style of game is still (at least at the current time, given they can go in and out of fashion) relatively niche.

Pillars of Eternity or Wasteland 3, for instance, are regarded as among the best and most successful in the field: they're around 1-2 million copies sold. That's good, but it's also towards an order of magnitude lower than would be expected for a major mainstream title - around the breakeven point for a lower-end cost AAA title with a budget of $50 million. By comparison premium RPGs like Final Fantasy, Fallout and Elder Scrolls can regularly shift over 10 million. That's a big difference.

Is the style inherently niche though? A game like Resident Evil without the name doesn't sell as well like Evil Within didn't do RE numbers. Hell, I think Disco Elysium outsold Evil Within 2. What if CRPGs can stand with "mainstream" genres if they get production values and have similar brand recognition? How would they be considered niche then?

If BG3 was say Pathfinder branded vs DnD, it would definitely sell less even if it was the exact same game. Pillars and Wasteland don't have nearly the branding of Fallout or Final Fantasy or Elder Scrolls. DnD is up there with those brands though. Pillars and Wasteland also have their host of issues that make them niche (I already mentioned Pillars issues). For example, Wasteland 3, you gotta read a FAQ to understand what the fuck the stats actually do. I took a break from playing it and the main reason I haven't went back is because I gotta relearn the game's unintuitive systems. DnD has gotten more and more popular because it's gotten more intuitive (AC stat used to be negative for example). And all the stats are rather simple to grasp (strength for melee, dex for range, con for health, magic stat varies by class) whereas in Wasteland 3, try to tell me which stat to increase to make my sniper do more damage (with just the basic descriptions).

 

[thebobmaster]

Another possible sign that BG3 might be crossing over the "niche" threshold.

Baldur’s Gate 3 has just broken Steam

As Baldur’s Gate 3 hits launch, a huge spike in Steam outages is reported, suggesting the Larian RPG is so popular it is wreaking havoc on Valve’s store.

www.pcgamesn.com

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

At the risk of semantic navel-gazing, maybe we all have different ideas of "niche." To me, selling a lot on Steam means it's a successful niche product because Steam means you're just talking about PC players. To me, console and mobile gaming are mainstream. And I know PC gaming has gotten bigger of late but still. I mean I don't have the numbers in front of me but in my mind, Tears of the Kingdom is a mainstream game 'cause Nintendo is a mainstream product for kids and families and adults, while PC is for... well, it's a big niche, the nerds who know how to buy/build/maintain a gaming rig.

But in GOTY discussions we're talking about critics and reviewers, so who knows. I will just be SHOCKED if it beats out TOTK or Starfield for any awards it's nominated against except for maybe writing.

 

[Dreiko]

I'm just going to point out that by that argument, the incidental music which many games and films have means you can't concentrate on the action / dialogue.



You need to understand that people are different, and some people can read books and listen to things at the same time.

Where I partially agree is that I think the question of what they are listening to matters: conversation can be disruptive because you're trying to take in language and you're getting an earful of language from another source. It also depends on the book: many of them simply don't have the complexity to require your full attention. If you are studying from a textbook or reading a deep, literary novel, for instance, you are not just reading but also trying to process complex ideas. If you're reading a Jack Reacher novel, you don't require anything like that sort of concentration.

If the music is integrated into the scene, that is one thing, and if the music is from some background radio or something that is not always supposed to be there but is procedurally generated, that's another. Usually, scenes with the former usage of music, time the music to play during particular bits of action to enhance them, whereas with the latter it's just randomly placed and missmatched. Think of something like the radio in GTA or modern fallout games, where the player can control it so the dev can't possibly intend for it to play in any particular timing to get an idea of what I mean, and then contrast it with the usage of Beethoven during the fight on the moon in Asura's Wrath, where every note is perfectly timed with an activity from the characters, to see what I mean.

Here it is so you won't have to look for it:



And yeah I think we're saying the same thing here, Jack Reacher isn't gonna hold your attention the same way other things are. I don't think that's elitist to say.

 

[Ag3ma]

Is the style inherently niche though?

Nothing is inherently niche. If tomorrow 20 million people decide to play hardcore hex wargames, hardcore hex wargames have gone mainstream mass market.

If BG3 was say Pathfinder branded vs DnD, it would definitely sell less even if it was the exact same game.

This is hard to say, because BG3 also has the BG brand. A lot of that excitement is about the resurrection of a legendary series. It has Larian's brand name. It might be little more than getting the marketing and hype machine just right.

I mean, I pity people buying BG3 because of the D&D system, because the D&D system is kind of shit (Pathfinder, being a D&D spin-off, has much the same problem). Numerous devs have avoided it simply because they don't want to be bogged down by that shitness. Certainly, though D&D has brand recognition.

I'm just going to say right now, after about 2 days of playing BG3, I think Pillars of Eternity 1/2 and Wasteland 2/3 are significantly better games. BG is pretty good in certain ways, but deeply mediocre in others.

 

[CriticalGaming]

This game is absolutely fantastic. They've managed to make the story feel like a real DnD game in which you stumble across a dozen different story threads, and things to pursue, on top of just seemingly random shit.

I stumbled into a dog pacing a dead body, and I happened to have a potion of animal speaking so I talked to him and he was protecting his master who was dead. I tried talking him into joining me but failed when I yelled at the body to prove him dead. The dog attacked me and I had to fight him. So I turned everything non-lethal and knocked the dog out. Then I robbed his owner who happened to have magic armor, so....neat.

A random choice had me ending up to kill one of the companions, just dead outright. Oops.

Fought an Owl Bear in a random cave, got fucking murdered. Reloaded and realized I needed a long rest, so i did that and was able to beat the boss that time....bearly (lol). There was a baby owl bear in the cave and I killed it, but I took an owl bear egg and it will become my most powerful minion.

Great game.