Baldur's Gate 3

[CriticalGaming]

Kind of vaguely related because a friend of mine was mentioning on how their's apparently some online blowback about whichever character being "racist" to the Gith party member. While I haven't kept up with how Forgotten Realms has gone in 5th ed, the Gith are very dangerous chaotic neutral at best, alien invaders. The only odd part about someone being leery of them is that they even know what the hell a Githyanki is ot begin with. (From what I've osmosed, the game sort of 50/50s on this with the mind flayers, everyone seems to know exactly what the parasite is, which is dumb, but at least people who can address it are rare)

The campaign that they've created here is very clearly a "high power" campaign, as it's commonly called in the tabletop circles. Generally groups that run these kinds of campaigns have a lot more magic items and general power for both the PC's and the bad guys. But beyond that, since the evil your dealing with tends to me the more dangerous stuff, by nature the DM's generally grant more knowledge upon the NPC's in the world to compensate and help the campaign move forward. Imagine having a mind flayer parasite in your head and you spend 20 hours with every NPC telling you they have no fucking clue what you're talking about? It would make sense in a way but also super annoying for a player, so it's understandable why there seems to be a more common knowledge base for the problem helped by the fact that there are only a couple of possible solutions for you it seems.

 

[CriticalGaming]

 

[FakeSympathy]

Currently into 38 hours mark. I was following up on nightsong quest, which led me to underdark. And I pretty much gave up on exploring it for now. Not only the nightsong quest seem to end for now (literally says on the journal entry), but this place is so dangerous for my current level 4 party. Tried fighting the spectator? Party wipe. Accidentally walking into explosive mushrooms? Party wipe. Try exploring the wizard tower? Party wipe. Maybe I'll come back after reaching level 5, or even 6.

Now I'm trying to rescue Halsin. Killed off two of the leaders at the goblin camp. The third one is proving a bit tricky (it's the one sitting on the throne); I could use invisibility + shove to push him off into the abyss, but a fight breaks out immediately. One of the goblins can start a conversation with you and you gotta pass rather high intimidation check. I got lucky after several attempts, but the fight still happened.

How to kill this mofo? hmm.....

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Listening to Slightly Something Else now and they pointed out that the PS5 version of BG3 is going to function a bit differently with "more of a 3rd person" perspective or something.
Awesome if true and would be more likely to hook me in.

 

[sXeth]

The campaign that they've created here is very clearly a "high power" campaign, as it's commonly called in the tabletop circles. Generally groups that run these kinds of campaigns have a lot more magic items and general power for both the PC's and the bad guys. But beyond that, since the evil your dealing with tends to me the more dangerous stuff, by nature the DM's generally grant more knowledge upon the NPC's in the world to compensate and help the campaign move forward. Imagine having a mind flayer parasite in your head and you spend 20 hours with every NPC telling you they have no fucking clue what you're talking about? It would make sense in a way but also super annoying for a player, so it's understandable why there seems to be a more common knowledge base for the problem helped by the fact that there are only a couple of possible solutions for you it seems.

An illithid ship just did a tumble over a major city and crash landed. Wouldn't be that hard to bring in someone who's justifiably an expert to the region investigating that. Without diminishing your apparent mega villains by making them seem only slightly more unexpected then a passing orc band.

And yeah, the obligatory checklist is probably WotC themselves (surprised Drizzt doesn't show up, but maybe he's less in vogue now), that doesn't really diminish how goofy it it all seems.


As the game itself goes, it's D&D without DM oversight. Literally listening in discord to firends complain about terrible rolls (or enemies jumping to up to an inaccessible cliff). All the stuff that covers why videogame D&D (regardless if this is the best ever, miles ahead of others, attempt) is a terrible idea. In actual D&D you'd have options to handle the latter case, and terrible rolls don't end the story and force you to do over, they provide variance and change to it.

 

[CriticalGaming]

An illithid ship just did a tumble over a major city and crash landed. Wouldn't be that hard to bring in someone who's justifiably an expert to the region investigating that. Without diminishing your apparent mega villains by making them seem only slightly more unexpected then a passing orc band.

And yeah, the obligatory checklist is probably WotC themselves (surprised Drizzt doesn't show up, but maybe he's less in vogue now), that doesn't really diminish how goofy it it all seems.

I mean it's a D&D setting, I'm there to suspend my disbelief anyway so nothing about this bothers me personally. I'd rather people know about the illithids rather than spending the first 20 hours with NPC's going, "I've no fucking clue what you're on about."

 

[Dreiko]

Listening to Slightly Something Else now and they pointed out that the PS5 version of BG3 is going to function a bit differently with "more of a 3rd person" perspective or something.
Awesome if true and would be more likely to hook me in.

I had seen screencaps of the "zoomed, over the shoulder" camera and it basically looked like any other 3rd person rpg out there, and yeah the game world is beautiful enough to want that. It zoomed almost as close as it zooms during dialogue.

 

[Ag3ma]

Currently into 38 hours mark. I was following up on nightsong quest, which led me to underdark. And I pretty much gave up on exploring it for now. Not only the nightsong quest seem to end for now (literally says on the journal entry), but this place is so dangerous for my current level 4 party. Tried fighting the spectator? Party wipe. Accidentally walking into explosive mushrooms? Party wipe. Try exploring the wizard tower? Party wipe. Maybe I'll come back after reaching level 5, or even 6.

You'll be fine in the Underdark at level 5 - as long as you go the right way. Actually, this has been probably the best balanced part of the game for me so far. I would complete all of the crash site area before you go there, you should level up to 5 when the crash site area is nearly done. Mushrooms, not so bad - I passed a knowledge check and got a warning before I got too close.

However, there are elements of poor design. The Underdark is full of chasms: so whoever thought it was a good idea to put a bulette in there that can knock half your party over the edge on the first turn it appears (quit and reload!) needs a slap. Really, needlessly frustrating. And then there's also another fight I've had to reload three times for the same fucking reason: they put it right next to a lava field and a load of the enemies can - and will - push you in. And this is harder to avoid than you think because...

I quite like the shove mechanic - it's aesthetically pleasing pushing enemies off high places. Although they can also do it to you, and the distance some of the knockback effects have is completely absurd. You think you're a very safe distance from the edge, except it turns out that guy can push you a very long way. It makes me think they've accidentally coded 5 feet as 5 metres.

Actually, another gripe I have about mechanics: you have a party. Unless there's a a character who is locked in for an action and there's a good reason no-one else can contribute, I think it should default to best ability in the party on skill checks. For instance, you start a conversation and it needs a history test, but you didn't select the party member with the history skill, tough luck you're using the illiterate. Or you end the conversation and swap round the character (if it lets you) to the one you want and go through again. This does not feel well designed. On the other hand, maybe that's unfair: it does give you some reason to take a balanced character with plenty of skills and versatility rather than a min-maxed combat machine.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Well, skimming through this thread it sounds like it's a game planned by a novice GM to put in a load of cool shit but without the ability to fudge things or make changes when they realise it's maybe a bit beyond the party mechanically.

Hmm, I dunno, I suppose save and reload is how you fudge it in a computer game, but it feels off in an RPG in the DnD universe. Dark Souls has an in universe mechanic to explain your constant death and retry but the 20th time a friendly wandering cleric found your mutilated corpses and had a few resurrection spells to cast when they got to the nearest safe spot to do so, which just happened to be at you last save location...

I'm not actually against putting in enemies that are too tough and you're going to have to come back later more tooled up, it sounds a bit like there's a lot of them though.

Well, I'll get to play it and decide for myself in about 3 years when it's 75% off on steam.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Well, skimming through this thread it sounds like it's a game planned by a novice GM to put in a load of cool shit but without the ability to fudge things or make changes when they realise it's maybe a bit beyond the party mechanically.

Hmm, I dunno, I suppose save and reload is how you fudge it in a computer game, but it feels off in an RPG in the DnD universe. Dark Souls has an in universe mechanic to explain your constant death and retry but the 20th time a friendly wandering cleric found your mutilated corpses and had a few resurrection spells to cast when they got to the nearest safe spot to do so, which just happened to be at you last save location...

I'm not actually against putting in enemies that are too tough and you're going to have to come back later more tooled up, it sounds a bit like there's a lot of them though.

Well, I'll get to play it and decide for myself in about 3 years when it's 75% off on steam.

I mean a computer game cannot be programed with the adaptation of the human mind yet. The game world has to be prebuilt and premade with challenges at various places. So no matter what you are going to have to compromise somewhere.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

I mean a computer game cannot be programed with the adaptation of the human mind yet. The game world has to be prebuilt and premade with challenges at various places. So no matter what you are going to have to compromise somewhere.

Yeah... I mean I get the point that a video game can't really be a D&D experience but.. so what? Does anyone really expect it to be?

I guess the thing with this game is- is the appeal as a good video game, or as a D&D sim? Because personally I'm just not interested in the latter.

 

[Satinavian]

Yeah... I mean I get the point that a video game can't really be a D&D experience but.. so what? Does anyone really expect it to be?

I guess the thing with this game is- is the appeal as a good video game, or as a D&D sim? Because personally I'm just not interested in the latter.

I think Solasta is a way better D&D sim.

As a game, BG3 is probably better.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I think Solasta is a way better D&D sim.

As a game, BG3 is probably better.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll play this when there is downtime between releases.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I mean a computer game cannot be programed with the adaptation of the human mind yet. The game world has to be prebuilt and premade with challenges at various places. So no matter what you are going to have to compromise somewhere.

Yeah, just from what I'm reading ITT the challenges are perhaps a bit too challenging a bit too early.

Eh, I've never really got on with this style of RPG. I want to like them, but it never works out. NWN 1&2 and Solasta are about it, the latter being fully turn based really helped and since it's much smaller and relatively linear it's easier to balance it challenge wise.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Yeah, just from what I'm reading ITT the challenges are perhaps a bit too challenging a bit too early.

I think it depends on the party make-up and general D&D knowledge. The game doesn't do shit to really teach you the rules of D&D going in, so someone who's never played 5E isn't going to understand how skills and stats really interact with the world. Nor understanding class and team balance. So those things can make the game quite hard. I TPK'd a couple of times, but only because I forgot to long rest or something before the encounter, upon reloading save and preparing I've not had trouble with any battles i've faced thus far in my 19 hours played.

But I can see how people would struggle if they don't set up a balanced party or anything.

 

[Ag3ma]

I guess the thing with this game is- is the appeal as a good video game, or as a D&D sim? Because personally I'm just not interested in the latter.

I think if you view it as a video game with an expanded ability to interact with stuff, that might be the best way to look at it.

So for instance imagine the spell to talk with the dead: in many games, there would only be set, quest-relevant points you could use it. In BG3, I assume you can theoretically use it any time on any corpse (I've not tested this, mind). It might not be useful on the vast majority of corpses, but you can do it - obviously, limitations on what can be coded exist. Push chests you can't unlock into lava and watch them burn for shits and giggles. Pick up a chest and move it somewhere more convenient to come back to. Throw acoholic drinks onto or enweb your opponents, then set the alchohol/web on fire. Throw skulls at them, or that chest you were lugging round to put somewhere more convenient.

The other side of the equation is... so what? Only a small fraction of players will ever bother with this content. What does it really achieve? The dream of the D&D sim is that when you have a tabletop game, players think up all sorts of crazy shit, and a game to make that possible would be fun. But has it succeeded? Probably not really, which is why I'd say it's a normal RPG of that style but with an expanded ability to interact with stuff. As a video game, it's well in the upper half of that style... but in my view there are better.

 

[Satinavian]

The other side of the equation is... so what? Only a small fraction of players will ever bother with this content. What does it really achieve?

This stuff comes from DOS 1&2, where such were the mayor gameplay elements. It was already part of the engine, so why not use it ? What is left of it in BG3 is only just a remnant anyway.

 

[sXeth]

I think if you view it as a video game with an expanded ability to interact with stuff, that might be the best way to look at it.

So for instance imagine the spell to talk with the dead: in many games, there would only be set, quest-relevant points you could use it. In BG3, I assume you can theoretically use it any time on any corpse (I've not tested this, mind). It might not be useful on the vast majority of corpses, but you can do it - obviously, limitations on what can be coded exist. Push chests you can't unlock into lava and watch them burn for shits and giggles. Pick up a chest and move it somewhere more convenient to come back to. Throw acoholic drinks onto or enweb your opponents, then set the alchohol/web on fire. Throw skulls at them, or that chest you were lugging round to put somewhere more convenient.

The other side of the equation is... so what? Only a small fraction of players will ever bother with this content. What does it really achieve? The dream of the D&D sim is that when you have a tabletop game, players think up all sorts of crazy shit, and a game to make that possible would be fun. But has it succeeded? Probably not really, which is why I'd say it's a normal RPG of that style but with an expanded ability to interact with stuff. As a video game, it's well in the upper half of that style... but in my view there are better.

Nah theres significant amounts of "this corpse has nothing to say" if you try it on any non-designated important ones.

Anyhow, in virtue of not caring about being spoiled, I found out how its a sequel anyhow. And without spoiling, they might as well have not bothered because the plot involved makes it seem like they just didn't play the previous game the whole way through.

 

[Eacaraxe]

On the other hand, maybe that's unfair: it does give you some reason to take a balanced character with plenty of skills and versatility rather than a min-maxed combat machine.

As long as it's not fucking NWN, where BioWare completely misunderstood how CR works while simultaneously throwing the advanced creature template on half the monsters in the game, forcing PC's to simultaneously be min-maxed combat monsters and skill monkeys, while players have to metagame to keep power levels on the inadvertent curve. The only time I genuinely enjoyed a playthrough of that game, was as a rogue/druid/shifter.

 

[Ag3ma]

As long as it's not fucking NWN, where BioWare completely misunderstood how CR works while simultaneously throwing the advanced creature template on half the monsters in the game, forcing PC's to simultaneously be min-maxed combat monsters and skill monkeys, while players have to metagame to keep power levels on the inadvertent curve. The only time I genuinely enjoyed a playthrough of that game, was as a rogue/druid/shifter.

Ah yes, I've tried to wipe NWN from my memory, but that issue with meeting both skills and combat requirements is familiar.

I thought the main intention was to make NWN as a platform for people to design their own campaigns. The default one they attached to it was junk - genuinely one of the most uninspiring, uninventive, mediocre RPG gaming experiences I've ever had - and consequently I didn't bother with any of the expansions/sequels.