Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Seanchaidh]

Sometimes, bad people do bad things and get away with it, which is bad. But we can recognize what is bad vs. a culture that celebrates it.

There are some examples in this thread, and many more outside of it, of Israelis celebrating massacres and other various 'bad things'.

 

[gorfias]

They will be a small, poor, unwelcome minority in each of those countries.

Quite similar to Haititians going to the US. Or would you say "of course they are welcome, they are both Christians countries so the newcomers are part of the majority".

What is this nonsense ? By that logic the statement "Hamas did not enough to stop Israel with 10/7, it should have killed 10s or 100s of thousands Israelis instead" would be true.

Being more brutal and murderous does not actually ever lead to a pupulance giving up hatred and violence unless you go to extinction levels.

Which, just to be sure, is not OK. The world is supposed to stop a genocide. That is right there in the genocide convention. If Israel thinks genocide is the only option, then Israel should be destroyed by international intervention, the country occupied and a less genocidal caretaker regime installed to start a transition to a nation where jews and others can equally live in peace.
But that obviously won't happen.

Below:

Here you are saying that Israel's killing of Palestinian's are proportional, and don't include deliberately targeted civilians. But previously:

Here, you seem to have accepted that Israel is killing Palestinian civilians, and in disproportionate numbers to their own dead. Which is obviously true, and something you are condoning.

I support Israel forces giving advance notice to the Hamastinians that they'll be bombing a given area to the ground, giving them time to abandon the area as they inch back and widen the space between Gaza and Israel, avoiding unnecessary civilian deaths. I'm sure we did nothing of the kind to Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 100s of thousands died in a flash... but millions were saved from what would have happened if the allies conventionally invaded the island of Japan.

This is hardly genocide but I can agree it is ethnic cleansing. In this case, I don't see an alternative that will stop future events such as what happened to the Israeli athletes or 10/7 which must never happen to Israeli ever again. They've experienced enough attempted genocide for any one people to endure over the millennia.

I am interested in learning more about why some are writing that they, to my knowledge, Arab, Arabic speaking Muslims would be seen as unwelcome minorities in Arab, Arabic speaking, sometimes oil wealthy beyond US per capita dreams, Muslim near universal majority nations. Sounds like and Emo Philips joke I hope isn't true (he pretends he is one American meeting and speaking to another and they both have everything in common to the tiniest detail until one asks, "Southern or Northern" and the other says, "Northern" to which the 1st yells, "HEATHEN!")

 

[Silvanus]

I'm OK with ethnic cleansing if, on balance, it is justified and the best and most humane thing for a given situation.

Which it never is. Alternative solutions are right there that don't require racist displacement and slaughter.

Things cannot go on as they are, with Israel trying to do the "proportional" thing, followed by cease fire which their enemies define as, "reload" only to be followed by other outrageous crimes against humanity.

This is, of course, complete bollocks as a description of the current situation. Israel is not seeking proportionality, and has killed 20 times as many people. And while Hamas does indeed abuse and break ceasefires, so does Israel, at about the same rate.

At a minimum, I can agree that were Israel to willfully target civilians to kill, they'd be in the wrong in that instance.

They are doing that. They're bombing hospitals, maternity wards, and homes. We have direct videos of IDF soldiers gunning unarmed people down in the street. And you earlier excused and justified this.

 

[Silvanus]

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This was a terrorist bombing which killed almost 100 innocent people. The blame of which, apparently, falls on the British, and not the militant nationalist terrorists that planted the bomb.
View attachment 10501

Also, said plaque was placed on the 60th anniversary at an event attended by none other than current PM Netanyahu (keep in mind also that this is the revised version).

To add to this-- let's also remember that the terrorist Menachem Begin, who organised this, later became Prime Minister in the '70s.

 

[gorfias]

Which it never is. Alternative solutions are right there that don't require racist displacement and slaughter.



This is, of course, complete bollocks as a description of the current situation. Israel is not seeking proportionality, and has killed 20 times as many people. And while Hamas does indeed abuse and break ceasefires, so does Israel, at about the same rate.



They are doing that. They're bombing hospitals, maternity wards, and homes. We have direct videos of IDF soldiers gunning unarmed people down in the street. And you earlier excused and justified this.

Please post me writing that it is OK for the IDF to gun down unarmed civilians. You do know that terrorists regularly use human shields in hospitals and schools, right?
Just one Example of many:

Use of human shields by Hamas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Satinavian]

You do know that terrorists regularly use human shields in hospitals and schools, right?

According to Israel and its allies. The only somewhat independent investigation could not confirm it.

But even if that were true (which might be), the IDF has a habit of killing unarmed civillians without any Hamas target nearby. So often in fact that it can't be anything other than deliberately killing civillians instead of them just being collateral damage.

 

[gorfias]

According to Israel and its allies. The only somewhat independent investigation could not confirm it.

But even if that were true (which might be), the IDF has a habit of killing unarmed civillians without any Hamas target nearby. So often in fact that it can't be anything other than deliberately killing civillians instead of them just being collateral damage.

The UN Secretary General is an ally?
But I'll stand by the idea that they must, unlike the US vs. Japan, give them notice they are about to erase a given area before doing so.

 

[Silvanus]

Please post me writing that it is OK for the IDF to gun down unarmed civilians.

In this post, you said that history provides "a lot of justification" for the killing of civilians.

You do know that terrorists regularly use human shields in hospitals and schools, right?

That's likely, though how widespread it is is unknown and poorly documented. What we do know is that the IDF routinely kills civilians who aren't being used as human shields. We literally have them on video, repeatedly.

 

[gorfias]

In this post, you said that history provides "a lot of justification" for the killing of civilians.



That's likely, though how widespread it is is unknown and poorly documented. What we do know is that the IDF routinely kills civilians who aren't being used as human shields. We literally have them on video, repeatedly.

Your link is hardly me writing that what you next report to have videos (IDF pointing their guns at unarmed civilians and intentionally targeting and shooting them: they are not collateral damage) of and if it did, given some thoughts I'm having after Thaluikhain question, I largely retract it. I have heard of the IDF shooting unarmed people that are willfully cutting border fences in order to "invade" Israeli borders. I don't think I can condemn that.

You wrote of alternatives to ethnic cleansing of the area. Only one I can recall reading from anyone is that Israel, with its nukes, should surrender to people throwing rocks at them and accept whatever a new, Muslim majority government deigns them worthy of. Not acceptable and a great way to get shoved into an oven.

Other?

 

[Silvanus]

You wrote of alternatives to ethnic cleansing of the area. Only one I can recall reading from anyone is that Israel, with its nukes, should surrender to people throwing rocks at them and accept whatever a new, Muslim majority government deigns them worthy of. Not acceptable and a great way to get shoved into an oven.

Other?

I already gave an option that's readily available to avoid the majority of deaths. Most deaths in the area, by a very wide margin, are on the Palestinian side, through deprivation or violence from the IDF. So the option remains for Israel to simply stop illegally expanding, displacing, and killing them. As well as to allow them to control their own water and resources rather than siphoning them off. Stop preventing them from trading or running their own businesses. Stop doing these things, and most deaths are prevented. This doesn't even involve "surrender" or giving up the existence of the state.

 

[Gyrobot]

I already gave an option that's readily available to avoid the majority of deaths. Most deaths in the area, by a very wide margin, are on the Palestinian side, through deprivation or violence from the IDF. So the option remains for Israel to simply stop illegally expanding, displacing, and killing them. As well as to allow them to control their own water and resources rather than siphoning them off. Stop preventing them from trading or running their own businesses. Stop doing these things, and most deaths are prevented. This doesn't even involve "surrender" or giving up the existence of the state.

The cruelty is pmthe point. Israel won't rest until they killed every last Palestinian in the strip and may not even stop there.

 

[soreeyes]

Below:



I support Israel forces giving advance notice to the Hamastinians that they'll be bombing a given area to the ground, giving them time to abandon the area as they inch back and widen the space between Gaza and Israel, avoiding unnecessary civilian deaths. I'm sure we did nothing of the kind to Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 100s of thousands died in a flash... but millions were saved from what would have happened if the allies conventionally invaded the island of Japan.

This is hardly genocide but I can agree it is ethnic cleansing. In this case, I don't see an alternative that will stop future events such as what happened to the Israeli athletes or 10/7 which must never happen to Israeli ever again. They've experienced enough attempted genocide for any one people to endure over the millennia.

I am interested in learning more about why some are writing that they, to my knowledge, Arab, Arabic speaking Muslims would be seen as unwelcome minorities in Arab, Arabic speaking, sometimes oil wealthy beyond US per capita dreams, Muslim near universal majority nations. Sounds like and Emo Philips joke I hope isn't true (he pretends he is one American meeting and speaking to another and they both have everything in common to the tiniest detail until one asks, "Southern or Northern" and the other says, "Northern" to which the 1st yells, "HEATHEN!")

your invocation of the nuclear bombings of japan reveal just how facile and cruel your faux pragmatism is.
Its banal comfortable cruelty backed retroactively with logic from a place of immense security

Israel killed vast quantities of its own civilians on 10/7 and for 75 years has been ethnically cleansing the indigenous Palestinians and their land, which they reveal themselves to be abhorrent caretakers and outright active destroyers o, the way no indigenous people would be.


Its monstrous
you are monster

Literally tabulating ethnic cleansing like its viable solution like a game of risk

I wish i had more eloquent things to say but youre just a monster
A genocidal cretin and you deserve as much mercy as you show

 

[gorfias]

your invocation of the nuclear bombings of japan reveal just how facile and cruel your faux pragmatism is.
Its banal comfortable cruelty backed retroactively with logic from a place of immense security

Israel killed vast quantities of its own civilians on 10/7 and for 75 years has been ethnically cleansing the indigenous Palestinians and their land, which they reveal themselves to be abhorrent caretakers and outright active destroyers o, the way no indigenous people would be.


Its monstrous
you are monster

Literally tabulating ethnic cleansing like its viable solution like a game of risk

I wish i had more eloquent things to say but youre just a monster
A genocidal cretin and you deserve as much mercy as you show

So, you feel if you can fling enough sophistries at people, it is OK to start shoving Jews in ovens? That may sound unfair. So is your accusation that trying to keep those that have been, by historical fact, trying to genocide Jews for generations, from doing so now, is to be a genocidal cretin.

Never again.

 

[Satinavian]

The only one trying to justify ethnic cleansing and genocide here is you.

I actually have to agree with soreeyes. You are a monster.

Never again.

Exactly.
That is why Israel needs to be stopped.

And that is why advocating for ethnic cleansing etc. is in itself a moral transgression. Your talk about the Palestinians exactly like the Nazis talked about the jews.

They should be settled elsewhere far away. Obviously asset stripped. To protect the actual citizens from ever nefarious thing they might do. Coesistence not possible. All their fault. And if there is no place to settle them, ... oh well.


That quote was what made me change my tact. It reminded me that we have to do something to make sure "it never happens again".

 

[gorfias]

The only one trying to justify ethnic cleansing and genocide here is you.

I actually have to agree with soreeyes. You are a monster.

1) We've gone over this. Repatriating members of one ethnic group (largely Egyptian and Jordanian) to other areas in which their ethnicity makes up a large majority is not genocide. I acknowledge that it could be called ethnic cleansing but while there are some 40+ nations for which they are to go, this simply may be the best of bad options to take. @Silvanus at least tries to offer alternatives I find may be wanting.
2) Under normal demographics, there should be about 400 million Jews. There are about 15. We've seen real genocide, not the hyperbole you and @soreeyes cry bully about.
3) There is one Jewish state on Earth. One. And that ethnicity, through multiple military incursions, has been trying to wipe them out since inception. Those Jews have a right to fight to survive. To live in freedom and self determination whether the haters like it or not. Sorry if that pukes you out but there it is.

If you cannot make your points without slinging cry bully taunts, I really suggest you stop posting.

EDIT: You appear to have added...

And that is why advocating for ethnic cleansing etc is in itself a moral transgression. Your talk about the Palestinians exactly like the Nazis talked about the jews.

They should be settled elsewhere far away. Obviously asset stripped. To protect the actual citizens from ever nefarious thing they might do. Coesistence not possible. All their fault. And if there is no place to settle them, ... oh well.


That quote was what made me change my tact. It reminded me that we have to do something to make sure "it never happens again".

Sadly, not everything is black and white. Sometimes you only have shades of right and wrong. I agree with you that ethnic cleansing is bad. What if that is the least bad thing there is among bad options? I THINK that is where we are, whether I like it or not.

ITMT: The Nazis initially DID just want Jews to leave. If only that were the end of it. Ultimately they decided they did NOT want the Jews to leave as if they did, it made them harder to track down and genocide.


@2:50 ish: The head of Hezbollah says he wants Jews to gather in Israel to make it easier to genocide them. This isn't hyperbole. 15 rather than 400 million. We actually do have a reason to fear. We're not just making this stuff up.

 

[Silvanus]

2) Under normal demographics, there should be about 400 million Jews.

What on earth is this based on? "Normal demographics"?

3) There is one Jewish state on Earth. One.

Hundreds of ethnic and religious groups worldwide have no dedicated state at all. They exist within other, multi-ethnic states.

If states operate policies that treat certain groups preferentially based on their race or religion, that's unequivocal racism-- we recognised this in South Africa and the former European colonial states, after many centuries of abuse and exploitation. Their successors are secular states that aim for equal legal protections regardless of ethnicity or religion. Yet Likud continues to argue that the old racial apartheid system must continue in their special case.

 

[Satinavian]

1) We've gone over this. Repatriating members of one ethnic group (largely Egyptian and Jordanian) to other areas in which their ethnicity makes up a large majority is not genocide. I acknowledge that it could be called ethnic cleansing but while there are some 40+ nations for which they are to go, this simply may be the best of bad options to take. @Silvanus at least tries to offer alternatives I find may be wanting.

They are neither Egyptian nor Jordanian. It is not repatriation. There are certainly not 40+ nation of even remotely similar culture, nor are there 40+ nations that would like to take them. Religion is not all that important for many people and for those who care, all the small differences are important as well.

2) Under normal demographics, there should be about 400 million Jews. There are about 15. We've seen real genocide, not the hyperbole you and @soreeyes cry bully about.

Yes, jews have been on the receiving end of genocide. Which is utterly irrelevant here. Why would that matter ? Other people did it to jews in the past, so Israel (a country, not "the jews") can do it now ? Nonsense.

3) There is one Jewish state on Earth. One. And that ethnicity, through multiple military incursions, has been trying to wipe them out since inception. Those Jews have a right to fight to survive. To live in freedom and self determination whether the haters like it or not. Sorry if that pukes you out but there it is.

The number of jewish states is utterly irrelevant for the moral evaluation of Israel. Why would that matter ?

And if Israel would in want to live freedom and selfdetermination it would strengthen the internationally recognized borders, not weakening them. And it would try to help the Palestinians to get a proper state, not hinder them.

Selfdetermination ends at your borders.

 

[gorfias]

What on earth is this based on? "Normal demographics"?
Hundreds of ethnic and religious groups worldwide have no dedicated state at all. They exist within other, multi-ethnic states.
If states operate policies that treat certain groups preferentially based on their race or religion, that's unequivocal racism-- we recognised this in South Africa and the former European colonial states, after many centuries of abuse and exploitation. Their successors are secular states that aim for equal legal protections regardless of ethnicity or religion. Yet Likud continues to argue that the old racial apartheid system must continue in their special case.

They are neither Egyptian nor Jordanian. It is not repatriation. There are certainly not 40+ nation of even remotely similar culture, nor are there 40+ nations that would like to take them. Religion is not all that important for many people and for those who care, all the small differences are important as well.
Yes, jews have been on the receiving end of genocide. Which is utterly irrelevant here. Why would that matter ? Other people did it to jews in the past, so Israel (a country, not "the jews") can do it now ? Nonsense.

The number of jewish states is utterly irrelevant for the moral evaluation of Israel. Why would that matter ?

And if Israel would in want to live freedom and selfdetermination it would strengthen the internationally recognized borders, not weakening them. And it would try to help the Palestinians to get a proper state, not hinder them.

Selfdetermination ends at your borders.

My point regarding how many Jews there should be vs. what there is is that Jews really have been subject to others trying to genocide us for millennia. Do we agree on that much?

EDIT: https://www.haaretz.com/2009-04-19/...olocaust/0000017f-e76e-dea7-adff-f7ffe8900000 " Researcher finds before Holocaust, rate was 8 Jews per thousand people in the world; today it is 2 per thousand. " This is just regarding Nazis, let alone other genocides that have haunted Jews over the years.

This makes us somewhat different than the other dozens of stateless peoples out there. (Kurds? I"m sure they've had their troubles over the years.) It is why we discuss this here. One recommendation is that Jews, with their nukes, surrender to people throwing rocks at them as those throwing the rocks certainly would not be a grave danger to them, which is ridiculous.

Would the land ultimately just be split up between Jordan and Egypt? I don't think so as relations with those two nations appear to be normalizing. But were I an Israeli Jew? I would still fear living there while those two took back over.

 

[Satinavian]

@2:50 ish: The head of Hezbollah says he wants Jews to gather in Israel to make it easier to genocide them.

Sure and that is also monstrous. And ? Hezbollah is not killing hundreds of people per day nor has it killed one and a half percent of the Israeli population. As long as they only do saber rattling and low intensity fire exchange with the IDF, no genocide needs to be stopped here.

My point regarding how many Jews there should be vs. what there is is that Jews really have been subject to others trying to genocide us for millennia. Do we agree on that much?

Sure.

This makes us somewhat different than the other dozens of stateless peoples out there.

Well, no. Thousand of ethnicies or religions were killed over the millenia all over the world, most extinct now. That does not make Jews special in any way.

One recommendation is that Jews, with their nukes, surrender to people throwing rocks at them as those throwing the rocks certainly would not be a grave danger to them, which is ridiculous.

Well, that is obviously nonsense. Israel has as much right to exist as nation as Palestine. Two state solution !

If you can normalize relations with Jordan and Egypt, you could as well with a proper Palestine state.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]