Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[hanselthecaretaker2]

So, you feel if you can fling enough sophistries at people, it is OK to start shoving Jews in ovens? That may sound unfair. So is your accusation that trying to keep those that have been, by historical fact, trying to genocide Jews for generations, from doing so now, is to be a genocidal cretin.

Never again.

When in the last 75 years have Palestinians gotten anywhere near a “genocide” of the Jews in this region or elsewhere? It’s Israel who’ve been the dominant force for the better part of a century now. They’ve pulled all the strings with the help of billions of dollars of U.S. financial aid every year. Palestinians have lived like paupers because of it. Their choice is either surrendering what they’ve called “home” for nearly a thousand years or fighting for it with what little they have. Sure, the former would probably be easier, but they’ve both clearly demonstrated the path of unending conflict and the resulting shitshow that follows is somehow preferable, so oh well I guess. I’m aware that Palestinian leadership can’t cry complete innocence with their general lack of women’s rights and treatment of marginalized groups, but when the blameless women and kids are dealing with this on top of everything, it’s only adding insult to injury.

Also, people criticizing Jews (Zionists specifically) for razing their enemy’s home out of existence ≠ wanting them thrown into ovens. It simply means if they don’t want to look like hypocrites then they should probably avoid going down a path that would be considered a glaring beacon of inhumanity when anyone else does it.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

My point regarding how many Jews there should be vs. what there is is that Jews really have been subject to others trying to genocide us for millennia. Do we agree on that much?

This does not give Israel the right to genocide others. At all. Thinking otherwise is monstrous, and if you truly believe that then there is no conversation to be had with you.

 

[Thaluikhain]

In this case, I don't see an alternative that will stop future events such as what happened to the Israeli athletes or 10/7 which must never happen to Israeli ever again.

Why is killing Palestinian civilians acceptable, when killing Israeli civilians is not? Why is it not that killing civilians is unacceptable, no matter who they are?

 

[gorfias]

When in the last 75 years have Palestinians gotten anywhere near a “genocide” of the Jews in this region or elsewhere? It’s Israel who’ve been the dominant force for the better part of a century now. They’ve pulled all the strings with the help of billions of dollars of U.S. financial aid every year. Palestinians have lived like paupers because of it. Their choice is either surrendering what they’ve called “home” for nearly a thousand years or fighting for it with what little they have. Sure, the former would probably be easier, but they’ve both clearly demonstrated the path of unending conflict and the resulting shitshow that follows is somehow preferable, so oh well I guess. I’m aware that Palestinian leadership can’t cry complete innocence with their general lack of women’s rights and treatment of marginalized groups, but when the blameless women and kids are dealing with this on top of everything, it’s only adding insult to injury.

Also, people criticizing Jews (Zionists specifically) for razing their enemy’s home out of existence ≠ wanting them thrown into ovens. It simply means if they don’t want to look like hypocrites then they should probably avoid going down a path that would be considered a glaring beacon of inhumanity when anyone else does it.

This does not give Israel the right to genocide others. At all. Thinking otherwise is monstrous, and if you truly believe that then there is no conversation to be had with you.

Why is killing Palestinian civilians acceptable, when killing Israeli civilians is not? Why is it not that killing civilians is unacceptable, no matter who they are?

When I feel like we're arguing in circles I pretty much figure it's time to move on, which I'll do now.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Israel has as much right to exist as nation as Palestine. Two state solution !

Well, no. At least not where it is. Or given what it has done. The Israeli state does not have as much right to exist. Substantially less. That right is eroded by being everywhere that it exists a colonial occupier founded on an ethnic cleansing that involved many massacres and then never redressing those wrongs, instead continuing and compounding them. If Israel was a moon base or Mars colony (or the Jewish Autonomous Oblast of the Soviet Union, perhaps), then sure, but it exists on other people's land, people who Israel has been denying the right of return ever since the first time they violently expelled them because they want liebensraum for their international cadre of settlers.

 

[Thaluikhain]

but it exists on other people's land, people who Israel has been denying the right of return ever since the first time they violently expelled them because they want liebensraum for their international cadre of settlers.

Israel is hardly alone in that, though. Personally, I feel that much of the land they've stolen has been held long enough that Israel can claim it as their own...otherwise you'd have to displace Israelis who've been born since that happened from their homes. I don't know where you'd draw the line, though.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Israel is hardly alone in that, though. Personally, I feel that much of the land they've stolen has been held long enough that Israel can claim it as their own...otherwise you'd have to displace Israelis who've been born since that happened from their homes. I don't know where you'd draw the line, though.

they can still live in that country, just without the regime of Jewish Supremacy or (where applicable) stolen house.

 

[Thaluikhain]

they can still live in that country, just without the regime of Jewish Supremacy or (where applicable) stolen house.

Ah, you mean having an Israeli state is ok, but not this particular one because *gestures*? Fair enough.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Ah, you mean having an Israeli state is ok, but not this particular one because *gestures*? Fair enough.

I'd imagine it'd be called Palestine.

edit: (assuming it's in the same place)

 

[tstorm823]

Well, no. At least not where it is. Or given what it has done. The Israeli state does not have as much right to exist. Substantially less. That right is eroded by being everywhere that it exists a colonial occupier founded on an ethnic cleansing that involved many massacres and then never redressing those wrongs, instead continuing and compounding them. If Israel was a moon base or Mars colony (or the Jewish Autonomous Oblast of the Soviet Union, perhaps), then sure, but it exists on other people's land, people who Israel has been denying the right of return ever since the first time they violently expelled them because they want liebensraum for their international cadre of settlers.

You don't believe in ownership of land in any other context.

 

[Satinavian]

2) Under normal demographics, there should be about 400 million Jews.

That is roughly the total population of South America. That is obviously nonsense.

Under any reasonable definition of "normal demographics", the growth of the population of some minor ancient middle Eastern kingdom should roughly arrive at the typical population of a minor modern middle Eastern nation, not more. Certainly not at levels of whole continents.

" Researcher finds before Holocaust, rate was 8 Jews per thousand people in the world; today it is 2 per thousand.

Before the Holocaust, one quarter of the world population lived in Europe, now it is one thenth. While the holocaust obviously did have a huge impact on the number of jews, much of the decline has other reasons.

 

[gorfias]

That is roughly the total population of South America. That is obviously nonsense.

Under any reasonable definition of "normal demographics", the growth of the population of some minor ancient middle Eastern kingdom should roughly arrive at the typical population of a minor modern middle Eastern nation, not more. Certainly not at levels of whole continents.

Before the Holocaust, one quarter of the world population lived in Europe, now it is one thenth. While the holocaust obviously did have a huge impact on the number of jews, much of the decline has other reasons.

Nothing to see here folks.

Timeline of antisemitism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Satinavian]

Nothing to see here folks.

At least nothing that pushes your ridiculous 400 million number.

 

[soreeyes]

why still entertain gorfias?

 

[Seanchaidh]

You don't believe in ownership of land in any other context.

though there are easy and commonsense ways to object to theft of land without believing in ownership of land-- a political philosophical discussion for another time-- you are quite predictably wrong again. both land as personal property and collective ownership of land are relevant to me in quite a lot of contexts! not to say that these things must always be inviolate or immune to review, but it's also safe to say that the values I prioritize over the sanctity of title deed are not in any respect the values that Israel have been pursuing with their thievery. or to put it another way, Israel is not doing an egalitarian land reform by burning down a family's olive orchard, throwing them from their house at gunpoint and then giving that house to some knob from Pennsylvania because he's been judged by the authorities to be Jewish enough.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Do they hear themselves? Because their rhetoric sounds eerily similar to Hitler in his speeches about the Jewish “plague”. I suppose the people that walked out will now be branded antisemites.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

YT version with a bit more context, however futile -

 

[Seanchaidh]

 

[tstorm823]

you are quite predictably wrong again

You didn't dispute what I said.