Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Silvanus

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He does not post truths, Silvanus. That isn't his M.O. If the truth helps his case, he will always pick whatever the next step beyond the truth is. If the truth hurts his case, he will ignore it entirely. He does this all on purpose, he thinks it's fun.
You know that I've checked for corroboration for several of the claims made. Some have been misleading or flawed and I've pointed them out. Others have been corroborated and substantially true.

Irrational is taking strong positions on an issue you know is severely covered in mud, and not acknowledging the person doing all the mud flinging.
You're involved in the obfuscation yourself. Acting as if because disinformation exists, therefore all reports-- even those with extensive substantiation from independent reporters, survivor testimony, video evidence, and UN/observer investigation-- can be ignored or discredited? That's not scepticism, it's dishonest muddying.
 

tstorm823

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You're involved in the obfuscation yourself. Acting as if because disinformation exists, therefore all reports-- even those with extensive substantiation from independent reporters, survivor testimony, video evidence, and UN/observer investigation-- can be ignored or discredited? That's not scepticism, it's dishonest muddying.
Ignoring or discrediting the nonsense that gets spammed here is not the same as ignoring and discrediting everything in the whole world. This thread is toxic.
 

Silvanus

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Ignoring or discrediting the nonsense that gets spammed here is not the same as ignoring and discrediting everything in the whole world.
You discredited genuine corroborated reports alongside the nonsense when you said it was "all bullcrap". That was my point.

This thread is toxic.
Yes, and I'm sure personal sniping will improve that no end. If you want to improve the health of the discussion-- which has indeed gotten pretty toxic-- then look for corroboration (or otherwise) for reports as they come up. Don't kneejerk discredit everything regardless of substance, hurl insults, and then act like everyone else is at fault for turning this into a mire.
 

Silvanus

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In the last hour or so, Judge Joan Donoghue at The Hague has issued several orders to Israel. The actual decision of whether genocide has taken place may not be settled for years, but the court has the power to issue preliminary, legally binding orders in the interim.

These include that Israel must take all actions possible to prevent actions that fall under the genocide convention; must punish incitement to genocide; must urgently improve the humanitarian situation. They did not include an order for a ceasefire. Nonetheless this is seen as a major diplomatic victory for South Africa.

 

Chimpzy

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In the last hour or so, Judge Joan Donoghue at The Hague has issued several orders to Israel. The actual decision of whether genocide has taken place may not be settled for years, but the court has the power to issue preliminary, legally binding orders in the interim.

These include that Israel must take all actions possible to prevent actions that fall under the genocide convention; must punish incitement to genocide; must urgently improve the humanitarian situation. They did not include an order for a ceasefire. Nonetheless this is seen as a major diplomatic victory for South Africa.

I'm sure the Israeli authorities are shivering in their מגפיים
 

Thaluikhain

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So, they aren't demanding a ceasefire, they are saying Israel is committing genocide, but they are saying that Israel does have to abide by the rules of not committing genocide.

As my old mother would say, instead of wagging on finger at Israel for being naughty, they are wagging two fingers now.
 

Chimpzy

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If I remember correctly, this is what Trump threatened to do while he was in office 🤔
Some context to that tweet. Also, official statements from the UNRWA and the US State Department
 

Thaluikhain

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Oh, actually, I'd not be surprised if it turned out that they'd just been killed by the IDF at the time, and so they have to claim they were involved.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Is this an explicit endorsement of the targeting of civilians?

If not, I'd really like to know how else to read it.
What is your opinion on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? What is your opinion on Nat Turner? It is an endorsement of resistance.
 
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Silvanus

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What is your opinion on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising? What is your opinion on Nat Turner? It is an endorsement of resistance.
The Warsaw Ghetto uprising was an act of resistance by the victims themselves, which killed military police and SS who were involved in their extermination. Nat Turner's group primarily killed slave-holders, though they also killed children.

These are your comparisons for a targeted massacre of ~770 civilians, led not by the oppressed population at large but by the group that denies them the right to vote?
 

Seanchaidh

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The Warsaw Ghetto uprising was an act of resistance by the victims themselves, which killed military police and SS who were involved in their extermination. Nat Turner's group primarily killed slave-holders, though they also killed children.

These are your comparisons for a targeted massacre of ~770 civilians, led not by the oppressed population at large but by the group that denies them the right to vote?
wow

I expected "some of the guys who escaped the regularly brutalized concentration camp weren't equanimous professional soldiers, so the whole operation must be bad", but instead I got a whitewashing of the historical realities of two other resistance actions followed by a press release from the IDF.

The parts of the Qassam brigades that participated in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood were composed of people who had been orphaned by Israeli violence. They are the victims themselves! Other random people joined them when they breached the wall-- likely accounting for much of the undisciplined behavior that is recounted, though it is bizarre to expect flawless professionalism from people as brutalized as Gazans even among their soldiery-- and a significant number of that civilian death toll (hard to say exactly how much) came from confused or careless Israeli reaction. In any case, Israel had such a bloody nose coming after what it has perpetrated.
 

Silvanus

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I expected "some of the guys who escaped the regularly brutalized concentration camp weren't equanimous professional soldiers, so the whole operation must be bad", but instead I got a whitewashing of the historical realities of two other resistance actions followed by a press release from the IDF.
The fact that those uprisings primarily fought the agents directly responsible for their oppression is not "whitewashing". It's just true. And if you're denying that's what they did, or you're arguing that's morally identical to the targeted killing of uninvolved civilians, you're the one posting slanderous denigration of resistance movements.

[...] the undisciplined behavior that is recounted, though it is bizarre to expect flawless professionalism [...]
Ah, the excuse for war crimes since time immemorial: high pressure situation, can't be helped! We hear the same from the IDF.
 
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Seanchaidh

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The fact that those uprisings primarily fought the agents directly responsible for their oppression is not "whitewashing". It's just true.
You have overstated the extent to which that is the case. Nat Turner's rebellion killed many women and children. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising targeted, among other people, Jewish collaborators and fake opposition groups, not just members of the SS or police battalions. But you've also understated the extent to which Hamas targeted combatants and overstated its responsibility for civilian deaths. Which is why you read like an IDF press release.

And if you're denying that's what they did, or you're arguing that's morally identical to the targeted killing of uninvolved civilians, you're the one posting slanderous denigration of resistance movements.
"Slanderous denigration of resistance movements" from the past-- if it should happen-- is less of a problem than whitewashing, because whitewashing results in harmful and false comparisons to the resistance movements of NOW who are relevant NOW and who can succeed or fail NOW and are not just an academic historical question NOW.

Ah, the excuse for war crimes since time immemorial: high pressure situation, can't be helped! We hear the same from the IDF.
It is asinine to think Hamas is responsible for the actions of random people who take the opportunity to escape their concentration camp. And yes, it is fucking bizarre to expect perfection from people who have been routinely brutalized. It's not "high pressure situation"-- words which you introduced yourself-- as if it's just a momentary circumstance like some cop "fearing for his life" because someone pointed a twinky at him. it's why the hell are you expecting perfect victims among those who have been subject to massacres and ethnic cleansing, herded together into a concentration camp with drinking water that is unfit for human consumption for their entire lives and oh yeah a lot of their friends and family were probably murdered by a bomb dropped from an F-16 or shot in the leg (or worse) by a bored Israeli sniper. The IDF is a professional military organization in the most powerful country in the middle east backed by the most powerful country on earth, why would you not have higher expectations of its ability to set a consistent standard of behavior? Now, sure, that standard has been repugnant as we can see from the appalling TikToks that they post, but they have plentiful resources and are not subject to the constant horror that they themselves inflict on Palestinians. To act as if they have a similar excuse as if they are just as often brutalized in just as severe and various ways is, again, bizarre. It is also beneath contempt.
 

Silvanus

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You have overstated the extent to which that is the case. Nat Turner's rebellion killed many women and children. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising targeted, among other people, Jewish collaborators and fake opposition groups, not just members of the SS or police battalions. But you've also understated the extent to which Hamas targeted combatants and overstated its responsibility for civilian deaths. Which is why you read like an IDF press release.
Tell me. How exactly did I overstate their responsibility? I didn't deny they targeted combatants as well. I didn't deny that IDF 'friendly fire' racked up the civilian body count. I said they primarily targeted civilians-- who were the majority of mortalities by a wide margin, something *nobody outside of a press release from the perpetrator seriously denies.

And in that regard, it is incomparable to the other historic uprisings.

Perhaps I got the ~760 number wrong; that was from memory. But then, this is Hamas we're talking about, who have never considered civilians-- Israeli or Palestinian-- worth protecting. If the number was lower, it won't have been for lack of will.

"Slanderous denigration of resistance movements" from the past-- if it should happen-- is less of a problem than whitewashing, because whitewashing results in harmful and false comparisons to the resistance movements of NOW who are relevant NOW and who can succeed or fail NOW and are not just an academic historical question NOW.
The point of distinction I made-- that one primarily targeted agents directly responsible for oppression, and the other didn't-- remains not a "harmful and false comparison" but a true one. You can overlook that fact or deem it irrelevant if you like, but pure denial isn't tenable.

It is asinine to think Hamas is responsible for the actions of random people who take the opportunity to escape their concentration camp.
You're really going to pretend October 7th was a totally organic or spontaneous movement, rather than a planned operation by Hamas and several other organisations. Incredible.

It is also beneath contempt.
What's beneath contempt is this faux outrage. Following a post of emotional appeals to the suffering of an oppressed population, exploited to justify the actions of a military organisation that is deeply involved in the brutalisation of that same population while shamelessly pretending to act on their behalf.

They were funded and established by Israel. They expelled their coalition partners, socialists and secularists, by force in a power seizure. They destroyed the fledgling attempt at democracy. Surprise: the theocratic far-right are complicit in the oppression, not the saviours of the downtrodden.
 
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