Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth Full Review (spoilers)

Silvanus

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I'd say that petty bitches whining about the "alternate reality" aspect of the game are a minority.

Especially the ones as petty as to whine about something that only makes up a minor percentage of the game. For 99% the game is basically the same as the original.
A minor percentage of the games' playtime, but with a drastic impact on the plot. This is a bit like saying the would-you-kindly revelation isn't an important part to praise in the story of Bioshock because it only takes a couple of minutes. Yeah-- but it recontextualises everything, and changes the emphasis of the narrative.

I loved the story of FF7. I think it's weaker for shifting into a story about defying fate and multiverse stuff, none of which was present in the original, but now takes centre stage during the denouements and redefines the antagonist's motivations. I don't think that's petty-- it's not as if I'm begrudging your enjoyment. It just ain't what I wanted from a remake, because it's... Well, not a remake.
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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I myself have been making fun of the whole remake of a sequel of a midquel whatever b.s. of FF7:rebirth. But the reason I am kind of dismissive of the idea that this is turning people off is that so much of media entertainment is that kind of crap. How many batmen do we have at this point? People still watch Star Wars and Star Trek and are supposed to keep track of which century each separate TV show or movies or game takes place in? *waves arms around at..." Marvel!

But, I dunno, maybe that's a factor? We just guessin'.
 
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A minor percentage of the games' playtime, but with a drastic impact on the plot. This is a bit like saying the would-you-kindly revelation isn't an important part to praise in the story of Bioshock because it only takes a couple of minutes. Yeah-- but it recontextualises everything, and changes the emphasis of the narrative.

I loved the story of FF7. I think it's weaker for shifting into a story about defying fate and multiverse stuff, none of which was present in the original, but now takes centre stage during the denouements and redefines the antagonist's motivations. I don't think that's petty-- it's not as if I'm begrudging your enjoyment. It just ain't what I wanted from a remake, because it's... Well, not a remake.
Careful, you’re going to rile Critical up again, and there goes another couple pages of how you’re wrong!
 

NerfedFalcon

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I loved the story of FF7. I think it's weaker for shifting into a story about defying fate and multiverse stuff, none of which was present in the original, but now takes centre stage during the denouements and redefines the antagonist's motivations. I don't think that's petty-- it's not as if I'm begrudging your enjoyment. It just ain't what I wanted from a remake, because it's... Well, not a remake.
Speaking as somebody who's only played the first Remake, and not Rebirth yet: if it was too much the same as the original, I'd be willing to put money down that in the universe where it was closer to the original text, a lot of the same folks complaining about how it's unfaithful here would complain about it being pointless there. Not to throw any shade on you as an individual, or to imply that you actually don't want something more like the original, of course. I'm just saying that a remake also needs to change things, and not just recreate the original shot for shot with better technology and different actors. Times change and so do audiences; expecting media to stay the exact same forever, other than the FF7 PS1 disc you presumably still own, isn't something I can get behind.
 
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BrawlMan

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Times change and so do audiences; expecting media to stay the exact same forever, other than the FF7 PS1 disc you presumably still own, isn't something I can get behind.
Exactly why I enjoy the Resident Evil remakes so much. The people who wanted the exact same RE4 original shot for shot, and line for line, to need to screw off. They would have complained about it being too similar to the original, if Capcom went in that direction. Capcom knows this, and is why they're always change it up with each remake in some form or fashion.
 

Silvanus

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Speaking as somebody who's only played the first Remake, and not Rebirth yet: if it was too much the same as the original, I'd be willing to put money down that in the universe where it was closer to the original text, a lot of the same folks complaining about how it's unfaithful here would complain about it being pointless there.
Not to throw any shade on you as an individual, or to imply that you actually don't want something more like the original, of course. I'm just saying that a remake also needs to change things, and not just recreate the original shot for shot with better technology and different actors. Times change and so do audiences; expecting media to stay the exact same forever, other than the FF7 PS1 disc you presumably still own, isn't something I can get behind.
I'm not asking for "shot for shot", or things being exactly the same. I'm asking for the primary emphasis of the story and the characterisation of the main characters to stay broadly the same, as is almost always understood by a remake.

Look at a broadly successful and beloved remake like the Resident Evil 1 remake. It wasn't shot for shot. New encounters and sections, lots of overhaul, new writing. I adore it.

I wouldn't adore it if they sidelined the whole bioweapon/virus research/evil corporation storyline in favour of some multi-dimensional plot that wasn't in the original at all, but then turns out to be more narratively important than anything else. Or if they replaced the last boss with a fate-alien. That's simply not the story I enjoyed.
 
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CriticalGaming

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I wouldn't adore it if they sidelined the whole bioweapon/virus research/evil corporation storyline in favour of some multi-dimensional plot that wasn't in the original at all, but then turns out to be more narratively important than anything else. Or if they replaced the last boss with a fate-alien. That's simply not the story I enjoyed.
I watched someone play FF7 OG for the first time over the weekend, and something struck me as interesting. When it got to the point where they were digging into Cloud's past and the big reveal of Zack being the person who was actually in Nibelhiem, the streamer had no fucking clue who it was or why any of it mattered beyond Cloud really just being the grunt dude and having made it all up. The streamer didn't find the extra scenes in the game where it shows Zack save Cloud from the experiments in the Shinra mansion and take him to Midgar, nor the scene where the soldiers unload guns into Zack's body.

This struck me as an interesting aspect of the Remake Trilogy as well as why they remastered Crisis Core. Zack is very important to Cloud's story and in the original game he's very badly used. My guess is part of the whole reality twisting and putting Crisis Core out there, is entirely to give new players the opportunity to relate to Zack and know who he was, so that the truth of what Cloud's been through makes more sense and everything ties together better.

That's my theory on it. Because as great as FF7 is, a lot of the writing was not great.
 
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Silvanus

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I watched someone play FF7 OG for the first time over the weekend, and something struck me as interesting. When it got to the point where they were digging into Cloud's past and the big reveal of Zack being the person who was actually in Nibelhiem, the streamer had no fucking clue who it was or why any of it mattered beyond Cloud really just being the grunt dude and having made it all up. The streamer didn't find the extra scenes in the game where it shows Zack save Cloud from the experiments in the Shinra mansion and take him to Midgar, nor the scene where the soldiers unload guns into Zack's body.

This struck me as an interesting aspect of the Remake Trilogy as well as why they remastered Crisis Core. Zack is very important to Cloud's story and in the original game he's very badly used. My guess is part of the whole reality twisting and putting Crisis Core out there, is entirely to give new players the opportunity to relate to Zack and know who he was, so that the truth of what Cloud's been through makes more sense and everything ties together better.

That's my theory on it. Because as great as FF7 is, a lot of the writing was not great.
Yeah, the original really doesn't communicate a lot of things very well, and that's a prime example. I'd love additional scenes and sections to explore them, so long as they didn't fundamentally alter the story we did have.

To use the Resident Evil 1 analogy again: the Lisa Trevor stuff in the the Remake was fantastic, and gave them a chance to explore something that had scant attention in the original release. But it was an addition. Imagine if they instead chose to explore the Trevor family's experience by having George Trevor survive in another dimension, created by the defiance of destiny or something. That becomes more than an addition; it becomes a major rewrite and drastically affects the rest of the story.
 
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CriticalGaming

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*Shrug*

I don't see where or how they fundamentally altered the story. Everything is an expansion, or a retelling with some slight changes to event specifics but the event itself remains the same. But I'm not going to plead any cases to change anyones mind. Take what you want from story events that's the fun of theorycrafting things.
 
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BrawlMan

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To use the Resident Evil 1 analogy again: the Lisa Trevor stuff in the the Remake was fantastic, and gave them a chance to explore something that had scant attention in the original release. But it was an addition.
Interesting trivia, Lisa Trevor was originally supposed to be in OG_RE1, but got cut due to the time development and Capcom trying to meet their deadline.
 
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meiam

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I watched someone play FF7 OG for the first time over the weekend, and something struck me as interesting. When it got to the point where they were digging into Cloud's past and the big reveal of Zack being the person who was actually in Nibelhiem, the streamer had no fucking clue who it was or why any of it mattered beyond Cloud really just being the grunt dude and having made it all up. The streamer didn't find the extra scenes in the game where it shows Zack save Cloud from the experiments in the Shinra mansion and take him to Midgar, nor the scene where the soldiers unload guns into Zack's body.

This struck me as an interesting aspect of the Remake Trilogy as well as why they remastered Crisis Core. Zack is very important to Cloud's story and in the original game he's very badly used. My guess is part of the whole reality twisting and putting Crisis Core out there, is entirely to give new players the opportunity to relate to Zack and know who he was, so that the truth of what Cloud's been through makes more sense and everything ties together better.

That's my theory on it. Because as great as FF7 is, a lot of the writing was not great.
FF7 became a beloved classic and Cloud a popular character because his story resonated with people back then, not because they knew that in the future crisis core would be made and Zack would become important.

Not knowing who Zack is not a problem, he's pretty much irrelevant to the core story. The point is that Cloud wasn't a soldier, he failed to become what he said he would and was so ashamed of it he didn't even dare meet up with Tifa. But, despite being a lowly grunt, when Sephiroth killed his village/mom he still had the courage to go up against his former idol and wound him. Most story hero are about chosen one who are predestined to success, all they have to do is not fuck up (something which they can typically barely achieve), Cloud initially seem like that, the big shot solider. But it turn out, he's not, he's just a nobody who still managed to achieve greatness. This is reinforced subtlety throughout the game, character that should recognize Cloud as a soldier don't, Sephiroth can't even be bothered to interact with him for most of the story (and then just use and discard him).

The new canon reverse that, now Cloud is a big chosen one and everyone is obsessed with him. As far as Zack role in this story, it's little more than just to answer the question of how Cloud went back to Midgard and why he became a mercenary. Someone playing trough the game and not realizing who he is isn't an issue, he's just an easter egg for people who want to dig deeper.

Speaking as somebody who's only played the first Remake, and not Rebirth yet: if it was too much the same as the original, I'd be willing to put money down that in the universe where it was closer to the original text, a lot of the same folks complaining about how it's unfaithful here would complain about it being pointless there. Not to throw any shade on you as an individual, or to imply that you actually don't want something more like the original, of course. I'm just saying that a remake also needs to change things, and not just recreate the original shot for shot with better technology and different actors. Times change and so do audiences; expecting media to stay the exact same forever, other than the FF7 PS1 disc you presumably still own, isn't something I can get behind.
I mean, I'd like to play a game where the character in the game have, you know, hands, just that would make the remake worth it. Look, in a perfect world, square would still be banging out amazing game year after year, with a great mainline FF game every 3-4 years carried by moving story. In that world, I: 1) wouldn't really care about remaking FF7 and 2) wouldn't mind if they changed the FF7 story (because they presumably would still have good writer on hand).

But this isn't the world we live in, Square output as been pretty disastrous in the last decades or two, with most game having horrendous story and them taking almost a decade between new FF entry (which are all pretty disappointing with pointlessly convoluted bad story, to say nothing of stuff like kingdom heart "story"). In this case, them faithfully remaking game is a lot more appealing because they clearly can't write anymore, but maybe they can copy their own homework successfully.

In other word, this what I think current Square is doing.
1713215285803.jpeg
 

CriticalGaming

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The new canon reverse that, now Cloud is a big chosen one and everyone is obsessed with him.
You mean the girls? That was still the case with the original.

If you mean Sephiroth's connection to Cloud. Well that's true.....sort of. In the original game the Sephiroth they chased all over the world was never him. It was Jenova, and that's still the case in the Remakes. However in the OG Jenova/Sephiroth didn't really have any connection to Cloud, and even when they encountered Sephiroth on the boat to Costa Del Sol the Sephiroth there didn't know who Cloud was.

However the next time they meet up with Sephiroth in the Shinra Manor Sephiroth DID know Cloud, and every meeting thereafter. So again it's sort of a case of bad and inconsistent writing in which the villain and hero don't have any connection for any real reason. That relationship is rebuilt to be more familiar in the Remakes and serves two purposes. Number 1 it reenforces Cloud's status as unreliable narrator, figuring the connection made sense because Cloud said they've known each other a while. Number 2 it gives Sephiroth a more villainous role for the party instead of "oh he's bad because he'll kill the planet" there is more of a personal connection there. Like it or hate it it makes sense and fits with the overall story thusfar.
 

Silvanus

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However the next time they meet up with Sephiroth in the Shinra Manor Sephiroth DID know Cloud, and every meeting thereafter. So again it's sort of a case of bad and inconsistent writing in which the villain and hero don't have any connection for any real reason. That relationship is rebuilt to be more familiar in the Remakes and serves two purposes. Number 1 it reenforces Cloud's status as unreliable narrator, figuring the connection made sense because Cloud said they've known each other a while. Number 2 it gives Sephiroth a more villainous role for the party instead of "oh he's bad because he'll kill the planet" there is more of a personal connection there. Like it or hate it it makes sense and fits with the overall story thusfar.
I can certainly understand where you're coming from when you say it makes the threat more 'personal' to the party (and Cloud in particular). That's true.

But I'd say it dramatically undermines the Cloud-amnesia story element, and majorly sidelines Jenova, who was a more interesting villain to me in OG. Plus, the writing between Cloud and Sephiroth in Remake leans into some of the worst anime tropes. "Defy fate with me, broody protag!" It's made Sephiroth a clichéd protag-obsessive anime villain, in a major recharacterisation that I'd say is for the worse.
 

CriticalGaming

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It's made Sephiroth a clichéd protag-obsessive anime villain, in a major recharacterisation that I'd say is for the worse.
Odd that you can be worse than non-existent. Sephiroth barely spoke or had any personality in the OG. Well the real Sephiroth at least. 90% of his presence was Jenova and that is something the original game didnt make very clear either.

I agree Jenova has been sidelined and os more of an omnious looming enemy. The source of everything but not the driving factor really. The new characterization makes things more clear and drives a more clear motive. The group never ever was chasing after Jenova, they were always after Sephiroth. And the Remakes make that more clear.
 

Silvanus

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Odd that you can be worse than non-existent. Sephiroth barely spoke or had any personality in the OG. Well the real Sephiroth at least. 90% of his presence was Jenova and that is something the original game didnt make very clear either.
You can absolutely be worse than non-existent-- when the new role for the character ends up sidelining other, more interesting and unique villains.

I agree Jenova has been sidelined and os more of an omnious looming enemy. The source of everything but not the driving factor really. The new characterization makes things more clear and drives a more clear motive. The group never ever was chasing after Jenova, they were always after Sephiroth. And the Remakes make that more clear.
The only thing it introduces to the motivation of the group-- this now-mutual fixation between Sephiroth and Cloud-- is not only unnecessary, but actively clashes with the story element of Cloud's delusion.
 

Silvanus

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How do you figure?
Well as you said, part of Cloud's delusion in the original is his imagined relationship with Sephiroth. He is imagining something that isn't mutual and was never truly there. Then in the Remake-- Sephiroth is obsessed with him too, projecting into his mind, trying to convince him to join him defying fate. What was originally a delusion has been retroactively validated.

It's a bit like if the Remake had established that actually Cloud had the Buster Sword the whole time, or that he had all the same experiences as Zack anyway. His delusion wouldn't be delusion any more.