Your video game hot take(s) thread

Old_Hunter_77

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Less political hot take: the "primary gameplay loop" is not given enough respect in games coverage.

I been thinking about why my tastes in games veer so differently from critical consensus so much and why with games, unlike with other entertainment like movies, I see so many games that are beloved that I "respect" but cannot play, while I like dumb panned games like the evil Ubisoft even though I acknowledge their flaws, agree with the criticism, and still like them.

And the phrase "primary gameplay loop" comes into it. I credit Yahtzee for bringing it to my attention but I dunno if he coined it. Either way, he talks about it as the single most important aspect of a game, the thing that matters. He, and JM8, have discussed being in front of young aspiring game designers who pitch ideas and the ideas are all stories and settings and when asked "well what do you actually DO" they're like "well I dunno shoot things I guess." The point being- it's a game, and the player has to constantly do things, and if those things that you're repeatedly doing aren't fun, engaging, or interesting, then nothing else matters.


Makes sense! Now- whether those things are fun, engaging, or interesting depends on two thing. The first is quality, and I use the term in the engineering sense meaning that it performs the funtion intended- i.e., it works. Consistently, the player is show what to do and they can execute. The other is personal response- do I actually enjoy this activity? And assuming the first quality metric is successful, we get purely subjective here and this is the part that's missed in games coverage. Even if the shooting or jumping is done well, doesn't mean everyone is going to actually like shooting or jumping.

Example: Outer Wilds. The game is praised for its premise, it's world-building, and ending. But the primary gameplay loop is traveling in first person perspective and looking around. It's flying in that perspective with a physics-based action, or it's walking, and it's observing things. That is the actual game. If, like me, that perspective is headache-inducing, and that activity is inherently tedious, you are not going to enjoy this game. And the insistence to "push through" it or "it's all worth it in the end" is missing the point of video games as a medium. But if you like that stuff- if the idea of flying to planets to look around and all that is inherently fun- then sure!
(heh maybe I'm just making another case for mandatory demos).

Or Dark Souls- the primary gameplay loop is fighting things in 3rd person with primarily melee combat. Yes, even mage builds. So if attack, roll, roll, etc is fun- which it is to me- then Dark Souls has the potential to be fun. The other stuff- world, lore, clever levels, buildcraft- those are all great and what makes it better than other 3rd person difficult hack 'n' slash, but unless someone likes the primary loop of fighting things with this style of combat, Dark Souls will not be good for them.

Strategy game reviews are better about this because it's a less popular genre. They're like "if you like tower defense" etc because they know a lot of people just don't like that stuff. But guess what- a lot of people don't like fps navigation, or being lost in metroidvanias, or strong attack light attack dodge parry, or crafting. Video games require constant actions and should be judged very differently from movies. If someone tells me they like movies but haven't seen something great or classic, if I'm in the right mood I will annoyingly advocate for it. Because watching a movie- any movie- is inherently the same action- sitting there and paying attention, that's it. It's the same "primary loop." Not so with games.

And one's interest a loop can change, as with my decreased interest in said 3rd person melee combat which is why I've been lightly mocking the spate of soulslikes. I mean I just don't wanna R1 attack L1 parry no more, at least for a while. And that's just mean, you know, others are still into that, and that's fine.
 
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Families of victims of the Uvaldi school shooting are suing a few companies that are involved in marketing firearms to minors. Activision is included along with gun manufacturer and Meta.
Activision are full of scumbags. So I hold no blame to the families of the victims. They did nothing wrong. I didn't know about this and thank you for sharing.
dunno if he coined it.
He did not. That term was already in use before he even got started.


unless someone likes the primary loop of fighting things with this style of combat, Dark Souls will not be good for them.
Congratulations, now you know why I don't care for dark souls much.

L1 parry no more, at least for a while. And that's just mean, you know, others are still into that, and that's fine.
For most action games, it's [O] or B for XBOX to parry. It's also why I changed to the face buttons with the norse god of war games. I will never use r1 or r 2 light and heavy attacks.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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For most action games, it's [O] or B for XBOX to parry. It's also why I changed to the face buttons with the norse god of war games. I will never use r1 or r 2 light and heavy attacks.
That's... weird, lol. I mean whatever works for you I guess but it's one of the Dark Souls changes to gaming I like, because it makes sense logically- our index fingers are faster and more dexterous than our thumbs. So you want to be doing the most important, frequent actions with them.
I didn't like it at first but the first time I did a replay of Witcher 3 after playing some souls I was annoyed at my thumbs.
 
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That's... weird, lol. I mean whatever works for you I guess but it's one of the Dark Souls changes to gaming I like, because it makes sense logically- our index fingers are faster and more dexterous than our thumbs. So you want to be doing the most important, frequent actions with them.
I didn't like it at first but the first time I did a replay of Witcher 3 after playing some souls I was annoyed at my thumbs.
Call me crazy but I’m thinking the camera function being often critical in these games with environmental hazards compared to typical action games set within “arena” style level design is why the shoulder buttons are the primary attack/defend. That way, the player can still move the camera independently if needed instead of constantly having to thumb back and forth, which can also mess with aiming.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Call me crazy but I’m thinking the camera function being often critical in these games with environmental hazards compared to typical action games set within “arena” style level design is why the shoulder buttons are the primary attack/defend. That way, the player can still move the camera independently if needed instead of constantly having to thumb back and forth, which can also mess with aiming.
But you can still move the camera with the right joystick in games where the attack buttons are face. Or are you talking about simultaneously moving the character WHILE moving the camera WHILE attacking? I guess... I dunno I never thought about it like that.
 
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But you can still move the camera with the right joystick in games where the attack buttons are face. Or are you talking about simultaneously moving the character WHILE moving the camera WHILE attacking? I guess... I dunno I never thought about it like that.
Yup, basically that. Having primary combat inputs on the shoulder buttons makes sense in those cases where you don’t want your thumb off the right stick, including switching targets when fighting a group with lock-on.
 

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That's... weird,
It's not really weird when that's been the standard since the 2000s. That's how it was for most action games back then. That's how it is now for nearly any melee focused non-Dark Souls style action games. [SQR] + [TRI] For light & heavy attacks respectively. X + Y for XBOX. The only time I ever use the triggers for attacking, is equipping Nero's shoot button to R2/RT.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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"Identity" in regards to entertainment/fiction IP doesn't matter, and ppl like Yahtzee just sound insane to me when they go on about it like it's become part of their identity to grasp so stubbornly onto fictional videogame IP identity. From listening to a lot of his musings over time it sounds more and more like the source of frustration is born of nostalgia and a contractual/professional willingness to verbosely justify it beyond that. Could be a neurodivergent thought process perhaps. Things are always changing, as they always have. What matters in the grand scheme is if it's good. If it is, culture obsorbs it fondly. If it ain't, then rejection and/or cultural neglect pushes it further to the forgetting void. Just cause a particular form happened to be "good" during your formative years, it don't mean that's the only version of it's identity that counts.
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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"Identity" in regards to entertainment/fiction IP doesn't matter, and ppl like Yahtzee just sound insane to me when they go on about it like it's become part of their identity to grasp so stubbornly onto fictional videogame IP identity. From listening to a lot of his musings over time it sounds more and more like the source of frustration is born of nostalgia and a contractual/professional willingness to verbosely justify it beyond that. Could be a neurodivergent thought process perhaps. Things are always changing, as they always have. What matters in the grand scheme is if it's good. If it is, culture obsorbs it fondly. If it ain't, then rejection and/or cultural neglect pushes it further to the forgetting void. Just cause a particular form happened to be "good" during your formative years, it don't mean that's the only version of it's identity that counts.
He has a very open and frequently cited bias towards auteur-generated art including games. It's a similar bias we see in music and film and it's been a point of examination for decades there as well.
 

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"Identity" in regards to entertainment/fiction IP doesn't matter, and ppl like Yahtzee just sound insane to me when they go on about it like it's become part of their identity to grasp so stubbornly onto fictional videogame IP identity. From listening to a lot of his musings over time it sounds more and more like the source of frustration is born of nostalgia and a contractual/professional willingness to verbosely justify it beyond that. Could be a neurodivergent thought process perhaps. Things are always changing, as they always have. What matters in the grand scheme is if it's good. If it is, culture absorbs it fondly. If it ain't, then rejection and/or cultural neglect pushes it further to the forgetting void. Just cause a particular form happened to be "good" during your formative years, it don't mean that's the only version of it's identity that counts.
You saw the Windbreaker episode on AAA Identity from Monday, didn't you? I agree with you 100%. As long as the game or ip is good, the identity will be fine, or doesn't matter much in the long run. Things always change, and change is not inherently bad or good, but it does happend. The only time change is bad is when you're going after a target audience that didn't care for your franchise to begin with, and you're trying to CoD/Gears fans who already got what they wanted for example.

Just cause a particular form happened to be "good" during your formative years, it don't mean that's the only version of it's identity that counts.
Nearly everything about Yahtzee in that episode screamed: "Old Man Yells At Cloud" energy. I will give him some credit actually defending Sonic somewhat and saying how franchises like Sonic and Mario will never go away, as one user hypothesized/wanted. Both franchises are too ingrained into the system and have crossed over into other media for years. Sonic especially. Even if or when a bad/lackluster title happens, all the company has to do is announce and release the next title and all is forgiven usually. The game has to be good too. Though Yahtzee still seems to forget that the people online nor old Sonic fans aren't the target audience. The kids have always been the target audience for the Sonic games, and I don't know why he sees it as such a mystery, "anomaly", nor conundrum. It's not rocket science.

He has a very open and frequently cited bias towards auteur-generated art including games. It's a similar bias we see in music and film and it's been a point of examination for decades there as well.
I can agree with him to an extent, but I don't mind it so long as the auteur does not have a head up their asses, and at least credits their team's hard work. It's why I prefer Suda 51, Hideki Kamiya, and Shinji Mikami so much.
 
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Or Dark Souls- the primary gameplay loop is fighting things in 3rd person with primarily melee combat. Yes, even mage builds. So if attack, roll, roll, etc is fun- which it is to me- then Dark Souls has the potential to be fun. The other stuff- world, lore, clever levels, buildcraft- those are all great and what makes it better than other 3rd person difficult hack 'n' slash, but unless someone likes the primary loop of fighting things with this style of combat, Dark Souls will not be good for them.

And one's interest a loop can change, as with my decreased interest in said 3rd person melee combat which is why I've been lightly mocking the spate of soulslikes. I mean I just don't wanna R1 attack L1 parry no more, at least for a while. And that's just mean, you know, others are still into that, and that's fine.
I don't get why "Souls" became a new genre when they are dungeon crawlers. Thus, instead of developers just doing their own take on that, they copied Souls games. The main problem I always had with Souls games is that they are way too combat heavy because their combat is really just alright. It's the other aspects of the games I enjoy far more than the combat. I would've have liked the Souls games a lot more if they were like environmental puzzlers with like say 10% of the enemies.

I bounced off games a lot because of how combat focused they all are. Games can do more interesting things than combat. Also, games used to have better combat systems before so we're just getting like prettier games with worse gameplay in essence nowadays.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Well we like to say we want diverse voices, well that means including voices that have very specific points of view that sound silly sometimes. Yes, Yahtzee is "old man yells at clouds." Well, sometimes that's good too. I feel more and more "old man yells at clouds" and as long as you're not being a dick about it, and can express where you're coming from, it can be valuable.

Heck I contributed a superchat to that episode where I stated that franchises should just end and Yahtzee agreed, and Assassin's Creed is the most common go-to example. And yet I keep playing and enjoying them. Because I don't go around seriously proclaiming and insisting on these ideas, it's just a good way to look at things sometimes.

The impetus for that topic was that there's gonna be a Doom game that is set in medieval times. Maybe other old-school Doom fans are like, wtf, that's weird?! I dunno I don't have much of a stake in that one I don't play shooters.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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You saw the Windbreaker episode on AAA Identity from Monday, didn't you? I agree with you 100%. As long as the game or ip is good, the identity will be fine, or doesn't matter much in the long run. Things always change, and change is not inherently bad or good, but it does happend. The only time change is bad is when you're going after a target audience that didn't care for your franchise to begin with, and you're trying to CoD/Gears fans who already got what they wanted for example.


Nearly everything about Yahtzee in that episode screamed: "Old Man Yells At Cloud" energy. I will give him some credit actually defending Sonic somewhat and saying how franchises like Sonic and Mario will never go away, as one user hypothesized/wanted. Both franchises are too ingrained into the system and have crossed over into other media for years. Sonic especially. Even if or when a bad/lackluster title happens, all the company has to do is announce and release the next title and all is forgiven usually. The game has to be good too. Though Yahtzee still seems to forget that the people online nor old Sonic fans aren't the target audience. The kids have always been the target audience for the Sonic games, and I don't know why he sees it as such a mystery, "anomaly", nor conundrum. It's not rocket science.


I can agree with him to an extent, but I don't mind it so long as the auteur does not have a head up their asses, and at least credits their team's hard work. It's why I prefer Suda 51, Hideki Kamiya, and Shinji Mikami so much.
I did. Was a bit disappointed by how softball everyone feels they have to be in debate with him, but I understand it. Thing is it ain't even applied consistently. The steamworld games are pretty much indie and they've gone through more genres in the last decade than some platforms' entire libraries. Last one I bought from them was a city building genre! Also their chosen definition of auteur-requirement for identity just doesn't hold up in any reality I've dabbled in, it's anchored only on an ideal hyper-focused narrow 'memberberry interpretation of the whole entertainment industries history of his. It's this chip he's worn on his shoulder for so many years, like with the weird kneejerk reaction to Song of the Sea being a lower budget game made by a high budget studio, when it was the lead developer just wanting to make a game their daughter could relate to and enjoy - but to yahtzee it was an affront, an "impersonation of indie" he could not accept.
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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I don't get why "Souls" became a new genre when they are dungeon crawlers. Thus, instead of developers just doing their own take on that, they copied Souls games. The main problem I always had with Souls games is that they are way too combat heavy because their combat is really just alright. It's the other aspects of the games I enjoy far more than the combat. I would've have liked the Souls games a lot more if they were like environmental puzzlers with like say 10% of the enemies.

I bounced off games a lot because of how combat focused they all are. Games can do more interesting things than combat. Also, games used to have better combat systems before so we're just getting like prettier games with worse gameplay in essence nowadays.
Darks Souls is not a dungeon crawler lol.
People make a big deal about Elden Ring's open world but Dark Souls is a whole interconnected world, it's just a lot smaller. Sure sometimes it can feel like a dungeon crawler in some of the tight spaces but... well, it's not a dungeon crawler, I dunno what to say.

The bit about combat... man, I dunno- like, of course combat is the focus, that's... the game. Weird take, honestly. "The problem with Forza Horizon games is too much driving" or something.
 
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Well, sometimes that's good too
About only 5% of the time. Any more than that and it's just glorified nostalgia wank.
as long as you're not being a dick about it, and can express where you're coming from, it can be valuable.
That's the problem. He's been a dick about it more than once and for the past decade.

Heck I contributed a superchat to that episode where I stated that franchises should just end and Yahtzee agreed, and Assassin's Creed is the most common go-to example.
AC should have ended years ago. The only reason I am interested in Shadows is because they're actually trying something different once. I know/heard Mirage is good according to word of mouth and my older brother, but I have no interests at the moment. I wanted CoD to end, but I stop giving a rat's ass about worrying on that franchise since BLOPS2. I stopped playing since MW2 released anyway. At this point, I only focus on the things I am interested in or gives me joy, instead getting upset at franchises I don't like that still exists.

The impetus for that topic was that there's gonna be a Doom game that is set in medieval times. Maybe other old-school Doom fans are like, wtf, that's weird?! I dunno I don't have much of a stake in that one I don't play shooters.
It's not so much that, as it is this new Doom game is taking its visual style and aesthetics from Quake I. There are a lot of old-school Quake fans that want new 3D single player title, and feels the new Doom is robbing that chance. I don't have a problem with it, but I understand their perspective. The most recent Quake title from 2020 is multiplayer only.


I did. Was a bit disappointed by how softball everyone feels they have to be in debate with him, but I understand it. Thing is it ain't even applied consistently. The steamworld games are pretty much indie and they've gone through more genres in the last decade than some platforms' entire libraries. Last one I bought from them was a city building genre! Also their chosen definition of auteur-requirement for identity just doesn't hold up in any reality I've dabbled in, it's anchored only on an ideal hyper-focused narrow 'memberberry interpretation of the whole entertainment industries history of his.
Yep; called it. Nothing but memberries and nostalgia goggles. Mind if I quote you? I had this idea/post for the Space Battles controversial gaming opinions thread? If so, I can leave you anonymous if you wish.
Darks Souls is not a dungeon crawler lol.
People make a big deal about Elden Ring's open world but Dark Souls is a whole interconnected world, it's just a lot smaller. Sure sometimes it can feel like a dungeon crawler in some of the tight spaces but... well, it's not a dungeon crawler, I dunno what to say.

The bit about combat... man, I dunno- like, of course combat is the focus, that's... the game. Weird take, honestly. "The problem with Forza Horizon games is too much driving" or something.
In essence, most Dark Souls style games or the games from that franchise are 3D Metroidvanias. Always has been.

"The problem with Forza Horizon games is too much driving" or something.
I've seen people make complaints about "too much fighting" in Streets of Rage 4. WTF were you all expecting?

I will give a few thing Hyperstone Heist has over Turtles in Times (SNES). HH has better sounding music and it much closer to how the TiT Arcade soundtrack is, and having more aggressive enemies. You also get to see Shredder actually fall in HH compared to either version of TiT. You don't see the impact, but you hear it in HH.

Anybody that's says Mikey and Raph are the worse characters to play in these games only partially know what they're talking about. Raph is of course the Glass Cannon of the group in any of the games. Mikey on the other hand is almost a game breaker in the home console ports of TiT. He may not have as much range Leo, but he's still faster than him. Especially in HH. Donnie is actually little harder to use, because in HH he's much slower compared to TiT and the enemies get a speed and reaction boost. He's still great with bosses, but even some of trash mobs can give him trouble if not careful.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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About only 5% of the time. Any more than that and it's just glorified nostalgia wank.

That's the problem. He's been a dick about it more than once and for the past decade.


AC should have ended years ago. The only reason I am interested in Shadows is because they're actually trying something different once. I know/heard Mirage is good according to word of mouth and my older brother, but I have no interests at the moment. I wanted CoD to end, but I stop giving a rat's ass about worrying on that franchise since BLOPS2. I stopped playing since MW2 released anyway. At this point, I only focus on the things I am interested in or gives me joy, instead getting upset at franchises I don't like that still exists.


It's not so much that, as it is this new Doom game is taking its visual style and aesthetics from Quake I. There are a lot of old-school Quake fans that want new 3D single player title, and feels the new Doom is robbing that chance. I don't have a problem with it, but I understand their perspective. The most recent Quake title from 2020 is multiplayer only.



Yep; called it. Nothing but memberries and nostalgia goggles. Mind if I quote you? I had this idea/post for the Space Battles controversial gaming opinions thread? If so, I can leave you anonymous if you wish.

In essence, most Dark Souls style games or the games from that franchise are 3D Metroidvanias. Always has been.


I've seen people make complaints about "too much fighting" in Streets of Rage 4. WTF were you all expecting?

I will give a few thing Hyperstone Heist has over Turtles in Times (SNES). HH has better sounding music and it much closer to how the TiT Arcade soundtrack is, and having more aggressive enemies. You also get to see Shredder actually fall in HH compared to either version of TiT. You don't see the impact, but you hear it in HH.

Anybody that's says Mikey and Raph are the worse characters to play in these games only partially know what they're talking about. Raph is of course the Glass Cannon of the group in any of the games. Mikey on the other hand is almost a game breaker in the home console ports of TiT. He may not have as much range Leo, but he's still faster than him. Especially in HH. Donnie is actually little harder to use, because in HH he's much slower compared to TiT and the enemies get a speed and reaction boost. He's still great with bosses, but even some of trash mobs can give him trouble if not careful.
Yeah that's no problem, quote away, I abandon all ownership of my posts as soon as they're posted anyway heh 😉🤗
 
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I did. Was a bit disappointed by how softball everyone feels they have to be in debate with him, but I understand it. Thing is it ain't even applied consistently. The steamworld games are pretty much indie and they've gone through more genres in the last decade than some platforms' entire libraries. Last one I bought from them was a city building genre! Also their chosen definition of auteur-requirement for identity just doesn't hold up in any reality I've dabbled in, it's anchored only on an ideal hyper-focused narrow 'memberberry interpretation of the whole entertainment industries history of his. It's this chip he's worn on his shoulder for so many years, like with the weird kneejerk reaction to Song of the Sea being a lower budget game made by a high budget studio, when it was the lead developer just wanting to make a game their daughter could relate to and enjoy - but to yahtzee it was an affront, an "impersonation of indie" he could not accept.
Idk, it always feels like his whole angle is essentially being a bit of a prick relying on a schtick. Not quite as much as an Angry Joe but yeah that’s the impression I get whenever watching his “reviews”.
 
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Darks Souls is not a dungeon crawler lol.
People make a big deal about Elden Ring's open world but Dark Souls is a whole interconnected world, it's just a lot smaller. Sure sometimes it can feel like a dungeon crawler in some of the tight spaces but... well, it's not a dungeon crawler, I dunno what to say.

The bit about combat... man, I dunno- like, of course combat is the focus, that's... the game. Weird take, honestly. "The problem with Forza Horizon games is too much driving" or something.

The thing that has me most intrigued about the dlc is it sounds like it goes back to a more interwoven map design, including verticality. Miyazaki threw the term “granular” out there, making better use of space, blending the overworld and “dungeon” stuff better. Sure all the gameplay additions sound neat, but also addressing one of the bigger issues with base game is a finer touch IMO.
 
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Darks Souls is not a dungeon crawler lol.
People make a big deal about Elden Ring's open world but Dark Souls is a whole interconnected world, it's just a lot smaller. Sure sometimes it can feel like a dungeon crawler in some of the tight spaces but... well, it's not a dungeon crawler, I dunno what to say.

The bit about combat... man, I dunno- like, of course combat is the focus, that's... the game. Weird take, honestly. "The problem with Forza Horizon games is too much driving" or something.
Every "section" of Dark Souls is a different dungeon in essence. A dungeon is not just a small tight rooms/hallways/prison. A dungeon can be a forest for example. In Souls, you are going through areas filled with enemies to get to the boss to "beat" the area (aka dungeon).

The term started from that game and in gaming itself it’s morphed into using for an instanced area (cut off from other players) where you go with one goal of making it all the way through and fighting the last boss for loot.

To me, the strong points of a Souls game is the atmosphere and level design. The combat itself is average at best, I don't know why we have to lock onto enemies to properly fight, that was done away with during the PS2 gen. I'd a love a game similar to Souls that was just like say Sen's Fortress (but better) with traps and puzzles, kinda like a dark Ico in essence. You can still have enemies but you can much much fewer enemies, and you can still do boss battles as well. The Batman Arkham games are prime examples of how you don't make the combat system what you're doing 90% of the time in a game when the combat isn't that great. The Batman games aren't just all combat, they have the stealth sections, the exploration/detective areas, the story bits so when you get to another combat area, you're kinda excited to fight again because you haven't in a bit. Whereas the Lord of the Rings Shadow of Mordor game, it's literally just all Arkham combat and nothing else and the combat isn't good enough to be what you're doing the entire game. I remember getting to the 2nd area in the game (as I didn't know there was a 2nd area) and just groaning so hard because I was so tired of the combat already.
 

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Shadows of Mordor parlayed the combat system into its Nemesis system and that was what made it fun. I did feel it wore out its welcome by the sequel but the first one ruled.
 
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