US supreme court rules Trump has ‘absolute immunity’ for official acts

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,849
3,718
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Having electors set for both major candidates, prepared to vote depending who wins, is normal procedure in every presidential election. The fear mongering over this relies on electoral ignorance. In 1960, Hawaii had a close race, and despite losing, Kennedy's electors did the same thing these "fake electors" did, and when the election flipped on recount, their votes became the legally valid votes. If any of the races in 2020 miraculously got flipped or thrown out as a result of the many legal challenges, those "fake electors" would be the valid ones, and Biden's electors would be void. As it happened, none of them did, so those votes were legally meaningless.

Wanting to win and being prepared to try to win through every legal means is not a coup.
Except this wasn't a legal mean, this was deliberately illegal. Most of the people who tried to pull this have been charged.

I don't get why you conservatives are so eager to break every aspect of our democracy. I swear you just want a king.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CaitSeith

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,175
1,614
118
Country
The Netherlands
This should have been a campaign sinking week for Trump in any sane political system.

-He's been caught on live television bragging about discussing the Ukraine invasion with Putin. If not dangerously veering close to treason its certainly immoral to the extreme.
-His ties to Epstein, always an open secret Americans for some reason decided to be supremely lenient on have been exposed beyond any shadow of doubt. pedophilia and rape are supposed to be the last taboos but they're apparently not when Donald does it
-And his Project 2025 guy has promised to inflect bloodshed should Americans not be on board with his scheme to eliminate democracy.
-While more of a victory for Trump his cronies on the supreme court retroactively trying to legalize his coup should have shaken everyone awake.

And yet media and electorate alike have circled the wagon and decided to take this all with complete silence and apathy. At best they're like ''Yeah we know its bad but we just don't WANT there to be consequence for any of this, and Biden being old gives us a good excuse for that!''

The media has their motive in the sense that they're owned by corrupt billionaires who'd like to see their representative in charge again, but I don't think the American citizens themselves even understand why they take this stance. The rest of the world sure doesn't.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,037
964
118
Country
USA
Except this wasn't a legal mean, this was deliberately illegal. Most of the people who tried to pull this have been charged.
Not a single one has been convicted, to my knowledge. Some agreed to a deal in a civil case, where they agreed to say Joe Biden won, but they probably would have done that for free, and that's a far thing from a criminal conviction. In more than half of the states with "fake electors", none of them were charged, and some of those that were charged have had cases dropped, and as far as I know not a single "fake elector" has been convicted of a crime.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
19,964
4,713
118
1.) People tried to kill HItler a freaking amount of times, even before WWII.

2.) Replacing debate with violence on the street and all major parties ending up having their own militia (Freikorps, SA, Stahlhem, Spartakus, Reichsbanner, Eiserne Front, Antifa) did make the middle class scared and helped the NAZIs get into power.


"Letting fists and weapons speak" is always what the extreme right wants. Because their arguments are poor but they have many violent followers. That is why so many MAGA nutters phantasize about civil war.
Just speaking from the heart at the moment to be honest. I'm not advocating for violence, I'm just despairing liberals complete addiction to the status quo as nationalists and ultra conservatives are gaining more and more power. And with the current political climate no one seems willing to risk fighting back.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,037
964
118
Country
USA
I don't think the American citizens themselves even understand why they take this stance. The rest of the world sure doesn't.
You mean you don't understand why American citizens take that stance. We understand quite well what is going on, you live in a fantasy land and don't understand why we aren't freaking out about the imaginary monsters in your head.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,085
6,327
118
Assassinating US citizens is not within the role of the Navy Seals. As such, the President ordering them to do so would be outside his constitutional authority.
I almost feel that this demands the response "So if not the Navy Seals, which US agency would carry out the assassinations of US citizens?"

Assassination is perhaps the wrong term here, because assassination implies illegality. I think the preferred phrase is "targetted killing". So, does the president have the right to order the targetted killings of people - an order that provides a legal basis to kill? Very obviously so, and the USA has cheered many times when it has been carried out.

So, with a finer grain, what stops a US president doing this for a US citizen? The US government has apparently ordered the targetted killing of US citizens abroad: the courts have not, thus far, intervened. In the absence of challenge, that right presumably still stands. There really is no obvious law preventing this - at best allusions to vaguely worded Constitutional phrases open to wide interpretation.

If there is apparently good legal reason to believe the president can order the deaths of US abroad, there's no particularly clear reason to think it cannot order them killed on US soil either. At best, the difference is probably as thin as it being reasoned that the government should have alternative means of exerting its power on home soil compared to abroad. Anyway, the long and short of it, is that there currently is very little, if not nothing at all, that clearly prohibits the US president ordering the deaths of US citizens.
 

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,175
1,614
118
Country
The Netherlands
You mean you don't understand why American citizens take that stance. We understand quite well what is going on, you live in a fantasy land and don't understand why we aren't freaking out about the imaginary monsters in your head.
Name one thing that's imaginary. I recall the last time the right tried gasslighting people they were overreacting and then literally every warning came true. Up to the attempt to overthrow democracy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CaitSeith

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,374
381
88

Basically the ruling has made the attempt to evaluate if a presidential action is an unofficial act a Catch-22 in Court.

PS: It also means that Biden is immune to anything he does from now on. Let that sink in...
 
  • Like
Reactions: XsjadoBlayde

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,849
3,718
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Not a single one has been convicted, to my knowledge. Some agreed to a deal in a civil case, where they agreed to say Joe Biden won, but they probably would have done that for free, and that's a far thing from a criminal conviction. In more than half of the states with "fake electors", none of them were charged, and some of those that were charged have had cases dropped, and as far as I know not a single "fake elector" has been convicted of a crime.
As I understand we are just entering the trial phase for most of the cases. But, with the supreme court ruling, I wouldn't be surprised if they all have to be dropped since this kinda falls under the executive branch and thus can't even be investigated. Or at least, that is what trump is arguing.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,374
381
88
Without having even a single argument to back it up.
So? That doesn't matter now. What matters is what they truly believe, right here, right now. Otherwise, if they don't believe in what they say, why should we have to keep listening to those fucking uncommitted apathetic pseudo-informed loudmouths in good faith? Why should these stupid children have a say in the adult's conversation?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Kwak

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,800
6,155
118
Country
United Kingdom
Ordering the Seals to deal with a political rival does not fit just as well, as that is not something the Navy Seals are allowed to do. The President has the constitutional authority to command those beneath him in how to fulfill their particular roles. The president does not have the authority to command those beneath him to do things outside their roles.
Yet he did exactly that, and the SCOTUS ruled that was fine.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,037
964
118
Country
USA
So, with a finer grain, what stops a US president doing this for a US citizen? The US government has apparently ordered the targetted killing of US citizens abroad: the courts have not, thus far, intervened. In the absence of challenge, that right presumably still stands. There really is no obvious law preventing this - at best allusions to vaguely worded Constitutional phrases open to wide interpretation.
You are going about this backwards, as a matter of law we do not consider category by category who is allowed to be killed. Rather, we start with "nobody is allowed to be killed" and make exceptions. Combatants in war, sentenced convicts, or people who present immediate direct physical threat to the life of another are carved out as specific exceptions to the broad illegality of killing. There need not be a specific precedent to say ordering the killing of a political rival is illegal, rather the onus on you would be to explain what exception found in the written law or legal precedent would apply in that scenario.
Name one thing that's imaginary.
We've already discussed half you list in the last 48 hours. The "project 2025 guy" did not promise to inflict bloodshed to start.
Basically the ruling has made the attempt to evaluate if a presidential action is an unofficial act a Catch-22 in Court.

PS: It also means that Biden is immune to anything he does from now on. Let that sink in...
Do not listen to a Legal Eagle, he's wrong about literally everything he decides to comment on.
As I understand we are just entering the trial phase for most of the cases. But, with the supreme court ruling, I wouldn't be surprised if they all have to be dropped since this kinda falls under the executive branch and thus can't even be investigated. Or at least, that is what trump is arguing.
Again, few of them even made it to the beginning of trial phase, and it's been 3.5 years.
Yet he did exactly that, and the SCOTUS ruled that was fine.
You're gonna have to be more specific. What did he tell the AG to do outside of his specified role?
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,849
3,718
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Again, few of them even made it to the beginning of trial phase, and it's been 3.5 years.
Because the legal system moves sloooow. People don't realize how slow the legal process is. Its even slower when one side uses delaying tactics. Which is trumps favorite tactic.
 

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,694
1,285
118
Country
United States
You tend to start slinging shit the moment someone disagrees with damn near anything you say.
Nah, I treat posters with exactly the respect which I'm shown. Otherwise, I bring citations, which I'm sure is more than sufficient to qualify as "slinging shit" to you when it's a citation that disagrees with your conclusions in any way whatsoever.

Don't blame me for getting sick of the condescension and passive-aggressiveness with which you treat others years ago, and decided to treat you in kind. Look in the mirror.

No, I mean criminal prosecution, the subject of the ruling.
"Criminal prosecution and no other individual facet, which may or may not influence any forthcoming court ruling, regardless of context, justiciability, political reality, or the Constitutional or statutory constraints of the judiciary."

No, all you want to do (yet again) is scream Orange Man Bad into the void, to hell or highwater with the consequences. Of which this court decision is exactly one. Just as the case with Roe, liberals fucked around expecting juridical democracy to bend the knee to their whim regardless of reality itself is their political automaton wont, and found out.

Of course, when nothing is objectively our undeniably set out, the SCOTUS will draw on whatever is most convenient to what they want to rule. Much like how they'll appeal to something being "historically significant" when it's useful.
And of course, ratio just don't matter so long as you agree with the outcome...

Nice try, but that's a tremendously weak equivalence. Some actions are taken as part of a President's duties. Some are not.

For what it's worth, there are plenty of actions for which Obama (and half the other Presidents) should absolutely be indicted for, in an ideal world. But it's fun to see you argue for letting them all off the hook after condemning them for so long.
Man, you're gonna be real pissed if you ever read Mississippi v. Johnson (1867) and realize the full extent of a president's discretionary duties, the ones to which executive immunity applies.

I say they ought to be. I also say they won't. Because unlike you, I'm capable of telling the difference between reality and political fantasy, my political beliefs and law, what what is and what ought to be.

That's it? "The damage is already done" so no use pursuing justice? Cool, I'll be sure to try that if I ever get taken to court. I can't do exactly the same crime again, so just drop it eh, its moot.
More attempts to condescendingly dismiss and distract. Which you must at this point, because you know damn well the legal recourse to presidential crime is to impeach, remove from office, and remand to criminal court. As Trump was in office at the time the alleged crime was committed, but is no longer in office, there is no longer a legal remedy for that crime, meaning the case is moot.

But you can't do that, because you also know damn well the goalpost is to block Trump from being on the ballot in November. In your head, the case cannot be moot, and like so many other liberals must doublethink through not just that, but simply admitting the goalpost is to block Trump from ballot access is also admitting the case is a political question (and therefore, not justiciable anyways).

And you've come to the conclusion the unelected branch of federal government apparently should have single-handedly enacted an ex post facto law by allowing Trump to be tried as the private citizen he is now for acts committed while he was president, negating the entire impeachment process as enumerated in the Constitution, while simultaneously magicking for itself into existence some method for enforcing its own ruling without interference from either legislative or executive branches. You know, "to save democracy".

But I shouldn't be surprised. It's hardly the first time you've demonstrated a poor understanding of jurisprudence and mootness on these very forums.

Morons (Trump included) rioting does not a coup make.

That said, Reagan did that, just not here. I already mentioned Grenada and Nicaragua.
 
Last edited:

Hades

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2013
2,175
1,614
118
Country
The Netherlands
We've already discussed half you list in the last 48 hours. The "project 2025 guy" did not promise to inflict bloodshed to start.
Sure as long as his victims just rolled over THEN he didn't have to go do bloodshed.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,085
6,327
118
You are going about this backwards, as a matter of law we do not consider category by category who is allowed to be killed. Rather, we start with "nobody is allowed to be killed" and make exceptions. Combatants in war, sentenced convicts, or people who present immediate direct physical threat to the life of another are carved out as specific exceptions to the broad illegality of killing. There need not be a specific precedent to say ordering the killing of a political rival is illegal, rather the onus on you would be to explain what exception found in the written law or legal precedent would apply in that scenario.
It doesn't matter which direction you tackle it from, the answer is in the middle.

There is a principle that you can do anything as long as the law doesn't stop you. Unless there's a law specifically stating a person cannot do something, then they very possibly can. At the point you are appealing to nebulous Constitutional "right to life" or "cruel and unusual punishment" etc., you're not necessarily falling back on very much. Consider all the other contrary legal principles that a judge might consider, not least because there are precedents (aforementioned) which clearly enable the president to have people killed.

To be fair, I severely doubt a US president is going to have a political opponent murdered any time soon. But these sorts of extremes do form interesting thought experiments, because they direct attention to things we need to consider. If we cannot be sure that the law prevents the president having someone killed for their own convenience, what else can we not be sure that the law prevents? And how might these be exploited by an amoral president?

I'm not terribly worried, as most people or groups trying to discuss "democratic backsliding" tend to consider anything on the right inherent attacks on democracy even if the left has done the same thing for decades. Like, oh no, people with ties to the government own most of the media in Hungary, I can hardly imagine living in such a hellscape...
I can only assume that you know very little about what's been happening in Hungary. Or that you're about to launch into a campaign of waffle and bluster because you want to excuse the Republicans after they unwisely decided to fete Viktor Orban.