National Guard called into Minneapolis

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crimson5pheonix

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Is it though.

I mean why would the one dude drop and follow him down behind the speaker after he fell like that?
Because he was trying to get the preacher off stage, which is what you recommended, and the preacher went to the ground when people started to grab him. You can see it in the video.

I think I've seen that video actually.

The officers did tase him as he was running away but it didn't stop him (Some people are far less effected by tasers than other) and seemingly turned and pointed the taser he'd stolen at the police officer.
That's what people are saying. I don't think it requires lethal force back, but this is America.
 

Eacaraxe

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In the USA sometimes it seems like the logic is that shooting dead a person in self defence who so much as touches you is okay, a touch being assault. I think we're seeing the fruits of the countries constant courting of violence.
Do bear in mind the US is apparently a country that struggles with the idea the castle doctrine applies to plainclothes officers executing a no-knock raid in the dead of night at not just the wrong house, but the wrong part of town, when the suspect in question had already been apprehended.

I mean that's what this will end up being.If the Police get abolished you'll have Blackwater security selling protection services to people and then you've replace the Police with a private company who is not bound to protect the constitutional rights of people (they'd be private security after all) and you've replaced one lot of police not deemed accountable enough with new ones who are almost entirely unaccountable lol.
You say that as if that isn't already the status quo for the ultra wealthy and major corporations, and this is tradition dating back to the days of the Pinkertons. Or that in the case of many major cities, most notably NYC, contemporary police departments were largely legitimized street gangs.
 

lil devils x

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Look. The left is out in the streets protesting for what amounts to smaller government, and Democrats are trying to sell the literal opposite in terms of policy and expecting the left to eat it hook, line, and sinker. Meanwhile the right is fighting tooth and nail to preserve the one function of government they think shouldn't exist, because people oughtn't rely on the government and instead be armed and able to protect themselves, while the literal reason the US has a Second (and Third, but whatevs) Amendment in the first damned place happened two weeks ago.

At this point if John C. Calhoun rose from his grave and started quoting Malcolm X, I'd just shrug and say, "well that figures".
Considering those that are protesting are ALSO calling for Universal Healthcare, paid sick leave, and all the benefits that usually only the " white privileged elite" receive, but instead to have those benefits provided to the general public by the government, claiming they want smaller government is somewhat disingenuous. " defunding or disbanding" the current police structure does not mean they want rampant crime, they just want them to change how they do these things due to how badly the current system is broken. Police are supposed to be a part of the community, to " serve and protect", it should NOT be their job to use violence against their community at will, the "us vs them" mindset has broken the system so badly, in many areas it does need to start over because they cannot protect the community if they are the ones harming the people. Every single person I grew up with that chose to become a cop was a criminal, the job sucks, the pay sucks, who else would want to be a cop? It is a terrible job that you cannot even afford to survive on the pay in many areas. We literally have the criminals with a license to kill and nothing is being done to really change it. Some of the ideas I have heard thus far, is change how Police in the US work, by having only specialized units armed as some other nations do, and most of the police that people interact with would not be armed, use social workers instead of police to deal with the homeless, have their primary training focused on deescalation rather than shooting. They are actually calling for expanding the government's role by different means, rather than actually reducing the size of the government. They want to change the way it works instead of having violent law enforcers do all of these things that really should be done by other services. Not wanting the violent police attacking them for existing isn't really calling for smaller government, they just want alternative solutions to the problem because the current police system is causing more problems than it solves.
 

Agema

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Boxers (anybody really) can knock someone out with a precise tap to a certain spot on the head. The trick is to rotate a person's skull in such a way that their brain bounces around inside. it doesn't have to involve bruises or black eyes, or even any mark at all. The absence of those things don't mean he wasn't knocked out.

Furthermore, that's not the only way to make someone lose consciousness. He could have been choked or strangled, which also doesn't necessarily leave marks.

Do we see the full confrontation, from the moment he gets assaulted by the mob to the moment he is picked up off the street and dragged away? Clearly we don't. Clearly there are gaps in the footage, during which he could have been knocked out.
At base, this guy deserves some right to be taken seriously because we should be receptive to claims of being assaulted.

On the other hand the claim is that he was beaten unconscious, but there are no marks suggestive of that, and a video of a substantial part of the incident that does not validate his claim. At the point you start arguing "that part of the assault happened to be off-video", "it was was one of those lucky blows that knocks someone unconscious without a mark" or "you can choke someone unconscious without a mark", you're clearly reaching at the unlikelier end of explanations. Whilst plausible, such arguments have relatively little impact on the available balance of evidence, and very weak at swaying opinion.

I'd be fairly receptive to the idea that in the tussle he received a blow (accidental or otherwise) that stunned him for short while. But that's really not the same thing as we imagine when we hear the term "beaten unconscious": that brings to mind a determined, deliberate pummelling. Given no marks suggestive of that, and no video corroboration it occurred, I think the balance of evidence would suggest "beaten unconscious" to be at best an exaggeration.
 

Eacaraxe

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Wall text.
Yeah, actually it would be smaller government (hint, just like universal health care -- you think insurers and health care providers aren't out to protect their extensive laundry list of tax breaks, subsidies, and government protections brought to us and protected by a labyrinthine semi-formal institution of lobbies, think tanks, and donor networks?). Because expanding and strengthening social programs that already exist in order to solve for causative factors in social unrest, rather than nominally solve for symptoms through an expansive, draconian, bureaucratic, ineffective, and atavistic criminal justice system which has been completely subverted by municipal governments and the prison-industrial complex to serve profit motive, would be an overall net reduction in governmental footprint.
 

Silvanus

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No people won't become political extremist but you can be sure plenty of people if told to march will march when the threat of not marching could be most of their livelihood. That's the thing few may actually believe the ideology and be fully in it but plenty of people will follow along and be silent because to no be silent will put them at risk.

Hell you don't even need risk just look at the Asch conformity experiments in psychology.
I fail to see the point being made here. Neither tstorm823 nor me were talking about any marches.

We were talking about the polarising effect of censorious language, and whether it alone turns somebody to the opposite extreme.

probably trying to ban sex workers and porn still is there's many left.
No, you're describing the work of a particular subset of feminists. "Suffragette" refers specifically to the struggle for suffrage.
 

Buyetyen

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Judge Dredd is also a better trained, better behaved and more moral police officer than many of the ones in real life who commit atrocities like the George Floyd murder. Like Judge Dredd without the broad remit that Mega City One allows, would be a better class of cop than America is currently enjoying.
Didn't Dredd have to spend like 15 years in the academy studying policing, detective work, criminal justice and the law in general? The cops in the US only have like 15 weeks.

YOU ALL REALIZE THIS IS THE PIZZAGATE GUY RIGHT??? WE ARE RELYING ON THE JOURNALISM OF MR PIZZAGATE???
Hard to go bankrupt telling conspiracy theorists what they want to hear. Although it can be difficult to tell: do they actually believe that these proven frauds and grifters still have credibility or do they know it's bullshit and just want to waste your time so you can't talk about anything real?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I think the situation with the street preacher getting beaten unconscious strong armed off-stage is probably the most succinct "no, not like that" I've ever seen. Then again, I've got so little regard for those heretics that I *wish* there was video of him taking a couple shots. The fact that OANN and Mr Pizzagate aren't showing that video 24/7 basically proves preacher dude wasn't beaten at any point.

As far as the rapidly developing situation in Atlanta goes...I just can't muster up any energy about a Wendy's burning down under any circumstances as long as nobody was hurt in the process. Cops had the drunk guy's car, let him run. They could use the lost taser to justify buying another few grenade launchers
 

ObsidianJones

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Once again, renouncing the violence, arson, and the like.

I do find something curious, though. And we are going to talk about the Preacher.

I'm going to say everything is true. Yes, he was beaten unconscious. Everything happened the way he said. As a human being hearing about another human being suffering, it fills me with bile and anger to see something like that.

In this situation, I'm wondering what the end game here is bringing this up.

Because if we're trying to say that one action of impropriety discredits a movement entire, then we could have thrown a dart at a list of the thousands of cases of impropriety at the hands of the police and disbanded the whole thing.

No? That's not the case? We have the looting, fires, and violence? Completely get that. So, I'll take a look at the whole Police Violation coffer and I can find... Sexual misconduct, false arrests for quota and lulz, being on the take, violence of course, habitual harassment, selling drugs they seize, connections to organized crime... Damn, there's a lot to match here.

Not everyone rioting is a saint. Yeah, I get it. It's a riot. If protests were enough to be listened to, we wouldn't have had to have a riot. But now people have reached their breaking point. Not only did Covid hit the community worse than any other, but so did unemployment and sanctions. And adding Arbery, Taylor, and countless others that weren't named, it all set off.

And just as Seanchaidh pointed out, if you trust a criminal organization to say who the actual criminals are... and then you believe them? You have no idea of what's actually happening in the world. I do not say all black people are innocent. There are of course black people who commits crime. But the same as any criminally oppressed group. And the millions of dollars being put into place to police them would be better spent being put into place funding education, job reforms, and opportunities to get out of the oppression.

Then this country can turn its sights to the Native Americans who have suffered every moment since this place was deemed 'America'. The Latinos who just came here for a better life who have been fought against in every way, shape and form. The Asians who have been denied the ability to earn because Coronavirus was called the Chinese virus and people don't do enough research to understand it wouldn't spontaneously come out of anyone who looks asian.

Just... everyone stop being jerks and start being human. You know how you would react if people didn't treat you like a fellow human being. Don't deny the rage you would feel for others who are actually going through that now.
 

tstorm823

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In this situation, I'm wondering what the end game here is bringing this up.

Because if we're trying to say that one action of impropriety discredits a movement entire, then we could have thrown a dart at a list of the thousands of cases of impropriety at the hands of the police and disbanded the whole thing.
The difference is that the people trying to make an autonomous zone without policing or authority are convinced it will just be naturally peaceful. People who support the police do so with the understanding that we live in a world full of fallen people and there will always be violence. Acts of violence do not discredit the perspective of those who sees violence as inevitable and sanctioned force a necessary evil. It does, however, discredit the perspective of people who believe they can create a bubble of peace just by clearing out the civil authority.

As far as the endgame of bringing it up, that shouldn't have any impact on the protests at large. This is once again another line to draw between those protesting police brutality and the political extremists trying to cynically take advantage of the current atmosphere. Like, apparently it's not CHAZ anymore, now it's CHOP, it's now an occupied protest instead of an autonomous zone. I suspect those protesting for reform realized the fringe they were were getting mixed into was at best a distraction from their cause and went "oh... well screw that."
 

Seanchaidh

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Welcome to short term solutions that cause long term problems.
It's a knee jerk reaction the thing is you burn more stuff and companies can and will pull out. I mean if you're seriously going to take it out on random businesses about. Also that puts rates up for all the area in terms of insurance as it's now seen as a risk zone even if the companies have inssurance.
What if we didn't rely on the permission of a small class of private owners to allow people to perform productive labor? In any case, it is silly to weigh business insurance rates against the continued violence and murders perpetrated by the state.
 
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Trunkage

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Yeah, actually it would be smaller government (hint, just like universal health care -- you think insurers and health care providers aren't out to protect their extensive laundry list of tax breaks, subsidies, and government protections brought to us and protected by a labyrinthine semi-formal institution of lobbies, think tanks, and donor networks?). Because expanding and strengthening social programs that already exist in order to solve for causative factors in social unrest, rather than nominally solve for symptoms through an expansive, draconian, bureaucratic, ineffective, and atavistic criminal justice system which has been completely subverted by municipal governments and the prison-industrial complex to serve profit motive, would be an overall net reduction in governmental footprint.
I find it silly that the Left doesn't promote Universal Health Care as smaller government or at least calling it streamlining. The Left has a real PR problem: Black Lives Matters motto gives White Supremacist fuel to burn their fires. Defund the Police lacks any nuance to the good ideas it holds. Feminism was about females only, but now that it has moved to a broader base, it hasn't really transformed it name to suit the time.

Took the weekend off from all this. Needed a break. You guys gave me 5 pages to read. Nice work, it feels like this place is like the good old days
 

Buyetyen

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I find it silly that the Left doesn't promote Universal Health Care as smaller government or at least calling it streamlining. The Left has a real PR problem: Black Lives Matters motto gives White Supremacist fuel to burn their fires. Defund the Police lacks any nuance to the good ideas it holds. Feminism was about females only, but now that it has moved to a broader base, it hasn't really transformed it name to suit the time.

Took the weekend off from all this. Needed a break. You guys gave me 5 pages to read. Nice work, it feels like this place is like the good old days
Not strictly disagreeing, I just want to add that if someone is so determined to find grievance with a good idea that they reject it entirely on the name, it's worth considering that the person was never going to be persuaded in the first place. My consistent experience has been that the kind of person who feels personally offended by Black Lives Matter because it's not also including them as a white person in their cause and thus rejects all calls for criminal justice reform out of spite is already too far up their own ass to consider new thinking.

The Republicans have better marketing, granted, but I feel like that's a byproduct of all their ideas being shitty.
 

Eacaraxe

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I find it silly that the Left doesn't promote Universal Health Care as smaller government or at least calling it streamlining.
We do. The problem is...

The Left has a real PR problem...
The left doesn't have a PR problem, the PR has a right problem.

Over 90% of media consumed by Americans is owned or controlled by AT&T, Comcast, Disney, and National Amusements (the company that ultimately owns both Viacom and CBS -- that was the case before, during, and after the split). NewsCorp or whatever it's called now isn't even on the map any more, or remotely close to being on the map, since the divestiture of 21st Century Fox's entertainment holdings to Disney. You might notice half those corporations are tier 1 ISP's; one of them is quite literally Ma Bell reborn, except bigger, more expansive, and exponentially more influential. That last less-than-10% are smaller outlets of varying levels of consolidation, and most of those are privately-owned or privately-traded between about a dozen billionaires, such as Bezos' ownership of WashPo.

Then you have the FANG's, and while their scope and scale of internet content provision -- and anti-competitive behavior -- is equivalent to the big four's consolidation of all mass media, they're limited only to internet content provision and are at best considered a second-order media cartel.

Each and every last one of those corporations are accountable only to one party -- shareholders. And they're driven exclusively by profit motive, not an obligation to inform the public. To accurately and honestly report news, let alone impartially and especially when representing policy positions held by the left, would go against these for-profit corporations' vested financial interest and that will never happen willingly.

Wanna know why the leftiest of lefty leftist televised media outlets, MSNBC, has such a pro-establishment Democratic bias? Don't watch the actual broadcast content, watch the ad breaks -- the companies buying the ad space are the ones to whom MSNBC has a vested financial interest. You're going to tell me a cable news channel that can be relied upon to have a pharmaceutical, insurance, or health care advertisement in each and every commercial break, 24/7, can be trusted to report accurately on M4A? "Left" my ass, it's neoliberal kayfabe; the American public is being sold the illusion of a contentious, bipartisan state.
 

Gordon_4

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Didn't Dredd have to spend like 15 years in the academy studying policing, detective work, criminal justice and the law in general? The cops in the US only have like 15 weeks.
I just looked up the training time for the police forces in Australia realising I had no idea how long their training is.

AFP: 24 weeks
NSW: 32 weeks
VIC: 31 weeks
SA: 27 weeks
WA: 28 weeks
NT: 30 weeks
QLD: not listed, but I’d presume its in line with the other states.
 

Revnak

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The NYPD are openly threatening the Mayor and his family, there are lynchings going on in California that are just being labeled suicides with zero investigation, police departments across the country are banning the use of tear gas then immediately using it anyway (often expired tear gas), the police union in Minneapolis plans to try to get the four disbarred officers rehired, officers across the country are showing solidarity with their fellow class traitors by quitting en masse as soon as any “bad apples” get punished for assault, our first amendment is being trampled on as press are targeted by police for assault and arrest, AND WE SPENT PAGES ARGUING ABOUT A REPORT FROM THE PIZZAGATE GUY ABOUT HOW A SINGLE RAVING STREET PREACHER MAY HAVE BEEN ASSAULTED. White people just want their excuse to not care. Their moral fable that all this anger is misplaced and everyone just needs to be as sterile as them. Well, I’ve no desire to teach anyone to distance themselves from their own illusions, I’m not your psychiatrist. Some day they will come for you, and then you’ll get your easily forgotten moral message, perhaps you’ll have the old poem written on your gravestone. But if it is a lesson you’d rather not learn too late, maybe stop LISTENING TO THE PIZZAGATE GUY and stand with the oppressed rather than their oppressors.
 
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