Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Schadrach]

It doesn't matter what the state calls a medical emergency. The law is dependent on the practitioner's belief there is a medical emergency.

Of course it matters what the state considers a medical emergency. Do you think that their going to go to arrest a doctor for it and he's just going to go "I felt it was a medical emergency" and their going to just drop it on the spot? You don't think the possibility of it going to court exists, and you don't think in that case the court is going to evaluate whether or not the circumstances *really* were a medical emergency?

You are finding stories of pregnant women dying and blaming on a "chilling effect" from the literally no arrests of doctors performing abortions.

Have you considered that that might be because the doctors in question are refusing to do them out of fear of being arrested for doing so?

 

[tstorm823]

Of course it matters what the state considers a medical emergency. Do you think that their going to go to arrest a doctor for it and he's just going to go "I felt it was a medical emergency" and their going to just drop it on the spot? You don't think the possibility of it going to court exists, and you don't think in that case the court is going to evaluate whether or not the circumstances *really* were a medical emergency?

The state didn't define what the emergency is, and deferred to the doctors' judgment. It would come up in court, what really is a "medical emergency", but only in as far as answering whether the doctor actually believed there was one. If they performed an abortion at the patient's request without any immediate medical issues around it and the doctor claimed they believed there was a medical emergency, that probably wouldn't save them, cause it'd be patently obvious they were lying about that belief. If you can convince the judge and jury that there was a medical emergency, the state has no standing in the law as written to define what does or doesn't count.

Have you considered that that might be because the doctors in question are refusing to do them out of fear of being arrested for doing so?

No, because there are still medically justified procedures terminating pregnancies in Texas, and nobody has been prosecuted over them. There is no rational, informed fear of arrest for intervening to save the mother. Anyone who says they are afraid of doing so is either misinformed (because people of your persuasion find the misinformation expedient) or lying about it.

 

[Schadrach]

without any immediate medical issues around it and the doctor claimed they believed there was a medical emergency, that probably wouldn't save them, cause it'd be patently obvious they were lying about that belief.

So, for example, a heightened risk of developing a serious medical condition that is not currently presenting - would that be "medical emergency" enough to justify it? Because in the cases where a prolonged miscarriage develops sepsis, they don't already have sepsis when the abortion is refused but they're subject to a heightened risk of developing it as a consequence of not performing the abortion.

If that flies (if a heightened risk of developing a complication is sufficient), why wouldn't performing literally any elective abortion since pregnancy in general makes you a heightened risk of developing several dangerous or potentially lethal conditions? Either the ban does nothing, or it requires doctors to be able to prove there was a medical emergency to a court's satisfaction whenever they perform an abortion and prosecutors are feeling frisky.

 

[tstorm823]

Either the ban does nothing, or it requires doctors to be able to prove there was a medical emergency to a court's satisfaction whenever they perform an abortion and prosecutors are feeling frisky.

This is not true. Most people, most doctors, want to follow the law in spirit even if they know it is easily circumvented. No law, no matter how clear, strict, or enforceable, can cleanly cover all scenarios nor be expected to catch, punish, or prevent all violations. There is always a combination of the law being enforced and people just getting away with things. That does not make laws pointless. They are a clear indication of expectations for law-abiding people, and they are a tool against those who most flagrantly violate it. If someone is ever prosecuted from this law, I guarantee it will not be someone who was trying to do the right thing for an individual woman's health, but rather the person who says "pregnancy is a medical emergency" and starts performing elective abortions. This is one of the beautiful things of a jury system, because a million pages of legalese would never close every loophole without punishing unintended targets, but a panel of regular people can tell when you're not even trying to follow the law.

 

[Silvanus]

This is not true. Most people, most doctors, want to follow the law in spirit even if they know it is easily circumvented. No law, no matter how clear, strict, or enforceable, can cleanly cover all scenarios nor be expected to catch, punish, or prevent all violations. There is always a combination of the law being enforced and people just getting away with things. That does not make laws pointless. They are a clear indication of expectations for law-abiding people, and they are a tool against those who most flagrantly violate it. If someone is ever prosecuted from this law, I guarantee it will not be someone who was trying to do the right thing for an individual woman's health, but rather the person who says "pregnancy is a medical emergency" and starts performing elective abortions. This is one of the beautiful things of a jury system, because a million pages of legalese would never close every loophole without punishing unintended targets, but a panel of regular people can tell when you're not even trying to follow the law.

We already discussed Kate Cox's situation a number of months ago. Texan woman, whose pregnancy exhibited Trisomy 18, making its survival unlikely and threatening Cox's own health. AG Ken Paxton threatened to sue any doctor who performed the surgery.

So those doctors weren't able to just follow their own best judgement for the health of the mother, were they?

 

[Gergar12]

SpaceX what?

We can't even go to the Moon in any regular fashion yet, and we first set foot there 5 decades ago. What makes anyone think we have a future in space beyond satellites and probes?

We are humans; we will find a way. Plus, there are resources in the asteroid belt.

 

[Silvanus]

We are humans; we will find a way. Plus, there are resources in the asteroid belt.

The asteroid belt! Why didn't we think of that? Just pop over to the asteroid belt, pick up some rare elements, back in a jiffy. 20 mins tops.

 

[Gergar12]

Is not going to get anyone into space in any meaningful manner. A small selection of scientists doing scientist things? Sure.

The common man like you and me? No chance.

A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.

 

[Gergar12]

The asteroid belt! Why didn't we think of that? Just pop over to the asteroid belt, pick up some rare elements, back in a jiffy. 20 mins tops.

Space manufacturing.

 

[Casual Shinji]

We are humans; we will find a way. Plus, there are resources in the asteroid belt.

Elon Musk has some androids and hyperloops to sell you.

 

[Gergar12]

Elon Musk has some androids and hyperloops to sell you.

His SpaceX rockets are pretty good, and Starlink is pretty good too. Tesla Model 3s, and Ys are pretty cool too.

 

[tstorm823]

We already discussed Kate Cox's situation a number of months ago. Texan woman, whose pregnancy exhibited Trisomy 18, making its survival unlikely and threatening Cox's own health. AG Ken Paxton threatened to sue any doctor who performed the surgery.

So those doctors weren't able to just follow their own best judgement for the health of the mother, were they?

They were not sued. She left the state and had an abortion before the petition was ruled on. The chances of survival with trisomy 18 are higher than the risk to her, and the precedent of genetically testing fetuses for who to cull is disturbing at best.

 

[Silvanus]

They were not sued. She left the state and had an abortion before the petition was ruled on.

They were explicitly threatened with legal action by the AG. The reason they weren't sued is that they didn't perform the procedure in Texas, because they had been directly told they'd be sued if they did.

The chances of survival with trisomy 18 are higher than the risk to her, and the precedent of genetically testing fetuses for who to cull is disturbing at best.

So, you're already retreating from the "it's just up to the doctors" position, then.

 

[tstorm823]

So, you're already retreating from the "it's just up to the doctors" position, then.

It's amazing that I didn't say "it's just up to the doctors". It's their belief in a medical emergency justifying exception. That's what the law says.

 

[Silvanus]

It's amazing that I didn't say "it's just up to the doctors". It's their belief in a medical emergency justifying exception. That's what the law says.

And now you've been presented with a grey area, and suddenly the doctor's judgement is no shield against being sued.

This is precisely how chilling effects of legislation work. Actions like those of AG Paxton are why doctors practice 'defensive medication', and fear ruin for doing their jobs.

 

[Thaluikhain]

A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.

The old men with the money are noticeable uninterested in trees and other living things.

 

[tstorm823]

And now you've been presented with a grey area, and suddenly the doctor's judgement is no shield against being sued.

They also can't perform abortions based on the mother's favorite breakfast cereal, Silvanus. The difference between "a doctor's belief" and "a doctor's belief there is a medical emergency" is not that difficult a distinction for an intelligent person. It's not that gray. The girl who died from lack of treatment went to the hospital bloody from an ongoing miscarriage. Kate Cox was experiencing an average pregnancy that happened to have a genetic defect.

 

[Trunkage]

They also can't perform abortions based on the mother's favorite breakfast cereal, Silvanus. The difference between "a doctor's belief" and "a doctor's belief there is a medical emergency" is not that difficult a distinction for an intelligent person. It's not that gray. The girl who died from lack of treatment went to the hospital bloody from an ongoing miscarriage. Kate Cox was experiencing an average pregnancy that happened to have a genetic defect.

Man, you're talking about politicians. They didn't get there due to their intelligence. They got there due to their ability to manipulate the public to believe what they do. If they weren't involved that would be one thing. But they are

 

[Silvanus]

They also can't perform abortions based on the mother's favorite breakfast cereal, Silvanus. The difference between "a doctor's belief" and "a doctor's belief there is a medical emergency" is not that difficult a distinction for an intelligent person. It's not that gray. The girl who died from lack of treatment went to the hospital bloody from an ongoing miscarriage. Kate Cox was experiencing an average pregnancy that happened to have a genetic defect.

A defect that makes survival unlikely for the child, and seriously threatens the health of the mother. It was not an average pregnancy. You are making it abundantly clear that you don't believe doctors should be able to decide what constitutes an emergency.

 

[Satinavian]

Space manufacturing.

Eventually yes, asteroid mining and space manifacturing will likely occur. But it is very much not in reach, not even remotely. It will take centuries to get there.

Also, no, this whole space mining and space manufacturing won't have humans in space. It will safe all the life support stuff, be able to accept higher risks and will run in a combination of remote and AI control for everything.


But as said, we are very much not there yet. We can send a probe to the asteroid belt, that's it. How much bigger and more expensive will a mining station be ? How does it get repaired without getting any external supplies ? How will it work ? What kind of materials can it even extract ? How exactly are we going to use those materials, which are in the asteroid belt near the mining station now ? Are we sending full assembly lines after the mining station ? Assembly lines for what exactly ?

It is not impossible to answer this stuff, but it really is a long time off. And no, SpaceX can't do it either. The only thing SpaceX can do is put stuff in the Earth orbit, slightly cheaper than before.