US 2024 Presidential Election

[tippy2k2]

You know you're typing this on a device that was most likely built through slave labor, right? Possibly even child slave labor. And I don't want to make any assumptions on your eating habits, but buy anything with chocolate and... yeah, slave labor. Coca Cola? Even with Harris (Biden) putting a stop to Israel's apartheid, America would still be running on a system of foreign agony. Could that be ignored in the face of a stop to the genocide, or should Democrats still not be voted for? Not to present this as somekind of apathic 'get over it', but if you're this staunch in not engaging with something due to the evil that's behind it, you're really not going to be left with much to engage with in modern society at all.

And also, the people who voted Democrats were most certainly doing so because of an evil that would effect them. The evil that's on their doorstep right now.

 

[tippy2k2]

Now, I'd say Biden did on those things (in small part, and didn't follow through).

But I distinctly remember during the campaign, before he became President and backtracked, the same voices were saying Biden was lying, a centrist or right-wing stooge etc, running solely on being not-Trump. This narrative about his campaign being positive only for him to backtrack afterwards is retrospective.

I think Harris' campaign was quite shite. And I think there wasn't much substantive difference between hers and Biden's: both were conciliatory centre-right milquetoast campaigns with a few mildly centre-left policies peppered in. It's just that when something is successful, like Biden's, people want their own priorities to take credit; and when something is unsuccessful, even if it shares the same DNA, they want to pretend it was an entirely different animal.

That's because people like me who pay attention to Democrats lying through their teeth when they promise left wing shit are the ones reminding everyone that when they promise the left wing shit, they're almost always lying. But lying works as most normal voters who pay attention to politics once every four years buys it hook line and sinker and so Democrats get voted in. If that's the only thing Democrats want, I don't get why they don't just keep lying through their teeth about doing cool left wing shit. I suppose maybe they're worried if they do that every election, eventually everyone else will see through their bullshit too.

For a fun change of pace though, maybe Democrats should actually DO the cool left wing shit they say they want to do. The fucks talk a HUGE game about all the cool left wing shit they want to do if only they were in power and then never say another word about it once they get into power. Maybe if they actually DID the cool shit they always promise, the average voter wouldn't bounce back and forth between Democrats and Republicans.

 

[Casual Shinji]

View attachment 12218

You improved society, did you now? Guess what has now seriously lost steam on the global stage due to Trump's win and America going Christo-fascist, certainly not the protest of the palestinian genocide I'm sure?

That strip makes no sense in the context of what I posted. Ironically you decided to opt out and not improve society somewhat for your own sense of self-rightousness. Hey, if it's really just against your principles, and that's that, sure, but don't kid yourself about what you actually did to help the palestians or improve society somewhat by not voting Democrat - Nothing.

 

[tstorm823]

One of the strongest sign someone voted republican is low education, that's pretty telling. The world is slowly going toward being more meritocratic, that means everyone who neither work hard nor have any kind of natural talent or education to compensate is left behind.

It may be true that the world is increasingly meritocratic, but that would only serve to explain why so many degreed individuals are being left behind, since the vast majority of those degree holders voting for Democrats are getting educated in information that is somewhere in the realm of completely useless. Credentialism is dying, you're going to have to find a better measure than "education".

 

[tippy2k2]

You improved society, did you now? Guess what has now seriously lost steam on the global stage due to Trump's win and America going Christo-fascist, certainly not the protest of the palestinian genocide I'm sure?

That strip makes no sense in the context of what I posted. Ironically you decided to opt out and not improve society somewhat for your own sense of self-rightousness. Hey, if it's really just against your principles, and that's that, sure, but don't kid yourself about what you actually did to help the palestians or improve society somewhat by not voting Democrat - Nothing.

Do you dorks just not read my posts? You just have a strawman Tippy built up and you wait for me to talk before you say whatever it is you think I believe?

I have been VERY consistent in this thread and in my beliefs. I do not think The Democrats are going to change. I think they're going to remain shit no matter what I do. I'd love to be wrong and I will continue to advocate for them to pull their heads out of their asses because this country is so in love with The Two Party system that it seems like it'll be the only way to potentially fix things but I don't expect it to happen.

I am voting AGAINST evil. BOTH of the parties are evil. I'm not voting against them because I want to teach them a lesson or because I expect it to actually work and a third party will win or because I expect my stupid little protest vote for overthrow Capitalism and change society for the best. I vote the way I vote because I will not validate EVIL by voting for it. One side being less evil doesn't make it good.

You guys keep bringing up this weird ass argument that I have never made that I think my vote for a third party is for any other reason besides me voting for my principles. And hell, I had said way back in this thread that if Harris made the concession to stop funding the damn Genocide, even I'd have been willing to throw my principles away and vote for her. But she couldn't even do a compromise to the compromise (because except in this extreme situation, I'd never vote Democrat for President). I'd have felt dirty as hell but I'd have voted for her if she stopped the Evil from happening. But that was still somehow too extreme of an ask.

We warned you all before the election this would happen. We warned you while the election was happening that this would happen. We are STILL trying to warn you that this will continue to happen as long as The Democrats continue down this path. We keep being proven right yet somehow you all keep deciding that shooting the messenger is the fix rather than taking any kind of heed to our warning. Ignore us at your own peril with the "Bu..Bu..Bu..But Trump!" bullshit.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Hell, even watching you giggle at that Simpsons reference from @hanselthecaretaker2 like you haven't been doing literally the exact same is buck wild.

Where was this? I haven’t had time to keep up with much here.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Do you dorks just not read my posts? You just have a strawman Tippy built up and you wait for me to talk before you say whatever it is you think I believe?

I have been VERY consistent in this thread and in my beliefs. I do not think The Democrats are going to change. I think they're going to remain shit no matter what I do. I'd love to be wrong and I will continue to advocate for them to pull their heads out of their asses because this country is so in love with The Two Party system that it seems like it'll be the only way to potentially fix things but I don't expect it to happen.

I am voting AGAINST evil. BOTH of the parties are evil. I'm not voting against them because I want to teach them a lesson or because I expect it to actually work and a third party will win or because I expect my stupid little protest vote for overthrow Capitalism and change society for the best. I vote the way I vote because I will not validate EVIL by voting for it. One side being less evil doesn't make it good.

You guys keep bringing up this weird ass argument that I have never made that I think my vote for a third party is for any other reason besides me voting for my principles. And hell, I had said way back in this thread that if Harris made the concession to stop funding the damn Genocide, even I'd have been willing to throw my principles away and vote for her. But she couldn't even do a compromise to the compromise (because except in this extreme situation, I'd never vote Democrat for President). I'd have felt dirty as hell but I'd have voted for her if she stopped the Evil from happening. But that was still somehow too extreme of an ask.

We warned you all before the election this would happen. We warned you while the election was happening that this would happen. We are STILL trying to warn you that this will continue to happen as long as The Democrats continue down this path. We keep being proven right yet somehow you all keep deciding that shooting the messenger is the fix rather than taking any kind of heed to our warning. Ignore us at your own peril with the "Bu..Bu..Bu..But Trump!" bullshit.

So you did do it out of principle. Fine, but then don't drag this strip in here acting as if I was saying 'well, all of society is evil so why bother doing anything', because that's not what I said. And don't act like the people who voted Democrat actively voted for a genocide to continue. Nobody who voted had any power to stop that. What they did have power over was stopping a fascist from rising to power.

 

[Silvanus]

That's because people like me who pay attention to Democrats lying through their teeth when they promise left wing shit are the ones reminding everyone that when they promise the left wing shit, they're almost always lying.

Maybe. But I remember plenty of criticism of the campaign itself being ghoulishly right-wing, appealing only to right wingers, etc. Pretty much the same critiques now for Harris. But when the campaign succeeds, the narrative about the campaign shifts in retrospect to vindicate whoever.

You guys keep bringing up this weird ass argument that I have never made that I think my vote for a third party is for any other reason besides me voting for my principles.

I mean, I said directly that I considered the choice to vote Stein to be rational and principled. The response i got was along the lines that I'm the filthy scum of the earth. There isn't an enormous degree of reciprocal consideration here on either side of that tactical/principled debate.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I read that and my heart rate actually shot up. I'm so sorry. My only hope is that you're more successful at averting that fall than I am. After it became clear they weren't going to listen to me, the only idea I had was getting my parents box sets of old TV shows in the vain attempt to give them something else to occupy their time, with obvious results (Columbo is amazing though)

For a brief and shining moment, they actually read Common Dreams for a bit and were getting pulled in by it. But that dream died.

Again though, why go and ream the Democrats for chasing voters who will ultimately vote for Trump and then turn around and expect them to cater to voters who ultimately voted for Trump? Because the latter group did so ironically?

Because I don't really think there was a sudden millions strong left that just went for Trump out of spite. I can tell myself that, but I suspect most either stayed home or did vote Kamala. But that would mean Trump's numbers are real and that's a worse thought.

Especially with this attitude of "well, they said this candidate was useless, so I better vote for Mr. Ethnic Cleanse". It's just as loathsomely contemptible here as it is when 'centrists' try to claim that shit when being called out for being a Nazi, and am also hoping that this isn't the case for most of the left either (I actually thought you had included the Greens when you brought this up earlier and it miffed me until I reread that you were talking about centrists) because the idea that they would intentionally nose dive the plane out of some wild belief that they'll be able to take control and pull out before dashing upon the rocks and leaving nothing but wreckage and bodies like some fucked up game of chicken hurts my heart. But then again, in addition to being Canadian, I'm also a worrier and a cynic.

Going into a nose dive and thinking you can save it at the last second is the quintessential Democrat experience. Maybe that's why they stay popular? People watch them skydive without a parachute, live life on the edge.

I know, and in fact was quite proud of my state when I saw that too, and another small mercy out of all of this is that another prop that we managed to resoundingly bury would have dropped tipped worker minimum wage from $11.35 to $10.77, while normal state minimum is $14.35. And then I saw that that county Recorder race was going bad to the tune of 10k votes or so at the time (and called at 82% of ballots with over 100k lead), and the worrier in me came out, because while we passed them, they still only exist in that theoretical gray area where they would still need to both be ratified and then actually codified into constitution, during which time that heap of shit will have power over our ballots and may they just pull some horse shit and try and throw out enough ballots to shift the whole thing, to say nothing of our state judiciary also trying something (fun/not-so-fun fact, one of those same justices I mentioned earlier has his wife as a senator in our state legislature. They both won their retention/reelection bids). But like I said, I'm a natural worrier and hopefully wrong.

Same thing with the Dems moving left. I would love nothing more than for them to embrace some real leftist ideals and platforms, but the worrier and cynic in me doesn't really see why, especially from a purely 'numbers as written down' way of trying to secure votes among votes cast. Stein, I will admit to not seeking out and looking for, and that's on me, but it's still weird to me that you have to rely on whether or not she is newsworthy like we aren't living in 2024. Like I said, the left is so starved that "weird" made waves, you're telling me the Greens can't organize some big online/viral campaign or that they need the same big money that the other parties operate at to compete? Again, maybe I'm just far to jaded, but it really does feel like the same crap hat keeps the big two parties orbiting shit mountain has the Greens to catch any errant gutter balls. And this is coming from someone who voted for her last time she ran in '16.

I'm going to keep banging the drum that historically going left (even with lies) is more electorally sound than pandering to the right. Pandering to the right never ever works, pundits repeat it because they're paid to, but we don't have to follow those rules.

And it was the pro-Green movement that did come up with the Genocide Joe meme, it did make waves, it was popular. But it's not a policy platform and it couldn't connect with the Greens in people's minds because the Greens don't pop up in people's minds. While money isn't everything in politics, there is a strong correlation between spending and success. At the very least, you need enough to put your face on TVs and voice on radios, if you can't do that, then the people who aren't terminally online like us will never know you.

I keep seeing this notion that the Democrats lost because they don't connect to the working class and the Republicans do. But how do the Republicans connect to the working class that isn't just lying and stoking up their racism? Do we need the Democrats to just start doing that, to lie and point fingers in order to get a leg in with the working class? It reminds me of how people keep saying that the Left needs its Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, and Ben Shapiro; people who misinform, provide easy answers, and in the worst case call for violence against margilized communities. For what other reason are these guys popular - for "telling it how it is"? At what point did we start taking the onus off of the people who choose to listen to this shit, who choose to vote for hate?

The Democrats are fuck-ups, but no amount of fucking up could drive this many people to embracing fascism unless deep down they just want it, unless deep down they are just racist and hateful. These are people who just now knowingly threw their own daughters, sisters, mothers, and wives under the bus, and it's because the Democrats didn't have a clear enough policy!?

It's actually very simple, and hearing constant ranting from the MAGA part of the family will tell you. The right accurately describes the conditions and fears of people. They then go on to lie about the causes and solutions, but Dem messaging can't even grasp there is a problem to tackle.

Take inflation. "The rate of inflation is going back down"; a true statement. "Inflation has made my economic situation worse"; also a true statement, though the extent to which depends on the person. Dem messaging is to say that everything will be okay because they fixed inflation. This ignores the fact that inflation has already hit everyone and bringing down the rate of inflation does nothing to fix this. Either there would need to be deflation and bring prices back down in line with people's wages, or wages would have to rise across the board. Republican messaging acknowledges that people are still hurt by the inflation that's happened, but then blame it on nonsense. Doesn't matter though, Dems aren't offering a solution, they say they've already solved it even though they clearly haven't. Bam bang boom, people side with Reps. This pattern shows up reasonably often.

 

[tippy2k2]

Maybe. But I remember plenty of criticism of the campaign itself being ghoulishly right-wing, appealing only to right wingers, etc. Pretty much the same critiques now for Harris. But when the campaign succeeds, the narrative about the campaign shifts in retrospect to vindicate whoever.

I can't speak for all Lefties but for myself, it's because I don't believe a single thing they say when they promise all the cool Left Wing shit (because once they do get into power, we don't get any of the cool Left Wing shit they spent the entire time promising). So all that leaves is the not-cool Right Wing shit they also champion for.

But they're not trying to convince people like me who see through their bullshit, they're trying to convince the average voter and the average voter falls for that shit every single time because they want cool shit that will actually help them in a material way. Hence why they win when they promise the cool Left Wing shit (even if they don't actually mean it) and they lose when they don't.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

No, it's because the majority of white people voted for Trump. America is racist, Trump gave americans the permission to be their worst racist selves, and in a time of turmoil and economic struggle the majority reached for their racist comfy blanket.
Yes, because Trump is such an eloquent speaker who didn't bring out any famous or rich people to back him up, definitely not one of the richest guys on the fucking planet. Even if people supposedly "saw through" her, they still deliberately choose an unhinged facist over someone who is not.

He’s a blunt instrument, but can still speak his own mind without sounding like his brain is running on dial up with only a few key sentences stored in memory about how evil their opponent is. Regarding celebrities-

What We Learned About Celebrity Culture in the 2024 Election

Hollywood endorsements, once an essential part of a campaign playbook, may have backfired in this election.

www.nytimes.com

It’s unequivocally clear Harris had the biggest current names in pop culture behind her, yet it wasn’t enough. She also spent at one point spent three times as much as as Trump, while ultimately raising five times as much.

She clearly had powerful people in all corners pulling for her. She had the establishment behind her; powerful people in some cases with their own agendas and skeletons to hide. We’ve all heard everything that’s been thrown at Trump over the years, but there’s always at least two ways of looking at things, and failure to acknowledge more than one is partly what created him, as I’ve pointed out earlier, and also relevant is what Musk had to say recently.

They’ve pretty much had it out for him the second he had an R by his name. Hell even Oprah liked him in the nineties, back when he was more of a Democrat.

 

[thebobmaster]

He’s a blunt instrument, but can still speak his own mind without sounding like his brain is running on dial up with only a few key sentences stored in memory about how evil their opponent is. Regarding celebrities-

What We Learned About Celebrity Culture in the 2024 Election

Hollywood endorsements, once an essential part of a campaign playbook, may have backfired in this election.

www.nytimes.com

It’s unequivocally clear Harris had the biggest current names in pop culture behind her, yet it wasn’t enough. She also spent at one point spent three times as much as as Trump, while ultimately raising five times as much.

She clearly had powerful people in all corners pulling for her. She had the establishment behind her; powerful people in some cases with their own agendas and skeletons to hide. We’ve all heard everything that’s been thrown at Trump over the years, but there’s always at least two ways of looking at things, and failure to acknowledge more than one is partly what created him, as I’ve pointed out earlier, and also relevent is what Musk had to say recently.


Like I also said before, they’ve had it out for him the second he had an R by his name. Hell even Oprah liked him in the nineties, back when he was more of a Democrat.

The problem with this is that a lot of people who Trump has managed to get on his side to support him themselves tend to be not great people. For example, Tony Hinchcliffe and his rather infamous at this point "floating island of garbage" joke that got attributed to Trump. Is that fair? No, it isn't. But when you keep surrounding yourself with people who make comments like that, or "jokes" like that, people start noticing a common thread in what you seem to be OK with. It's also not like Trump himself is innocent of saying at the very least misguided things in the past. You act like everything is a witch hunt against Trump because of him being Republican...when he's also to date the only convicted felon to become President. That's not exactly a minor detail.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

the inherent value of serving your community regardless of what you receive in return

Arbeit macht frei, eh, Herr Tstorm?

Respect is not optional.

The party that made up stories of Haitian immigrants eating pets doesn't get to say shit about respect.

 

[tippy2k2]

So you did do it out of principle. Fine, but then don't drag this strip in here acting as if I was saying 'well, all of society is evil so why bother doing anything', because that's not what I said. And don't act like the people who voted Democrat actively voted for a genocide to continue. Nobody who voted had any power to stop that. What they did have power over was stopping a fascist from rising to power.

I wasn't going to bother continuing this asinine conversation as I'm sick of repeating myself but figured I should clarify my use of the Society Meme.

I have to have a phone. There is no getting around that. I have to have food, there is no getting around that. I have to shop at big chains, there is no getting around that. There is no ethical consumption under Capitalism (hence the meme). I can try to make choices to help alleviate the bad parts but this is stuff I NEED, not stuff I can choose not to do.

What I do have a choice on is whether I vote for a Pro-Genocide candidate or not. One being worse doesn't make the other one good and therefore I choose not to vote for either of them.

And again, Harris had every opportunity to get me to vote for her but every chance she had, she was on her knees with the entire shaft of Israel in her mouth. Even when she talked about how bad the genocide was and Israel needs to quit that shit, she still at least tickled their balls with talks about how Hamas raped and murdered everyone they could (despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel Hannibal Protocol'ed much of the civilian death and the IDF literally started a fucking riot over soldiers being punished for raping prisoners and the few Israeli hostages not blown up by The IDF saying they were treated well). Both big parties were in a sprint to prove how much they loved Israel so they can both go pound sand.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I have to have a phone. There is no getting around that. I have to have food, there is no getting around that. I have to shop at big chains, there is no getting around that. There is no ethical consumption under Capitalism (hence the meme). I can try to make choices to help alleviate those choices but this is stuff I NEED, not stuff I can choose not to do.

And you don't see how for certain groups in America there wasn't any getting around voting for Harris, considering that the alternative had already set up plans to persecute them to a far greater degree than they already were? A third party wasn't going to get anywhere, you know that. For the people in the crosshairs of conservatives it was either Harris or possible deportation, discrimination, or death.

And again, Harris had every opportunity to get me to vote for her but every chance she had, she was on her knees with the entire shaft of Israel in her mouth. Even when she talked about how bad the genocide was and Israel needs to quit that shit, she still at least tickled their balls with talks about how Hamas raped and murdered everyone they could (despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel Hannibal Protocol'ed much of the civilian death and the IDF literally started a fucking riot over soldiers being punished for raping prisoners and the few Israeli hostages not blown up by The IDF saying they were treated well). Both big parties were in a sprint to prove how much they loved Israel so they can both go pound sand.

I'm not saying you should've voted for her. It's this attitude that people should've voted against their own safety to protest a genocide that was going to continue regardless who won (but now most certainly will). You can mock "Bu...Bu...But Trump", but this is going to have ramifications for decades across the world, including Palestine. And it just makes you seem like you'd rather spread the hurt rather than contain it.

 

[tippy2k2]

US 2024 Presidential Election

Great but I wasn't talking about voting for Harris. Just the logic of ''anti genocide'' being the reason when it cannot be. One cannot be an anti genocide candidate when knowingly boosting the more pro genocide candidate. But if you're going with that logic, then you ARE saying I need to vote...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

I'm just gonna leave this here for no reason

 

[Casual Shinji]

So might as well have the LGBTQ+, black people, and women hurt right now, instead of trying to stave it off... Got it. Nice of you to clear that up.

 

[Kwak]

He’s a blunt instrument, but can still speak his own mind without sounding like his brain is running on dial up with only a few key sentences stored in memory about how evil their opponent is.

You fucking what?
How can you just lie to our faces like that? Have you never heard or read anything he says?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I keep seeing this notion that the Democrats lost because they don't connect to the working class and the Republicans do. But how do the Republicans connect to the working class that isn't just lying and stoking up their racism? Do we need the Democrats to just start doing that, to lie and point fingers in order to get a leg in with the working class? It reminds me of how people keep saying that the Left needs its Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, and Ben Shapiro; people who misinform, provide easy answers, and in the worst case call for violence against margilized communities. For what other reason are these guys popular - for "telling it how it is"? At what point did we start taking the onus off of the people who choose to listen to this shit, who choose to vote for hate?

The Democrats are fuck-ups, but no amount of fucking up could drive this many people to embracing fascism unless deep down they just want it, unless deep down they are just racist and hateful. These are people who just now knowingly threw their own daughters, sisters, mothers, and wives under the bus, and it's because the Democrats didn't have a clear enough policy!?

The fact that you say people are embracing fascism and that they are racist proves the left massively lies and you believe it. The View the day after the election was most racist and sexist bullshit that was on the air.

Its not about not having elections. Its about using the state's institutions to manipulate them for the desired result. Erdogan, Putin and Orban still have elections. That doesn't make them any less aspiring dictators or actual dictators.

Its also not ''literally'' the same since Harris and Biden aren't even left wing and so objectively cannot be socialists. But Trump is an authoritarian.

Trump isn't right-wing or authoritarian either...

For a fun change of pace though, maybe Democrats should actually DO the cool left wing shit they say they want to do. The fucks talk a HUGE game about all the cool left wing shit they want to do if only they were in power and then never say another word about it once they get into power. Maybe if they actually DID the cool shit they always promise, the average voter wouldn't bounce back and forth between Democrats and Republicans.

The problem is when the democrats actually do left wing shit, they usually do it very poorly and make things worse. The have the general concept and good intentions but they always take the teeth out of these policies and they don't work because of that. They could just copy/paste what other countries have done but they don't. Kamala's housing plan was stupid for example.

And you don't see how for certain groups in America there wasn't any getting around voting for Harris, considering that the alternative had already set up plans to persecute them to a far greater degree than they already were? A third party wasn't going to get anywhere, you know that. For the people in the crosshairs of conservatives it was either Harris or possible deportation, discrimination, or death.

Trump is not persecuting certain groups... What person that voted in the election is going to get deported, discriminated, or die because Trump won? Where are you getting this info from? You're literally regurgitating the same kinda of BS that conservatives said about Obamacare and death panels.

People have the power to vote in whoever they want, it's not Tippy's fault or my fault or your fault that people don't vote in their best interests. It's like how the grocery store has like 70% of food in it that isn't really food. If people didn't buy that food, it wouldn't be sold because it wouldn't be profitable.

So might as well have the LGBTQ+, black people, and women hurt right now, instead of trying to stave it off... Got it. Nice of you to clear that up.

How are they hurting in any kind of realistic objective fashion?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You fucking what?
How can you just lie to our faces like that? Have you never heard or read anything he says?

Who can do a 3 hour off-the-cuff podcast and who can't?