Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Satinavian

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Egypt and Jordan didn't allow the humanitarian corridors because Biden had no plans to allow the Palestinians to go back to Gaza after. There are already US soldiers there and have been for the last year. I can't help it if you aren't paying attention.
No, that is not quite right.

Egypt and Jordan didn't allow the humanitarian corridors because Netanyahu had no plans to allow the Palestinians to go back to Gaza after. Biden didn't really care either way. He would have taken any agreement just to get out of this mess without having to do something. He also complained more about the Israelis than about the Palestinians when such an agreement didn't manifest. But still couldn't bother to do anything.
 

crimson5pheonix

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No, that is not quite right.

Egypt and Jordan didn't allow the humanitarian corridors because Netanyahu had no plans to allow the Palestinians to go back to Gaza after. Biden didn't really care either way. He would have taken any agreement just to get out of this mess without having to do something. He also complained more about the Israelis than about the Palestinians when such an agreement didn't manifest. But still couldn't bother to do anything.
Functionally identical, but plausible.
 

Hades

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Can we get some opinions on the ''Lets surrender the US and the world to Trump for the sake of Gaza!'' crowd?

Do you guys feel betrayed that the guy who everyone knew only had the worst of intentions for Palestinians would escalate the brutality as everyone expected, or are you ready to admit you all never cared and that it was just a stick to beat the Democrats with to get Trump into power?
 

tippy2k2

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It is pretty comical to be constantly called self righteous by someone literally plugging their ears to crow about their superiority. I suppose this is enough to call everyone who chastises us hypocrites?
It's absolutely bonkers to me that Liberals watched Biden set the foundation for what Trump is continuing and go "Har har guess you should have voted Harris!!!"

Palestinians are nothing but pieces on a board to use to dunk on people who didn't want to vote for The Blue Colored Genocide to them. But I suppose it's a lot easier to say this is our fault for voting against genocide than it is to hold anyone with actual power accountable for the shit they do in office.
 

tstorm823

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None of you feel any joy in Trump standing next to Netanyahu and basically saying "oh, you wanted Gaza? Nah, it's ours now."?
 

Silvanus

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The entire point of this exercise was to remove Palestinians and take their land. Why is Gaza in this position in the first place? Who's bombs led to this? Who was cheerleading this whole affair? History didn't start on January 20th, just like it didn't start in October 2023.

Both those things are equivalent, because that was the point the whole time. Kamala would be talking about humanitarian corridors and US efforts in rebuilding the strip, but it would be dressed up language covering up what is for Trump naked ambition. Ethnic cleansing for a land grab. Middle Eastern leaders are just less naive than you.
You say "middle eastern leaders are just less naive", but middle Eastern leaders-- including Hamas-- are treating this as an escalation. "Pouring oil on the fire" was the term, I believe.

Indeed, history didn't begin on January 20th or October '23. That's how we know that successive governments in Israel have been ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank for decades upon decades. And in all that time, for various reasons, they have not practically approached the scale of what Trump is now proposing.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You say "middle eastern leaders are just less naive", but middle Eastern leaders-- including Hamas-- are treating this as an escalation. "Pouring oil on the fire" was the term, I believe.

Indeed, history didn't begin on January 20th or October '23. That's how we know that successive governments in Israel have been ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank for decades upon decades. And in all that time, for various reasons, they have not practically approached the scale of what Trump is now proposing.
They also didn't approach the scale of what Biden did. You seem confused. It's not that this isn't an escalation, it's that it's the exact same escalation that Kamala would be doing if she were elected. People crowing about "hOw DoEs YoUr VoTe FeEl NoW" are only showing their ignorance on the topic. This was expected. This is why Jill Stein was the correct choice. Because this escalation was inevitable between Kamala or Trump.
 
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thebobmaster

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You say that...and I don't disagree with your facts. At all. This is an escalation that would happen no matter who is in office. However, I'm not seeing a lot of people talking about how Harris/Biden would have been better. What I am seeing is at least two users talk about how they wouldn't have been any better and basically saying that anyone who voted for Harris is still somehow responsible for this.
 

crimson5pheonix

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You say that...and I don't disagree with your facts. At all. This is an escalation that would happen no matter who is in office. However, I'm not seeing a lot of people talking about how Harris/Biden would have been better. What I am seeing is at least two users talk about how they wouldn't have been any better and basically saying that anyone who voted for Harris is still somehow responsible for this.
I'm watching several people say outright that Harris would have been better, that Trump's escalation is unique.
 
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Thaluikhain

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And (I know we've been through this song and dance already but whatever) how many votes would've been lost by Harris actually "stopping" the genocide or cutting Israel off? Because unfortunately the mainstream media is still very much 'Israel has a right to defend itself', and Harris would've been lambasted an equal amount if not more. Pro-Palestinian protesters were labeled anti-semitic terrorists by Liberals; you think Harris being on their side would've won her the election?!
Given that Harris lost the election anyway, losing it for opposing genocide seems better than losing it for supporting genocide.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Well it’s a little difficult to imagine anyone else being elected President seriously suggesting the US annex the Gaza Strip.
And yet that's what was happening, or at least Israel annexing it on behalf of the US. I'd honestly call it a lateral move, either way you're ethnic cleansing and Trump was getting his tower there.
 
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thebobmaster

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I'm watching several people say outright that Harris would have been better, that Trump's escalation is unique.
I guess I'm just reading them as saying that Trump isn't an improvement or that he's in fact pushing what's going on, not necessarily that Biden/Harris would be better. Maybe that's just semantics, though, or I'm just reading it wrong.

Basically, the way I've been reading it isn't "Biden/Harris wouldn't have done it" or "Biden/Harris would have been better", it's "Trump is doing this, so I don't see how blaming this on Biden/Harris makes sense". Again, though, I fully admit that I could be misreading/misinterpreting things. That's why I don't discuss politics too much. Unless it's a massively blatant thing, I just don't know what I don't know, and it takes too much for me to realize it sometimes. Or I know that I don't know much about something, but feel I should still be expected to have an opinion on it, and so I say something that is just not accurate.
 

crimson5pheonix

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I guess I'm just reading them as saying that Trump isn't an improvement or that he's in fact pushing what's going on, not necessarily that Biden/Harris would be better. Maybe that's just semantics, though, or I'm just reading it wrong.

Basically, the way I've been reading it isn't "Biden/Harris wouldn't have done it" or "Biden/Harris would have been better", it's "Trump is doing this, so I don't see how blaming this on Biden/Harris makes sense". Again, though, I fully admit that I could be misreading/misinterpreting things. That's why I don't discuss politics too much. Unless it's a massively blatant thing, I just don't know what I don't know, and it takes too much for me to realize it sometimes. Or I know that I don't know much about something, but feel I should still be expected to have an opinion on it, and so I say something that is just not accurate.
No that's fair.

I'm talking about posts like these.

Consigning millions of people to privation and suffering is a small price to pay for the purity of their consciences.
So with Trump promising to depopulate and steal Gaza we shouldn’t forget to point and laugh at the morons who helped unleash Trump on the US and the world “for the sake of Gaza”

I hope you’re all very proud for knowingly choosing the wrong option for yourselves and Gaza alike.
When I see posts like that, it feels like I'm not reading into it to say that they're saying Harris would have been better here.

EDIT: There was also Worgen a few days ago saying outright it wasn't a genocide until now.
 

thebobmaster

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OK, I can see that. The last one I thought was more along the lines of "Trump isn't any better", but the last sentence does sound more like saying Harris would have been better. Which I don't think she would have been. Not necessarily any worse, but...let's just agree that pretty much all realistic options for the last election sucked in regards to this issue.
 
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Silvanus

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They also didn't approach the scale of what Biden did.
Not quite true; American military assistance to Israel was similar (or even briefly higher) in the 1970s-- and not just during the war.

You seem confused. It's not that this isn't an escalation, it's that it's the exact same escalation that Kamala would be doing if she were elected.
OK, well that's speculation. There was no statement or rhetoric that matched this until now. Biden-- even during his wretched, indefensible provision of these bombs-- said Palestinians must be allowed to live in and rule Gaza. The rhetoric has shifted.

I can't help but notice the posts have shifted, too. Before these statements it was, "things cannot possibly escalate further, so there's no difference". Now it's "things are escalating, but they'd have escalated anyway, so there's no difference". The framing just adapts to maintain this equivalence, even as the earlier claim that nothing could escalate further has fallen apart.

People crowing about "hOw DoEs YoUr VoTe FeEl NoW" are only showing their ignorance on the topic.
To be clear, that crowing is really misguided. It feels like co-opting or using their suffering as petty ammunition. I don't like it-- and I feel exactly the same way about the crowing from Tippy, and the insistence on blaming Democrat voters for what the Republicans are doing.
 
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Agema

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There is something incredibly wretched about people who oppose the maltreatment of Palestinians keeping themselves warm at night by raging at other people who oppose the maltreatment of Palestinians.

No wonder the Zionists win, if that's their opposition.
 
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