Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Satinavian]

The actions of the president have not meaningfully changed.

If you want to talk actions :

Trump approved more weapons to Israel.
Trump put the the whole International Criminal Court on sanctions for daring to prosecute Israeli politicians
Trump stopped sanctions against violent West bank "settlers" that Biden had introduced.
Trump signed an executive order to end all visas of any pro-Palestinian protesters.

And all in just a couple of days. Harris would not have done any of that.

It is not only just his words. His actions are worse as well.

 

[tippy2k2]

I can tell you something I know would NOT happen if Harris had won: that the president of the USA would have overtly advocated a massive crime against humanity, and not only that, but actually suggest that the USA carry it out. The shit has escalated, bigly. That's not a difficult conclusion.

See, this is the difference between those of us arguing it wouldn't have mattered and therefore we stuck with our convictions and voted against Blue Genocide and those of us arguing that The Red Genocide has become worse and if Blue Genocide had won, it would be better.

Biden/Harris has let Israel do whatever the fuck it wants ever since Oct 7 2023. Sure, Biden chastised them publicly every once in a while but his actions spoke FAR louder than words. "Here's everything you need to carry out this genocide Israel, go nutter butters. Don't cross these Red Lines though or else we'll do something about it "

The VBNMW crowd believes that, despite the last year and a half, NOW the backbone would show up and Harris would stand up to Israel and say "No, this is too far!". Where I just look at what has been happening in the last year and a half and go "This is blatantly obvious that this has been the plan this entire time, Biden/Harris just weren't stupid enough to say the quiet parts out loud where Trump likes to hear himself speak".

Is it possible that Harris would have suddenly now grown a backbone? Yeah, sure. It's also theoretically possible that I would end up with a harem of the hottest chicks imaginable that love me for who I am, all want to be with me and are perfectly fine sharing, just before I won three lotteries in a row and then I discovered a serum that made me into Captain America. Both scenarios have about the same chance of happening.

We just live in two entirely different worlds. I live in a world where Harris has said Israel has a right to defend itself and was in an administration where Israel was given a blank check to do whatever the fuck they wanted as long as Biden once in a while got to yell at him for it (meanwhile, Israel gleefully spits in the face of the president when they talk about how they're going to kill every last man woman and child). VBNMW live in a world where The Blue Genocide Candidate suddenly decides that a little Genocide was fine but going full genocide is just a bridge too far and NOW we're gonna do something about it.

As you've stated, at this point it doesn't really matter and everyone has lost in this fight. I just want to throw out the reminder that this new discussion all kicked off again because Hades started doing Touchdown Dances on the graves of Palestinians to dunk on those of us who refused to vote for The Blue Genocide...

 

[Seanchaidh]

If you want to talk actions :

Trump approved more weapons to Israel.
Trump put the the whole International Criminal Court on sanctions for daring to prosecute Israeli politicians
Trump stopped sanctions against violent West bank "settlers" that Biden had introduced.
Trump signed an executive order to end all visas of any pro-Palestinian protesters.

And all in just a couple of days. Harris would not have done any of that.

It is not only just his words. His actions are worse as well.

Oh my.

One of those has little material impact (sanctions on settlers) and your confidence that Kamala Harris would not have done the other three is absolutely delusional.

*The Biden administration repeatedly approved more weapons to israel. Harris obviously was going to continue doing that. Biden repeatedly agreed to send more weapons as lame duck. Why did you even list this? It's so transparently wrong.

*Congressional Democrats participated in sanctioning the ICC and did so during the Biden administration. Blinken's state department (i.e. the foreign policy arm of the Biden administration) also signalled they wanted to do this 8 months ago:

Blinken willing to work with Congress on potential sanctions against ICC

Republicans seek help from secretary of state after prosecutor Karim Khan requests arrest warrant for Israeli PM Netanyahu

www.theguardian.com

The Biden administration is willing to work with Congress to potentially impose sanctions against international criminal court officials over the prosecutor’s request for arrest warrants for Israeli leaders over the Gaza war, Antony Blinken, the secretary of state, said on Tuesday.

At a Senate appropriations subcommittee hearing, Republican Lindsey Graham told Blinken he wanted to see renewed US sanctions on the court in response to the move announced by ICC prosecutor Karim Khan on Monday.

“I want to take actions, not just words,” Graham said to Blinken. “Will you support [a] bipartisan effort to sanction the ICC, not only for the outrage against Israel but to protect, in the future, our own interest?”
“I welcome working with you on that,” Blinken said.

To think, Kamala Harris would not have done that for some reason.

Biden and the Democratic Party both took steps to criminalize protest against the genocide. Democrats have been competing with Republicans on being anti-immigrant, so it's not at all certain that Kamala Harris would not sign legislation to deport people for being critical of israel. She's very obviously influenced by the israel lobby and that is a thing they wanted. So this can all be summed up as additional things happening because time hasn't stood still. Things were getting worse and that continued on more or less a straight line with respect to US policy on Palestine.

 

[Silvanus]

Along with Palestine. I know, you don't care.

....I'm the one saying the situation is getting worse, as others seem intent to deny it. Portraying that as not caring is monumental horseshit. "Not caring" is whitewashing a clear escalation of the plan in order to maintain a meaningless moral equivalence in America.

You live in a world where it has always been Israel and they've never annexed land and threw out Palestinians before ever. This is aaaallllll new, because it's Trump. I'm just going to remind you every time you speak on this topic the incredibly stupid statement you just made to imply the Palestinians have not been expelled from their land in the past 80 years. Complete rewrite of history. You're an incredibly unserious person.

I didn't say that. Any of that. And you say *I* have a problem with reading? You just made all of that up.

The rhetoric has shifted. The trajectory has not. Biden never did anything to enforce the idea that Palestinians must be allowed to live in and control Gaza, and did everything to move in the other direction. He took every opportunity to blame Hamas for what was the fault of the Zionist regime, declared 'red lines' that were blatantly violated by the Zionists and promptly disregarded, and the vaunted aid pier was used for a military operation against the Palestinians and then abandoned.

These are actions consistent with US policy since the 70s.

A period during which Palestinian land has been encroached and stolen, Palestinian people have been murdered and displaced. And a period during which the majority of the population of the area is Palestinian and ruled by a Palestinian organisation.

 

[Agema]

See, this is the difference between those of us arguing it wouldn't have mattered and therefore we stuck with our convictions and voted against Blue Genocide and those of us arguing that The Red Genocide has become worse and if Blue Genocide had won, it would be better.

It's not just about genocide, though, is it? It's also abortion rights, healthcare, corruption, law, Ukraine, economics, trade wars, climate change, autocracy, etc. That bathwater just chucked out had a lot of potential babies in, and the fact that Red Genocide really is worse than Blue Genocide is like the bath was refilled by the latrine outflow anyway.

I would suggest to you pretty much no-one was confident Harris was going to be much of an improvement over Biden. In fact I suspect they were making a very similar calculation as you: it's just that where yours was "I can't save the Palestinians, fuck everything", theirs was "I can't save the Palestinians, let's save everything else". Given the current state of affairs, I wonder why they might be bitter about you calling them genocide apologists?

I just want to throw out the reminder that this new discussion all kicked off again because Hades started doing Touchdown Dances on the graves of Palestinians to dunk on those of us who refused to vote for The Blue Genocide...

There are better ways to take responsibility than "He started it."

 

[tippy2k2]

It's not just about genocide, though, is it? It's also abortion rights, healthcare, corruption, law, Ukraine, economics, trade wars, climate change, autocracy, etc. That bathwater just chucked out had a lot of potential babies in, and the fact that Red Genocide really is worse than Blue Genocide is like the bath was refilled by the latrine outflow anyway.

I would suggest to you pretty much no-one was confident Harris was going to be much of an improvement over Biden. In fact I suspect they were making a very similar calculation as you: it's just that where yours was "I can't save the Palestinians, fuck everything", theirs was "I can't save the Palestinians, let's save everything else". Given the current state of affairs, I wonder why they might be bitter about you calling them genocide apologists?

Because I don't want Republicans to keep winning. But they're going to if the Democrats can't figure out how to pull their heads out of their asses and realize running to the right isn't the winning play. So I will continue to hammer them in the vain hopes that they will eventually realize they lose because all they keep doing is screaming "Bu bu bu but Trump!!!" and bragging about how much Liz Cheney loves them.

If someone doesn't want to be called a Genocide Apologist, they shouldn't defend a Genocider just because they have a Blue tint instead of a Red Tint. They should be yelling at The Democrats for caring more about Israel getting to do a Genocide over trying to win an election. But that is way harder so they yell at third party voters instead (even though numbers don't lie and Harris STILL would have lost even if magically every single third party voter voted Harris).

There are better ways to take responsibility than "He started it."

I'm not going to sit back and let people shit on me. ESPECIALLY when it's someone using a fucking Genocide to score dunking on points. Fuck that noise. If people don't want me to give them a slap, they shouldn't shit talk.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

....I'm the one saying the situation is getting worse, as others seem intent to deny it. Portraying that as not caring is monumental horseshit. "Not caring" is whitewashing a clear escalation of the plan in order to maintain a meaningless moral equivalence in America.



I didn't say that. Any of that. And you say *I* have a problem with reading? You just made all of that up.



These are actions consistent with US policy since the 70s.

A period during which Palestinian land has been encroached and stolen, Palestinian people have been murdered and displaced. And a period during which the majority of the population of the area is Palestinian and ruled by a Palestinian organisation.

I've already quoted where you said that to someone else. You did say it. You called what Biden did business as usual. Said business being the extermination of the Palestinian people and the forced eviction from their land. You don't even know which way is up, presuming you're genuine at all. I note now that you've been called out on it, you've shifted from 80 years to 50 years. You and Agema just come off as completely delusional.

 

[Seanchaidh]

These are actions consistent with US policy since the 70s.

A period during which Palestinian land has been encroached and stolen, Palestinian people have been murdered and displaced. And a period during which the majority of the population of the area is Palestinian and ruled by a Palestinian organisation.

Under Biden, they killed and kidnapped doctors, under Biden they destroyed so much public health infrastructure that the Palestinians could no longer count their dead. Ethnic cleansing by mass murder was transparently the aim for the last year and Biden did nothing to dissuade them. Biden allowed (and facilitated) the Zionist menace to destroy so much of Gaza that ethnic cleansing can be presented as an unremarkable course of action by your BBC.

 

[Silvanus]

I've already quoted where you said that to someone else. You did say it. You called what Biden did business as usual.

You initially claimed that i believed they "never annexed land or threw out Palestinians before ever", "this is all new". Which is such an utterly shameless lie. My position is the opposite: that they've been doing that for decades. And that Biden's approach was consistent with that policy, for the most part.

And throughout that, the situation has never approached the plan as described by Trump. We were told pre-election that things categorically cannot get worse. Now we're seeing a plan laid out for a dramatic escalation: Hamas calls it "Pouring oil on the fire", and the Israeli government is welcoming it with glee. The actual players acknowledge it's a change. But apparently, recognition of scale and scope is too complex for commentators in the West, who're so wedded to the "nothing ever changes" narrative they'll whitewash further suffering to maintain it. That's madness.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And throughout that, the situation has never approached the plan as described by Trump.

And this is the bullshit you're trying to sell. It is bad, it's also what was going to happen at the end of this no matter whether it was Trump or Kamala because

And I want to emphasize this

BIDEN WAS ALREADY IN TALKS TO DO EXACTLY THIS A YEAR AGO.

That you can't be bothered to pay attention is your fault. Don't get pouty when people point out that they told you this was going to happen over a year ago.

 

[Silvanus]

And this is the bullshit you're trying to sell. It is bad, it's also what was going to happen at the end of this no matter whether it was Trump or Kamala because

And I want to emphasize this

BIDEN WAS ALREADY IN TALKS TO DO EXACTLY THIS A YEAR AGO.

That you can't be bothered to pay attention is your fault. Don't get pouty when people point out that they told you this was going to happen over a year ago.

OK, so can I see what you're basing this on?

A reminder that opening evac corridors, even without a solid plan for return, is very very very obviously not the same thing. And that's all that was provided before.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

A reminder that opening evac corridors, even without a solid plan for return, is very very very obviously not the same thing.

How?

 

[Satinavian]

How?

Becaue even with evacuation corridors people are not forced out. Most would have stayed anyway.

And because it does not give their land to US ownership.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Becaue even with evacuation corridors people are not forced out. Most would have stayed anyway.

And because it does not give their land to US ownership.

"Not forced out"

Found the next person who hasn't been paying attention. Protip: "Get out or you'll be shot to death" is forcing out. The humanitarian corridor is explicitly there because the alternative is to be killed. That's called ethnic cleansing.