Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates
- Thread starter dreng3
- Start date
Being Pro-Israel 'Rehabilitates the Far Right,' Says Jewish Writer Rachel Shabi
Mehdi interviews the journalist and author of the insightful new book, 'Off-White: The Truth About Antisemitism.'
zeteo.com
All the media acting surprised at trumps speech really are taking the fucking the piss, he talked about it before the election and Jared Kushner even months before that talked of it at harvard! Just psychos, fucking hollow power-drunk psychos everywhere as we sleep walk into our 6th extinction fuck off all you kunts
And yet Biden was trying to expel the Palestinians from their land. Rhetoric is pointless, actions are. Kamala vowed to continue Biden's actions. It's no more speculation than the speculation that Trump was talking out his ass when he said he was going to be the peace president on the campaign trail.
I know, you have an issue reading. It's been a theme with you.
Like this right here.
It must suck looking in a mirror.
Rhetoric gives us a strong indicator for where actions will lead. With Biden, his actions fit the mold of US Presidents for decades: mostly heaps of arms sales, to appease Israel's government (and lobbyists), and to make money. There's no real indication that would lead to US takeover of the land and full expulsion. It didn't for the last 80 years.
Nope, no rewriting the record. We were distinctly told that things cannot get worse, cannot escalate further, as a reason not to warn against Trump. The framing has shifted to accommodate what is patent escalation under the new President.
Last edited:
The literal map of Israel today tells you that you're wrong. I don't know what false reality you live in.
I dunno, that's a concoction of your mind. The discussion was always the comparison between Trump and Biden/Harris. So far, nothing of note has changed between the two.
I live in the reality in which about 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza and it is governed by a Palestinian group. You can claim to see no difference in Trump's vision for the region if you want. But both Hamas and Israel themselves clearly do, and made no bones about it.
Alright, into the memory hole it goes.
Along with Palestine. I know, you don't care. You live in a world where it has always been Israel and they've never annexed land and threw out Palestinians before ever. This is aaaallllll new, because it's Trump.
I'm just going to remind you every time you speak on this topic the incredibly stupid statement you just made to imply the Palestinians have not been expelled from their land in the past 80 years. Complete rewrite of history. You're an incredibly unserious person.
The international community is so useless. I know United States will never correct their evil, but I'm more disappointed by the rest of the world (barring a few supporters like United Kingdom and Germany) for not being more forceful. On top of more sanctions and travel bans, could easily take care of it by combining a number of their armies and marching into Israel. United States can't fight the whole world, doesn't want to lose those trading partners. Look at Netanyahu's wide smile as Trumped talked about removing the people of Gaza.
Surprised it’s taken this long. It was inevitably going to be a land grab.
www.amnesty.org
Israel had security lapses and knew about plans for the October 7th attack nearly a year in advance. Given what’s transpired it doesn’t seem erroneous to suggest it sacrificed its own people to use the event as justification for a retaliation that still hasn’t ended.
Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession
Mass human rights violations during the 50-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have devastated the lives of millions of Palestinians.
www.amnesty.org
Israel had security lapses and knew about plans for the October 7th attack nearly a year in advance. Given what’s transpired it doesn’t seem erroneous to suggest it sacrificed its own people to use the event as justification for a retaliation that still hasn’t ended.
Last edited:
That is clearly not what Silvanus is arguing, and it doesn't do your credibility any good to claim it is.
It's not clear to me.
The last 80 years has been the takeover of land and expulsion of Palestinians.
Emphasis mine. Previous US policy (with the tacit support of most of the world) has been piecemeal takeover of land by Israel and expulsion/murder of Palestinians. Trump is talking about the entirety. As abhorrent as the US has been on the issue, that's a significant step further.
(You could argue that the difference between Israeli takeover and US takeover is negligible)
OTOH, yeah, that's arguing which genocide is worse. While that is something that can be quantified, christ.
I'm not going to buy that hinge. The full expulsion has clearly been the goal the whole time, and strictly speaking Trump is only talking about Gaza and Gaza isn't the whole of Palestine. So if we're going to zero in on words, he's wrong there too. But really, the full expulsion has been the plan for 80 years, the escalation here was demolishing Gaza city all in one go, which Trump didn't do. Going to expel the Palestinians was also something Biden tried to do. The "escalation", such as it is, is in Trump saying it out loud. And I suppose in US planting the flag on the remains, but yes, that distinction has little meaning.
The rhetoric has shifted. The trajectory has not. Biden never did anything to enforce the idea that Palestinians must be allowed to live in and control Gaza, and did everything to move in the other direction. He took every opportunity to blame Hamas for what was the fault of the Zionist regime, declared 'red lines' that were blatantly violated by the Zionists and promptly disregarded, and the vaunted aid pier was used for a military operation against the Palestinians and then abandoned.
They were doing ethnic cleansing and mass murder before. They are doing ethnic cleansing and mass murder now. The main thing that has 'changed' is that time has passed. The situation has developed in apparent consistence with both Trump and Biden policy: support 'israel' doing whatever it wants (loudly) vs. support 'israel' doing whatever it wants (but complain about it occasionally). This is a pattern that you'll see Republicans and Democrats doing on other issues too: do something bad loudly vs. do something bad quietly; for example, Biden immigration policy was contemptible trash, but the narrative is that it was open borders; now we see at least one Senate Democrat bragging that for all the publicity of the ICE raids since Trump assumed office, Biden deported more people (and a higher share of criminals, he also said that); why wasn't that high rate of deportation news at the time? It didn't suit the narratives used to divide and rule. False conflict between elements of the ruling class; your three cent titanium tax goes too far vs. your three cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough.
I think that people who oppose Zionism should actually oppose it.
I don't believe that "don't you regret not voting for the other Zionist now that this Zionist is also doing Zionist things" constitutes opposing Zionism. Does Hades oppose Zionism? Seems more like Hades just wants a cudgel against people who Hades thinks are responsible for 'electing Trump' by not voting for Harris. It's 2016 brainrot a full eight and a bit years later, now aimed at people who voted for no genocide instead of blue genocide or red genocide (or, indeed, those who voted for an at the time theoretical red genocide so as not to vote to reelect the actual blue genocide which I don't think describes anyone who has posted on this forum but does have a logic to it).
I don't think Hades has come to this organically; Democratic Party mouthpieces have been pushing that line, so Hades probably adopted it from them. If not directly, Hades adopted the mindset that leads to such thinking from them. The counterintuitive 'you must vote for this genocide to avoid basically the same genocide' is way more popular than the quality of the idea itself suggests it should be: it is reasoning backwards from the 'you should have voted Harris' conclusion.
It is little wonder that Zionists win when a significant portion of their 'opposition' is captured by political parties that support Zionism, especially when those who 'oppose Zionism' prioritize the party over their opposition to Zionism.
Last edited:
Ok, even if you don't believe there's be (somewhat) less genocide under Harris, surely you can accept that others genuinely believe that, and given that premise, see her as PotUS as being desirable over Trump?
Having said that, if she won, if 4 years time there'd be another election and nothing would have significantly improved in the meanwhile.
People think and say all kinds of things. Hades, specifically, appears not to care about Palestine one bit.
No, they find that extremely difficult. Let me explain.
I can tell you something I know would NOT happen if Harris had won: that the president of the USA would have overtly advocated a massive crime against humanity, and not only that, but actually suggest that the USA carry it out. The shit has escalated, bigly. That's not a difficult conclusion.
And this is the root of the whole "this has been the plan all along" we're seeing in this thread.
Yes, they thought Harris needed to be punished for not standing up to Israel, and now - as accurately predicted - her opponent turns out to be massively worse. At this point, they could have the courage of their convictions and say that it doesn't matter, they can't vote for anyone who they think supported genocide, even if it means worse people win. I can respect that.
But evidently they don't have the courage of that conviction, because they're trying to convince themselves actually the outcome isn't worse. "This has been the plan all along" is a comforting fiction to achieve that. Sure, there was a plan amongst the Israeli right, and evidently it was known about in other circles (e.g. Kushner a few years ago wittering on about Gaza beachfront property) but there's no evidence it had any significant traction outside a brigade of sociopathic kooks. There's no compelling reason to think it would have gone anywhere soon... unless Americans put one of those kooks in charge of the White House. But if you feel perhaps a bit awkward about the fact you advocated a course of action that helped said sociopath into power, obviously, you might want to feel a lot less awkward about it, so why not make up a comfortable fiction?
And in the end that's why they end up doing things like de facto supporting autocrats in other countries that oppose the USA, like Putin. Perhaps if they had the courage to truly accept worse outcomes for making the right moral choice, they'd be okay: but that requires incredible courage that very few people have. Most want outcomes. So at some point they have to divorce decision-making from reality and consequences, and once that's done, a person can end up anywhere at all, including in some warped way defending what they are supposed to oppose.
So, I totally get why it's incredibly annoying for people of a more pragmatic, "do the best I can with what I have" mien to have to put up with a moralising twerp whose inflexibility has made everyone's lives worse, and then pretends that's everyone else's fault but theirs.
On the other hand, morality is a thing and people feel it very intensely. As above, I can respect not voting for Harris because at the end of the day, even if she is a better choice overall, she has crossed a red line. I can absolutely understand why if that red line is that important to a person, then it is very difficult to accept and morally tolerate people who do. And maybe if more of us did have those sorts of standards, there would be fewer compromises with, well, evil.
And if that is how a person feels, I totally get how frustrating it must be for them listen to a condescending arse tell them that their stupid morality has ruined everything and if they could only be more pliant in the face of crimes against humanity we might fix some crimes against humanity.
At the end of the day, we're all losers here (except TStorm who doesn't give a monkeys about genocide just so long as the Republicans win). Of course we're not the real losers, that's the Palestinians, but we all think things are worse. Maybe mutual recriminations and infighting is part of the grieving process, but really, we have got to find a more useful way to move forwards eventually, and I can't help but think that needs more acceptance of differing views.
It may not be a difficult conclusion, but it is also not a terribly important one. You're talking about words. The actions of the president have not meaningfully changed. Biden was letting the brigade of sociopathic kooks you referred to do anything they wanted and shielding them from consequences. Now the American President is explicitly saying he supports the things the previous President was merely enabling with material support, diplomatic cover, and the suppression of domestic protest. All of which will continue, but now we won't have gratifying articles about the President being so super angry with Netanyahu that he'll take the extraordinary step of fuming in private according to anonymous sources.