Ukraine

[Agema]

Oh, that shouting match last night probably put a lid on that regardless.

I get the feeling the lid was shut a long, long time ago.

The only "deal" being worked on here is how best to sell the volte face into backing Russia to the US public. The strategy seems to be to blame Ukraine: first offer it a humiliating and appalling deal it would struggle to accept, then when Ukraine tries to work with it anyway, set up a diplomatic disaster.

 

[Chimpzy]

I get the feeling the lid was shut a long, long time ago.

The only "deal" being worked on here is how best to sell the volte face into backing Russia to the US public. The strategy seems to be to blame Ukraine: first offer it a humiliating and appalling deal it would struggle to accept, then when Ukraine tries to work with it anyway, set up a diplomatic disaster.

Probably, yes. Classic Krasnov. I wonder how far it'll go. Supplies? Arms? Troops? Not really discounting anything.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Is this some kind of robotic response to my repetition of Silvanus's phrase 'prevailing political orthodoxy'? What's going on here? Honestly, what the fuck are you talking about? And why do you think I should want to go to Russia when I say, about the matters we're comparing it on, that it is much like the United States?

"What I am talking about" is that, if you think that Russia and the US share much in the way of political similarity then you don't really seem to understand Russia at all, and it might help to actually engage to some extent with the real country that actually exists. Again, the barrier to information is virtually non-existent. You can get on a plane, fly to Russia and find out first hand what it is like.

You are not depoliticized, you just don't like having political responsibility. Those are not the same thing.

 

[Hades]

So aside from Hungary the western world unanimously condemned Trump for acting like a freak and randomly picking a fight with Zelensky. But I'm curious about what the reaction of the Americans themselves are, be it either through their media, opinion polls or sentiments online or on the street?

 

[meiam]

So aside from Hungary the western world unanimously condemned Trump for acting like a freak and randomly picking a fight with Zelensky. But I'm curious about what the reaction of the Americans themselves are, be it either through their media, opinion polls or sentiments online or on the street?

I'm guessing about 2/3 would be "what's a Ukraine?".

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

So aside from Hungary the western world unanimously condemned Trump for acting like a freak and randomly picking a fight with Zelensky. But I'm curious about what the reaction of the Americans themselves are, be it either through their media, opinion polls or sentiments online or on the street?

I've already seen someone compare supporting Ukraine to being mired in Vietnam. Republicans, the stalwart defenders of democracy the world over....

 

[Agema]

I've already seen someone compare supporting Ukraine to being mired in Vietnam. Republicans, the stalwart defenders of democracy the world over....

Are they also the sort of person who argues that the USA would have won if only the weakling lefties hadn't undermined morale and the politicians hadn't given up?

 

[Hades]

How JD Vance emerged as the chief saboteur of the transatlantic alliance

Vance snaked his way in first to the row between Trump and Zelenskyy, his second intrusion this month after Munich

www.theguardian.com

 

[Chimpzy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/02/28/trump-presidency-news/#link-U4SPRIDWBNBPZBXDLEHMNTMD7E

That took longer than expected

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Are they also the sort of person who argues that the USA would have won if only the weakling lefties hadn't undermined morale and the politicians hadn't given up?

Yep.

 

[Silvanus]

There's two possibilities.

One, that it was a manufactured diplomatic incident, to justify the withdrawal of American support that Trump wanted to pursue anyway. A set-up, ambush, whatever.

Two, that it wasn't. Which would mean that the course of the war, Eastern European sovereignty, and tens or hundreds of thousands of lives are being decided by the individual personalities of three or four people. Not by political platforms, national interests, international alliances, laws... but by one or two people feeling smug & argumentative and getting testy.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Trump was talking shit when he said that Zelensky wasn't "showing enough gratitude" to the United States. What Trump wanted was for Zelensky to bend a knee to him, to beg him for help, to give him whatever he asked for so that he could call himself "the best deal-maker". When that didn't happen, Trump reacted the same way he always does when he's kept from what he wants- like a whiny, tantrum-throwing child.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

Hmm -



lol in the replies -

 

[Chimpzy]

Hmm -



lol in the replies -
View attachment 12868

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about war with Russia. Not with Krasnov in office. Going to war 'with' Russia, as in as allies against someone else, might actually have higher odds now. Now if you were, say, Polish or Finnish? Then yes, worry.

 

[Hades]

There's two possibilities.

One, that it was a manufactured diplomatic incident, to justify the withdrawal of American support that Trump wanted to pursue anyway. A set-up, ambush, whatever.

Two, that it wasn't. Which would mean that the course of the war, Eastern European sovereignty, and tens or hundreds of thousands of lives are being decided by the individual personalities of three or four people. Not by political platforms, national interests, international alliances, laws... but by one or two people feeling smug & argumentative and getting testy.

That Zelensky was ambushed is clear as day. The real question is by whom. Its very possible Trump was setting him up for an ambush, but its also possible that Trump just wanted his mineral deal and got manipulated by Vance. Its worth noting things only went sideways when Vance got involved. Either Vance knew just what buttons to press to get his mentally ill boss to go berserk, or Trump wanted things to go wrong from the start.

 

[Kwak]

There's two possibilities.

One, that it was a manufactured diplomatic incident, to justify the withdrawal of American support that Trump wanted to pursue anyway. A set-up, ambush, whatever.

Two, that it wasn't. Which would mean that the course of the war, Eastern European sovereignty, and tens or hundreds of thousands of lives are being decided by the individual personalities of three or four people. Not by political platforms, national interests, international alliances, laws... but by one or two people feeling smug & argumentative and getting testy.

The presence of Russian state media being there despite not having clearance indicates the former.

https://www.reuters.com/world/russian-state-media-reporter-gains-access-is-later-removed-trump-zelenskiy-2025-02-28/

 

[Agema]

There's two possibilities.

One, that it was a manufactured diplomatic incident, to justify the withdrawal of American support that Trump wanted to pursue anyway. A set-up, ambush, whatever.

Two, that it wasn't. Which would mean that the course of the war, Eastern European sovereignty, and tens or hundreds of thousands of lives are being decided by the individual personalities of three or four people. Not by political platforms, national interests, international alliances, laws... but by one or two people feeling smug & argumentative and getting testy.

One might argue that a key aim of the modern democratic state is to inhibit the course of nations being decided by the whim of a handful of people. (Arguably that's also why so many people are frustrated and disillusioned with democracy because it can be so hard to get anything done.) This was the lesson of yesteryear with monarchs and emperors causing havoc for their nations. However, the specific ideology of the Trump presidency is reversion to increased executive power and a monarchical president, so it seems apt for the whims of Trump to decide the fate of nations.

Trump is extremely impulsive: push him the wrong way and he goes into meltdown. So I absolutely could believe this was an accident... except for the fact that Vance sparked it, not Trump. It's possible Vance is incredibly incompetent, but I think it's more likely this was a set-up. Or perhaps that Zelenskyy was invited to play a very specific role - that of supplicant - and when he failed to do so Vance decided to take him down.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Zelensky’s hostility to peace triggers White House meltdown

Long rewarded by Washington and NATO for undermining diplomacy with Russia, Zelensky grew confrontational -- and told outright falsehoods -- when Donald Trump and JD Vance told him to make peace.

www.aaronmate.net

...

In Zelensky’s defense, he has also faced, from the start of his presidency, the threat of violence from Ukrainian ultra-nationalists staunchly opposed to any peace deal with Russia and allied eastern Ukrainians. And rather than help him overcome this domestic obstacle to peace, Washington has enabled it. As the late scholar Stephen F. Cohen prophetically warned in October 2019, Zelensky would not be able to “go forward with full peace negotiations unless America has his back” against “a quasi-fascist movement” that was literally threatening his life.

...

 

[Seanchaidh]

"What I am talking about" is that, if you think that Russia and the US share much in the way of political similarity then you don't really seem to understand Russia at all

If that is your explanation, then I have to conclude that your rambling "... belief that an 'unorthodox' position is more credible because it is unorthodox is spectacularly naive..." is little more than lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.

In terms of the grip on power of their rulers, they are very similar. Silvanus's dismissal of the transgressive rhetoric and analysis of the party platform of the CPRF- who for some reason can get away with doing precisely what Silvanus asserts will get people murdered by the state in Russia-- is that the party's role in politics is to be controlled opposition. Like the Democratic Party. Or the Labour Party. The main difference is that the head of government in Russia actually seems to hold the power of his office rather than being a mere servant of a collection of economic elites.

 

[Silvanus]

In terms of the grip on power of their rulers, they are very similar.

I don't think even you believe this, it's so transparently wrong. The state controls all significant media, and independent media is shuttered and expelled. Critics are abducted and murdered. There is scarcely any independent voice tolerated to exist. And the same party, even the same man, have held power uninterrupted for 25 years, with every election outcome decided beforehand.

Silvanus's dismissal of the transgressive rhetoric and analysis of the party platform of the CPRF- who for some reason can get away with doing precisely what Silvanus asserts will get people murdered by the state in Russia-- is that the party's role in politics is to be controlled opposition.

That's right. This is a well-known approach in repressive societies; an internal, systemic, nominal opposition is allowed to exist-- may even be allowed to post a party platform on its website!!-- so long as they don't seriously offer any actual opposition. And hence, the (still aggressively nationalist) CPRF will fawningly provide the legislative support for whatever Putin wants and praise the government platform when it matters. Opposition in name only.

Actually challenge the government's platform-- i.e., protest, oppose major legislation, publish independent media critical of the government-- and the tolerance evaporates.