US 2024 Presidential Election

[tstorm823]

And we can see where this going already. Countries are moving towards trade deals... just they're rushing to everyone else but the USA because who wants exposure to a major trade partner that behaves like that? Trump is playing a major role in tipping the UK back towards the EU, the EU has signed a major deal with India, and pretty much everyone (Canada, EU, UK) is reappraising China with a view to more openness. One can credit Trump with decisively refreshing the global order. It's just he was supposed to do it in the USA's best interest.

Are you aware that your own country, post-Brexit, was negotiating a free-trade agreement with the US in 2020, had it fall to the side during the Biden administration, and then brought back into talks with Trump 2, with a smaller package for specific goods enacted already in the spring? And now you are receiving more US exports than a year ago. And total US export volume maintained roughly its previous growth rate even while diversifying away from trade with China?

Also, you guys are funny.

Silvanus: The EU signing a trade deal with India was a long time coming, it has nothing to do with Trump!
Agema: Trump is pushing trade partners away, the EU is signing trade deals with India now!

And you'll never argue with one another about it. Never.

 

[tstorm823]

As was the case with the idea that these people aren't entitled to due process at all.

Yeah, but that was just a rhetorical distinction, not a substantive one.

Like the other day, when Phoenix told you that immigration judges are a totally separate thing, they aren't part of the judiciary at all, and you were just like "well, I didn't know that, the US is worse than I thought." No, it isn't, you just don't know anything. You imagine due process as some uniform thing, but what process people are due varies tremendously depending on the action. Most importantly, you view deportation as though it is a punishment, and while sometimes it is treated as such, that's not the case.

Consider a theft. The thief takes something from you, gets caught, and you get your stuff back. (inb4 Seanchaidh complains about police keeping stolen property for themselves). You getting your property back is not punishment. If they go to jail, that would be the punishment, but giving your stuff back to you is independent of that, and independent of even a conviction. If it's like a car, and the title is in your name, and you didn't give it away and you want it back, you getting the car back is an aspect of justice in the abstract sense of it, but it is not an action of criminal justice requiring them to be convicted by a jury.

Similarly, consider trespassing. If someone is trespassing on private property, you don't need to go through the whole legal process prior to removing them from the premises. If you want to jail or fine them for trespassing, they are entitled to a diligent process of law. The process for removing trespassers, however, is the owner tells them to leave and they don't, then the police tell them to leave and they don't, then the police physically remove them. There's not warrants or judges or juries involved in that process, the maximum they are due is a chance to rectify the situation by leaving on their own.

In your mind, you obviously see deportation as a punishment that deserves the full consideration of the judicial system. You view it as though the country doing the deporting is declaring the deportees the most heinous of criminals to be punished by exile. But that isn't it. They're not supposed to be here. It's not jailing the car thief, it's giving the car back. It's not fining the trespasser, it's removing them from the property. It's not enacting punishment, it is reestablishing the legally valid status quo, and the due process for doing so is, for good reasons, tremendously less than for the enactment of punishments.

And if you stop thinking about the US (the imaginary hellscape in your mind that has little connection to reality) and consider any other nation, I guarantee you can understand this.

 

[Silvanus]

Yeah, but that was just a rhetorical distinction, not a substantive one.

Like the other day, when Phoenix told you that immigration judges are a totally separate thing, they aren't part of the judiciary at all, and you were just like "well, I didn't know that, the US is worse than I thought." No, it isn't, you just don't know anything. You imagine due process as some uniform thing, but what process people are due varies tremendously depending on the action. Most importantly, you view deportation as though it is a punishment, and while sometimes it is treated as such, that's not the case.

I never imagined due process as a uniform thing. There were specific processes to which these people were entitled, and to which they were denied. This was established in federal court. The government didn't even dispute that. Phoenix's response was to insist they weren't entitled to anything; he was the only one who ever envisaged due process as a uniform thing, and one to which foreigners have no recourse.

And due process was not directly connected to why i said immigration judges being in the executive branch is a bad sign. Its a bad sign because leaving individual judgements entirely up to a political branch leaves it ever more open to political abuse. There are plenty of features of the UK system that enable abuse, too, some of which aren't shared by the US.

Consider a theft. The thief takes something from you, gets caught, and you get your stuff back. (inb4 Seanchaidh complains about police keeping stolen property for themselves). You getting your property back is not punishment. If they go to jail, that would be the punishment, but giving your stuff back to you is independent of that, and independent of even a conviction. If it's like a car, and the title is in your name, and you didn't give it away and you want it back, you getting the car back is an aspect of justice in the abstract sense of it, but it is not an action of criminal justice requiring them to be convicted by a jury.

Similarly, consider trespassing. If someone is trespassing on private property, you don't need to go through the whole legal process prior to removing them from the premises. If you want to jail or fine them for trespassing, they are entitled to a diligent process of law. The process for removing trespassers, however, is the owner tells them to leave and they don't, then the police tell them to leave and they don't, then the police physically remove them. There's not warrants or judges or juries involved in that process, the maximum they are due is a chance to rectify the situation by leaving on their own.

In your mind, you obviously see deportation as a punishment that deserves the full consideration of the judicial system. You view it as though the country doing the deporting is declaring the deportees the most heinous of criminals to be punished by exile. But that isn't it. They're not supposed to be here. It's not jailing the car thief, it's giving the car back. It's not fining the trespasser, it's removing them from the property. It's not enacting punishment, it is reestablishing the legally valid status quo, and the due process for doing so is, for good reasons, tremendously less than for the enactment of punishments.

And if you stop thinking about the US (the imaginary hellscape in your mind that has little connection to reality) and consider any other nation, I guarantee you can understand this.

All of this shows you still haven't grasped the basic nature of the complaint.

Deportation is not, in itself, a punishment. Someone's allowed period of presence may end, then if they overstay, deportation would be merely bringing the situation back in line with the original intent. You spend all this time irrelevantly defending the principle of legal deportation, but that's not what we're here objecting to.

That's not what happened to these people. There was no notice of any change in status; some of their statuses, allowing them to be in the country legally, were still in effect. Then they were given no opportunity to move themselves, or told anything had changed, they were just apprehended. Then they weren't merely deported, but imprisoned and tortured.

And you know as well as i do, the government envisioned this as punitive: this is why they continually slandered the people as murderers, rapists and gangsters, without their guilt ever having been established (or even convincingly evidenced). They paid for their incarceration, not merely their removal.

 

[BrawlMan]

Bill Gates and Musk in Epstein Files
​

 

[tstorm823]

That's not what happened to these people.

As you squish together millions of people for whom that is precisely the case, hundreds that were transferred from one prison to another, and like 2 for which the process may have failed.

99.9999% success rate is pretty good.

 

[Silvanus]

As you squish together millions of people for whom that is precisely the case, hundreds that were transferred from one prison to another, and like 2 for which the process may have failed.

99.9999% success rate is pretty good.

As you are well aware, we are discussing a specific instance in which over a hundred Venezuelans-- many of them in the US legally, without having broken any rules, and without any notice that their status had changed-- were apprehended and imprisoned. Not just deported. Imprisoned, and some subsequently tortured. And such was not a mistake, as suggested by your "success rate" comment, but a deliberate act that you defended.

Your reply is a little like responding to news of a spree-murder with: "Think of all the people he didn't kill! A 99%+ success rate is great!"

 

[Agema]

Are you aware that your own country, post-Brexit, was negotiating a free-trade agreement with the US in 2020, had it fall to the side during the Biden administration, and then brought back into talks with Trump 2, with a smaller package for specific goods enacted already in the spring? And now you are receiving more US exports than a year ago. And total US export volume maintained roughly its previous growth rate even while diversifying away from trade with China?

Oh Christ. There's so much stupidity there it will take ages to unpick, so this is going to be brief.

The overall principle is the difference between short-term and long-term impacts.

US exports hold up, because Trump threatens some countries to buy American in the short-term. US exports to the UK grew; but UK exports to the USA decreased 2025, likely because tariffs. The 2025 mini-deal was in US beef and alcohol to the USA, and UK steel, aluminium and cars to the USA butUS beef and alcohol trade volumes don't come close to explaining the increase in trade, so the trade increase doesn't have anything to do with the tariff reduction. Never mind that the growth rate of total trade between the UK and USA in 2025 was the third lowest in the last 10 years (and one of those years was 2020). So, summary, your figures mean pretty much fuck all.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Not so in American jurisprudence.

https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1638&context=faculty_scholarship

And what part of due process aren't immigrants being granted? I'm not reading all 30+ pages. I don't see how immigrants can't be deported because of substantive due process nor being denied procedural due process.

Obviously. Yet federal court found that these people had been denied the process they were due. And you argued at the time that they weren't entitled to 'due process' at all.

What ruling? And has that ruling been appealed/overturned? Or was that a misinterpretation of a law that is no longer being misinterpreted? Are you claiming that courts have told DHS/ICE that you can't do XYZ and they are still doing it and just don't care? Because that is not happening. Didn't you and tstorm argue about this and you only found like a handful (if that many) that actually had legit due process claims?

 

[tstorm823]

As you are well aware, we are discussing a specific instance in which over a hundred Venezuelans-- many of them in the US legally, without having broken any rules, and without any notice that their status had changed-- were apprehended and imprisoned. Not just deported. Imprisoned, and some subsequently tortured. And such was not a mistake, as suggested by your "success rate" comment, but a deliberate act that you defended.

Nope.

The people sent were all suspected gang members. Precisely one was apprehended, to much public controversy, that I am aware of. The rest were already in the custody of either prisons or CBP before being sent.

You really insist on not understanding this situation.

 

[tstorm823]

So, summary, your figures mean pretty much fuck all.

Your figures said trade between the countries is growing, yet you try to argue that the policy has sent countries running from trade with the US. Just use reason, please.

 

[Hades]

Bill Gates and Musk in Epstein Files
​

Its funny Gates was always seen as the higher breed of criminal. Not desirable or good per se, but at least not completely psychotic and a card carrying Nazi like Elon. Then the Epstein files show the only real difference between the two men is the PR strategy.

 

[BrawlMan]

Black Panthers vs. MAGA/ICE. MAGA ain't shit.
​

 

[Silvanus]

What ruling? And has that ruling been appealed/overturned? Or was that a misinterpretation of a law that is no longer being misinterpreted? Are you claiming that courts have told DHS/ICE that you can't do XYZ and they are still doing it and just don't care? Because that is not happening. Didn't you and tstorm argue about this and you only found like a handful (if that many) that actually had legit due process claims?

Supreme Court, A.A.R.P. V Trump;

"Under these circumstances, notice roughly 24 hours before removal, devoid of information about how to exercise due process rights to contest that removal, surely does not pass muster."

"To be clear, we decide today only that the detainees are entitled to more notice than was given on April 18".

Supreme Court, Trump V J.G.G.;

"The detainees’ rights against summary removal, however, are not currently in dispute. The Government expressly agrees that “TdA members subject to removal under the Alien Enemies Act get judicial review.”"

"The notice must be afforded within a reasonable time and in such a manner as will allow them to actually seek habeas relief in the proper venue before such removal occurs."

 

[Silvanus]

Nope.

The people sent were all suspected gang members. Precisely one was apprehended, to much public controversy, that I am aware of. The rest were already in the custody of either prisons or CBP before being sent.

You really insist on not understanding this situation.

"Suspected" on the basis of innocuous tattoos or being in photos with others, remember. But your willingness to ignore 'innocent until proven guilty' in matters where someone ends up in max security prison is noted.

And no, plenty more than 1 weren't in custody. You've already been given sources on their statuses.

 

[BrawlMan]

​

 

[tstorm823]

"Suspected" on the basis of innocuous tattoos or being in photos with others, remember. But your willingness to ignore 'innocent until proven guilty' in matters where someone ends up in max security prison is noted.

And no, plenty more than 1 weren't in custody. You've already been given sources on their statuses.

You go in circles, being wrong every step of the way, and it's really not worth the effort.

 

[tippy2k2]

Omar said "At least in Somalia, we execute our pedophiles"

The RNC says she said we should execute Trump

What did the RNC mean by this...?

 

[Gergar12]

Black Panthers vs. MAGA/ICE. MAGA ain't shit.
​

The fact that ICE is de-facto another US military sized force like the Iranian IRGC, or the Venezuelan Collectivos is pretty dangerous. That's step somewhere on getting the US to potential civil war. Going to Europe to provide protection when the US already has other agencies. Wearing masks, having high salaries relative to even the FBI, insanity. They aren't buying companies yet, but buying entire warehouses in say Pennsylvania to put people which basically means they want to deport likely millions to tens of millions.

And for what, so that a few Spanish speakers who don't want to learn the language, or form semi-ethnic enclaves, or possibly go to college at lower rates can be deported, but risk killing the power the US has isn't worth it.

Almost everyone to everyone needs to be fired, and the agency needs to be flushed, and replaced with a much smaller agency.

 

[Silvanus]

You go in circles, being wrong every step of the way, and it's really not worth the effort.

I'm forced to return to things that have already been said before, when you repeat falsehoods.

In addition: I fail to see how some being in custody justifies their imprisonment without trial or charge. Some were apprehended when attending routine appointments, as requested by authorities; they had nonetheless broken no rules.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Almost everyone to everyone needs to be fired, and the agency needs to be flushed, and replaced with a much smaller agency.

Or not replaced, it's a fairly recent institution, the US has done without it for most of it's history.