Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

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Hades

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It definitely wouldn't.

US independence was an inevitability. The UK is a small island and the USA is huge and they are separated by 3000 miles. The very different positions of the two would guarantee that the interests of the two would diverge (indeed the revolution was because they had diverged sufficiently in the 1700s). Although I could imagine maybe the UK, if it had been able to devolve (as it did with Australia or Canada) could have split it into multiple independent countries. And even if somehow they had remained united, then it would be more accurate to say that the UK would be American, because the centre of gravity would move to the place that had the vast majority of the people.

And in a way, the UK wasn't necessarily that bothered because the North American colonies didn't contribute much to the UK's coffers. Indeed, were in many ways a drain, because the UK had to pay to defend them despite getting little back (that's part of why it was trying to tax the USA and thus sparked the rebellion). The UK was far more interested in India, which was where there was a real fortune to be plundered.
Sure though in the how and when it did occur France was vital. One could also argue the Nazi's where always destined to lose or collapse under their own ineptitude after a victory, but that wouldn't stop Americans from tooting their own horn about WW2 either.
 

Agema

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Sure though in the how and when it did occur France was vital. One could also argue the Nazi's where always destined to lose or collapse under their own ineptitude after a victory, but that wouldn't stop Americans from tooting their own horn about WW2 either.
I would tend to the view that the USA stopped the French having to speak Russian rather than German. Because it's pretty clear which direction the eastern front was going well before the USA got any boots on the ground in North Africa/Europe. Granted, I think the USSR would not necessarily have invaded France and imposed a puppet regime, but it would have been the dominant influence everyone had to get along with.
 

tstorm823

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This has been explained to you already. Do you also have a problem with reading comprehension?
Silvanus posts article with misleading headline.
I point out the headline is misleading.
Silvanus tries to talk about a different article instead.
I circle us back to the one he posted where the headline was misleading.
You try to tell me that I just don't understand Silvanus' point made before linking that article.
I point out that the website has removed the misleading title.
You accuse me of criticizing the article.
I remind you that I've been critical of the headline.
You defend the headline.
I remind you it's already been taken down.

And now you think I have a problem with reading comprehension. You are silly. You think I've gotten something horribly wrong when pointing out something is click bait. Your passionate defense here is for clickbait headlines.
 

Thaluikhain

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I would tend to the view that the USA stopped the French having to speak Russian rather than German. Because it's pretty clear which direction the eastern front was going well before the USA got any boots on the ground in North Africa/Europe. Granted, I think the USSR would not necessarily have invaded France and imposed a puppet regime, but it would have been the dominant influence everyone had to get along with.
The US was supplying the USSR, though, if not for that the Great Patriotic War would have struggled more.
 

Silvanus

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And now you think I have a problem with reading comprehension.
Yes. And your little potted summary there-- rife with errors and recycled points that have already fallen apart-- is further indication.
 

tstorm823

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Yes. And your little potted summary there-- rife with errors and recycled points that have already fallen apart-- is further indication.
It's a forum, anyone can read the entire exchange. You can say things have fallen apart, but the whole back and forth is right back there for anyone to read.

Hey Silvanus! You spread shameless clickbait. That's still the truth, and always will be.
 

tstorm823

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You are pathetic.

Not least because having an ego too fragile to admit fault also makes you behave incredibly stupidly.
I am the only one of the 3 of us to ever concede that the other is right. You are projecting. This is the most minor point, and neither of you can say "well, the headline wasn't the best representation of the actual interview in context." How fragile must you be to still stand in absolute defense of a headline the site itself has changed?
 

Agema

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I am the only one of the 3 of us to ever concede that the other is right. You are projecting. This is the most minor point, and neither of you can say "well, the headline wasn't the best representation of the actual interview in context." How fragile must you be to still stand in absolute defense of a headline the site itself has changed?
The article was updated with more information, as explained to you. The original headline was accurate to the original article, and the updated headline accurate to the updated article, as explained to you.
 

tstorm823

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The article was updated with more information, as explained to you. The original headline was accurate to the original article, and the updated headline accurate to the updated article, as explained to you.
I read the original article to find out the headline was crap. They explained the meaning of the conversation in the article, while isolating those few choice words in the headline. If all the information they had supported the implication they put front and center, at least one could say they were ignorant, which is forgivable even if your job is to inform people. If anyone who reads the article learns from the article itself that the headline is bullcrap, the headline is not accurate to the original article, and the click bait is assuredly deliberate.
 

Agema

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I read the original article to find out the headline was crap.
"Brent crude hits $116 a barrel after Trump says he wants to ‘take the oil in Iran’"

Did the Brent crude hit $116 a barrel? Yes.
Did that occur after Trump said he wanted to take the oil in Iran? Yes.
The headline is therefore factually true.

We could then go a step further because the article suggests a causal link. So let's ask whether the implied link is reasonable, and it surely is reasonable given that Trump's utterances on the Iran war have, multiple times, contributed to oil price changes (including a cotroversy about potential insider trading). I don't demand a headline be perfect, but as this is both factually true and the implied cause and effect is credible, it's fine.

It's only a problem for you because you have a problem. That would be the prejudice you have, that you explained to us your very self. The one you are so blind to that you explained precisely what the prejudice was at the same time you claimed you didn't have a prejudice. Which I can forgive, because it's the nature of prejudice to blind you to prejudice.
 

thebobmaster

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How does that saying go? "When the facts change, I dig my heels in and double down, refusing to adjust my views?" Something like that?
 
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tstorm823

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We could then go a step further
You're taking too many steps further and skipping the first step: what does a regular person seeing that headline think it means? Words can have different meanings, sentences can lead to different conclusions, and a good effective headline will lead the reader to have a broad idea of the full information.

There are thousands, if not millions of people who read that, didn't read the article, and then went around complaining that Trump is just trying to steal their oil and make himself richer. That is the prejudice they were playing towards. It doesn't matter how much you rationalize the technical accuracy, it was written to mislead people. A bit like a line graph with different scales for different lines that exaggerates one thing and downplays another, something can be technically accurate while decieving anyone who takes it at a glance without careful analysis.
 

Agema

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You're taking too many steps further and skipping the first step: what does a regular person seeing that headline think it means?
😂

Unfortunately, just because you subjectively magic up an interpretation from your own personal biases doesn't mean you can insist some hypothetical "regular person" (they don't really exist in the way you imply) would interpret the same.

Secondly, were it the desire of the Guardian to trick their readers into thinking Trump wanted to steal oil, when it updated the article... it wouldn't have changed the headline, would it?
 

tstorm823

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Secondly, were it the desire of the Guardian to trick their readers into thinking Trump wanted to steal oil, when it updated the article... it wouldn't have changed the headline, would it?
Correct, the goal is not to trick people, that is just a means to an end. The goal is to grab people's attention, to bait the clicks, even if the best bait is deceptive. Nothing is gained by leaving the misleading headline up longer than it is actually headline news.

There's not some global conspiracy to lie about Trump at all costs to make sure you hate him. There is, however, an obvious profit motive in taking advantage of people who already do hate him. Having a captured partisan audience makes that very easy to exploit.
 

Silvanus

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[...] to trick people, that is just a means to an end.

[...] the best bait is deceptive.

[...]misleading headline
Endless repetition of your grievance will not get you past the simple fact: he did say it. The headline is accurate. That is the end of it.

You can insist that he meant something else, based on your own assumptions about his use of the word 'take' in other contexts. But nobody is obligated to repeat or reflect your assumptions and interpretations. Why the hell would they be?

They reported his own words, and his own words damned him. Just as his own words ("make a fortune!" "Keep the oil?" "End their civilisation!" "Bomb the bridges and power stations!" "Send them to the stone age!") constantly make him appear both inconsistent and fucking deranged.
 

Seanchaidh

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