Funny events in anti-woke world

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bluegate

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A) At what level is "Hitler declared the government to be overthrown" a protest or riot?"
B) The one person who you blame was the leader who directly planned and participated, not "well, his lies inspired people".
Sorry, wasn't planning on actually making that post.

At first I was thinking about it and wrote it down, but then I removed the comment and closed the page, came back and saw Cicada 5's post and replied to their post, not noticing that the website had saved my previous draft.
 

Silvanus

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In that case, this fund is irrelevant. Nothing has meaningfully changed in your eyes, we moved from "Trump controlled people are insufficient oversight" to "other Trump controlled people are insufficient oversight".
A bizarre zero-sum way of thinking.

Imagine we were discussing security procedures at a bank. Someone manages to game the system and transfer a million dollars to his mates.

Your argument is equivalent to saying, "well since those security processes didn't work that time, nothing has changed when he transferred all that money. He may as well have left it and transferred 100$ a million separate times. Therefore the transfer must have been legitimate and fair".

Or maybe... safeguards can exist that present obstacles, but can still sometimes be overcome. And maybe its easier to beat the system once than to do it a million times. And maybe just because an alternative method of corruption seems to make more sense to you, doesn't mean nothing else can be corrupt.
 

tstorm823

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Or maybe... safeguards can exist that present obstacles, but can still sometimes be overcome.
If it's a situation of him ordering people to give him a settlement on the lawsuit, that isn't safeguards and obstacles. That's the argument for corruption, that's why you keep saying Trump is in control and scoffing when I suggest there is opposition. If the DOJ is a safeguard that presents an obstacle, if it's like safety practices at the bank working against Trump the bank robber, then Trump isn't in control of those people like you are suggesting.
 

thebobmaster

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I'd love, LOVE to hear arguments about how this is anything other than xenophobia and actually justified, if I didn't have pretty much every party arguing for immigration "crackdowns" recently on my very short ignore list.

 

Silvanus

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If it's a situation of him ordering people to give him a settlement on the lawsuit, that isn't safeguards and obstacles. That's the argument for corruption, that's why you keep saying Trump is in control and scoffing when I suggest there is opposition.
More zero-sum stuff. Someone can direct an organisation to do something, if that organisation is under their purview. This doesn't mean they could therefore always direct them to do everything they want, an unlimited number of times, just as easily.

You're approaching this in a strangely absolutist way, as if corruption, control, oversight etc are either 100% or 0%.

If the DOJ is a safeguard that presents an obstacle, if it's like safety practices at the bank working against Trump the bank robber, then Trump isn't in control of those people like you are suggesting.
Ever heard of an inside man? Someone with codes, privileged access to the place they aim to defraud or rob etc? One might say they are able to control the systems in place to prevent theft.

Your reply suggests you would expect him to ignore any opportunity to take a gigantic sum of money, in favour of endlessly taking much much smaller amounts, assuming he will always have exactly the same ease. And that this somehow proves anyone who did take a gigantic sum must be innocent.
 

tstorm823

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Your reply suggests you would expect him to ignore any opportunity to take a gigantic sum of money, in favour of endlessly taking much much smaller amounts, assuming he will always have exactly the same ease.
Is that not precisely what happened?

Question: who do you think designed this fund, and why?
 

tstorm823

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? When? Trump opted for a huge sum, and thieves/ inside men also often opt for huge sums.
A sum that can only be handed out in smaller increments that need to be individually applied for and approved, including by someone appointed by congress.
It was negotiated between Trump's lawyers and those of the Trump DOJ. Why?
Negotiated implies oppositional interests, not single person unilaterally deciding his own benefit.
 

Silvanus

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A sum that can only be handed out in smaller increments that need to be individually applied for and approved, including by someone appointed by congress.
Ok, you're going for a completely different approach now then, arguing that the 5-man panel is sufficient safeguarding, or at least equivalent to making endless individual submissions to the primary judgement fund.

AFAIR, they're all to be appointed by AG Todd Blanche, Trump's appointee who previously defended him in his criminal case concerning the hush money paid to Stormy Daniels.

One member is appointed by the AG in consultation with congressional leaders.

No, once the 1.7bn is set aside in a fund that's specifically exempt from safeguarding rules and under Trump's appointees' control, its his/theirs to dole out at whim.

Negotiated implies oppositional interests, not single person unilaterally deciding his own benefit.
Semantic. "Decided", then. Though i don't think "negotiated" implies opposition, but merely more than one consideration. And i'm sure the DOJ lawyers also had to consider things like the terrible optics.
 
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tstorm823

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Ok, you're going for a completely different approach now then,
Well, you are wrong in many ways, I've just been ignoring them because the obvious logical contradiction makes every other problem moot.
Semantic. "Decided", then. Though i don't think "negotiated" implies opposition, but merely more than one consideration. And i'm sure the DOJ lawyers also had to consider things like the terrible optics.
So then they could "decide" to pay out Trump and his allies as much and as often as they want, right?
 

Silvanus

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Well, you are wrong in many ways, I've just been ignoring them because the obvious logical contradiction makes every other problem moot.
Lol sure. The "I've already won and everyone secretly agrees with me" dance is always such a dead giveaway for you.

So then they could "decide" to pay out Trump and his allies as much and as often as they want, right?
Not necessarily, no.

Gaming a system once doesn't somehow mean one could game it ad infinitum with the same ease (As has already been explained to you). Regardless, i fail to see how alternative methods of corruption existing would exonerate him.

You are essentially arguing that because they took a lot of money at once, it cannot be suspicious or corrupt. As if the magnitude of the fund is somehow a mark of pure intent. Its such an utterly bizarre line of thought.
 

tstorm823

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Gaming a system once doesn't somehow mean one could game it ad infinitum with the same ease (As has already been explained to you). Regardless, i fail to see how alternative methods of corruption existing would exonerate him.

You are essentially arguing that because they took a lot of money at once, it cannot be suspicious or corrupt. As if the magnitude of the fund is somehow a mark of pure intent. Its such an utterly bizarre line of thought.
It's not about exonerating and purity, it's about trying to understand what actually happened. You're waiting for me to prove innocence, not that you would back down in the face of proof, but I'm telling you that your conclusion is illogical to begin with.

If Donald Trump directed the DOJ beneath him to settle a lawsuit with him, for his benefit, in a way that they would not have if he hadn't directed them to do so, that is corruption. Whether the amount is $2 or $2 billion, whether it's all at once or in increments, none of that is particularly relevant to the question of corruption, if that is what it is.

The question is why do you think that's what happened? We both know the answer is that you want that to be the case, but actually think about it. If Trump wanted to do that, use his power as president to pay himself off, is this what that would look like? I don't think so. If DOJ officials were to offer Trump a settlement that did not involve enriching him directly, is this what that would look like? Absolutely.

I would bet without hesitation that in a couple years, if this fund ever actually gets going at all, it will have been blasted with request from insane internet lefties claiming Trump persecuted them, it'll fall apart, and nearly all of the fund will be returned to the DOJ unused. It's such an incredibly stupid way of trying to pay off allies, it doesn't make any sense to think that was the intent of whoever formulated it. I'd just about guarantee this was formulated by people at the DOJ to get Trump to drop the suit for nothing but his name on something new.
 

Seanchaidh

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If Donald Trump directed the DOJ beneath him to settle a lawsuit with him, for his benefit, in a way that they would not have if he hadn't directed them to do so, that is corruption.
It would also be corruption if the DOJ was not directed to do so, but did so because of loyalty to the president. Remember Ken Starr? This is the sort of thing that begs for an independent counsel.
 

Asita

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A plaintiff went against a defendant that he himself controlled, and came away with a $1.7bn slush fund for political allies. Its one of the most spectacularly brazen examples of corruption, and I expect that even you're a little embarrassed by it. Reportedly even congressional Republicans are.
It's actually a fair bit worse than that.

Trump sued the IRS, and the court signaled concern about whether the case satisfied Article III adverseness requirements. (TLDR, Trump was suing the government he leads and whose justice department has explicitly been ordered to act as if Trump was their primary client)

The judge issued a sua sponte order and had scheduled a hearing to determine whether it even could meet the basic requirement of the existence of adverseness - which is to say "a dispute between parties who face each other in an adversary proceeding" - given both the aforementioned circumstances and that even the plaintiff had all but bragged that (in his own words) it amounted to trying to "work out a settlement with myself."

Rather than facing that, Trump almost immediately withdrew the lawsuit. And then after it was withdrawn, Todd Blanche simply directed the Department of the Treasury to transfer $1,776,000,000 to a separate account. Trump et al have been mischaracterizing that as a settlement by the IRS when in fact it appears to have instead been directed to the Treasury department by DOJ leadership on behalf of Trump rather than an actual arm's length-settlement by the IRS.

And let's lay that out directly because it bears repetition:
1) The executive branch effectively controlled both sides of the dispute,​
2) The Department of Justice was called out as pointedly failing to so much as raise even obvious and dispositive defenses that it typically used such as the claims being barred by the statute of limitations, and the suit naming the wrong defendants, increasing the suspicion that the case was effectively collusive in nature.​
3) The case was withdrawn almost immediately after the judge signaled attention to a very real concern of threshold scrutiny.​
4) After the case was withdrawn, the DOJ leadership appears to have simply directed the outcome (in a way that uncomfortably brings to mind Habba's infamous Bedminster incident), and that outcome came about before the court could even resolve foundational jurisdictional concerns about whether there could constitutionally be a genuine case or controversy at all.​

Combine that with the conspicuous $1.776 billion figure? That looks very much like the arrangement was politically choreographed. And that's without even accounting for the apparent double speak in painting it as a governmental fund for 'victims of politicized investigations' but also explicitly stating that it is not subject to governmental oversight, liability, or responsibility and covers things like paying administrative assistants. Never mind that it's conspicuously designed with a "use it or lose it" deadline of December 1, 2028, just one month before Trump's term of office ends.

Moreover, part of the dictated terms is that the IRS drop any and all investigations into Trump, which...well, it runs headfirst into 26 U.S. Code § 7217, which makes it a federal crime for anyone in the executive to request, directly or indirectly, that the IRS conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer with respect to the tax liability of such taxpayer.

Regardless of the nitpicking we can make about whether or not it applies due to being directed by the Attorney General (which under the circumstances would arguably still be a brazen corruption of the letter of the law and in no means reflective of its spirit, especially not when said acting Attorney General is acting more like a personal attorney), the fact would still remain that by any reasonable definition, the dropping of audits was improperly included as a deal-sweetener, very clearly not reflective of legal merit.
 
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tstorm823

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Sure, good idea. And you and other things like you will surely pick up the slack?

Or wait, no, compensate with more beautiful tariffs.
It's already the case that almost half the country pays zero in income tax. It's called tax credits and the standard deduction. This is not a visionary idea, it's already the case.
 

Silvanus

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It's not about exonerating and purity, it's about trying to understand what actually happened. You're waiting for me to prove innocence [...]
No, i'm not. You pointed to things as indicators that the settlement is unsuspicious. I am explaining that they're meaningless.

If Donald Trump directed the DOJ beneath him to settle a lawsuit with him, for his benefit, in a way that they would not have if he hadn't directed them to do so, that is corruption. Whether the amount is $2 or $2 billion, whether it's all at once or in increments, none of that is particularly relevant to the question of corruption, if that is what it is.
Correct.

The question is why do you think that's what happened?
Because the settlement is enormously beneficial to his political allies, and because he has enormous control over both parties in the suit. Motive, means, opportunity.

If Trump wanted to do that, use his power as president to pay himself off, is this what that would look like? I don't think so. If DOJ officials were to offer Trump a settlement that did not involve enriching him directly, is this what that would look like? Absolutely.
Oh, he's pursued many different methods of enriching himself and his allies through his office: breaches of the emoluments clause, dodgy hires and contracts etc. But few methods could accomplish almost $2bn in one swoop from the public purse with no safeguarding.

If an independent DOJ wanted to offer something that didn't enrich Trump's allies, then it wouldn't be such an obscene amount, it wouldn't be set aside for his pet project (that had nothing to do with the suit!), it wouldn't specify that it can't be safeguarded, it wouldn't be entirely under the control of Trump's political appointees, etc etc etc.

I would bet without hesitation that in a couple years, if this fund ever actually gets going at all, it will have been blasted with request from insane internet lefties claiming Trump persecuted them, it'll fall apart, and nearly all of the fund will be returned to the DOJ unused. It's such an incredibly stupid way of trying to pay off allies, it doesn't make any sense to think that was the intent of whoever formulated it. I'd just about guarantee this was formulated by people at the DOJ to get Trump to drop the suit for nothing but his name on something new.
Appeal to Incredulity.
 

Silvanus

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The judge issued a sua sponte order and had scheduled a hearing to determine whether it even could meet the basic requirement of the existence of adverseness - which is to say "a dispute between parties who face each other in an adversary proceeding" - given both the aforementioned circumstances and that even the plaintiff had all but bragged that (in his own words) it amounted to trying to "work out a settlement with myself."

Rather than facing that, Trump almost immediately withdrew the lawsuit. And then after it was withdrawn, Todd Blanche simply directed the Department of the Treasury to transfer $1,776,000,000 to a separate account. Trump et al have been mischaracterizing that as a settlement by the IRS when in fact it appears to have instead been directed to the Treasury department by DOJ leadership on behalf of Trump rather than an actual arm's length-settlement by the IRS.
Fucking hell, i hadn't appreciated that. So not even a real settlement. The AG can just order billions in public money to be used to pay off political allies. Real checks-and-balances country ya got there.