TLOU2 Review Thread

[CriticalGaming]

Question for those who may know more

Spoiler: Dina and the ending

So why when Ellie comes back has everyone left?
Is this ever explained like "Oh we have to move on to a new area to find supplies" or "Oh we have to lave because it's no longer safe here" or even "Oh we had to leave because we needed to find help for this character". Because I've not heard a why and it just seems like it was done to kick Ellie when she's down by having everyone gone.

Simple answer is Dina left because Ellie didn't listen to her plea. That's all.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Simple answer is Dina left because Ellie didn't listen to her plea. That's all.

So she left alone with her kid or with Tommy??

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So she left alone with her kid or with Tommy??

I'm assuming Dina just went back to the main settlement as the house/farm was at least a bit away or on the outskirts.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I'm assuming Dina just went back to the main settlement as the house/farm was at least a bit away or on the outskirts.

So could Ellie not just go back there too?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So could Ellie not just go back there too?

Probably...She probably could but I'm guessing Dina's not going to want any part of her (which was what the empty house was representing) and Tommy would be pissed if she told him she found Abby and let her go. She could just say that she never found Abby or did kill her (the bigger lie) so she wouldn't be estranged by both of them (and then basically be another Joel/Ellie situation with Tommy but with Ellie lying).

 

[Gyrobot]

So I finished watching a Youtube movie of the game. And... I don't see what the hubbub is all about either positively or negatively. For the most part, it's FINE from a story perspective and I'm also assuming from a gameplay perspective (cuz Naughty Dog gameplay is "fine"). The main problem is just the story being about too much and too many characters, along with scenes just feeling out of place (and not because of flashbacks but when they were shown). The last scene with Joel really needed to be shown before that last section because it at least gives some motivation/reasoning to Ellie's decision, which felt completely unwarranted with the player's knowledge at the time. It also just feels like you don't know enough about the WLF and Scars conflict to really care what's going on with that or know enough about the WLF themselves and the their internal issues with Abby's people like Owen and their relationship with Isaac. Also, that stupid plan to go through the heart of the conflict to get a boat when I'm pretty damn positive going back to the boat you came on was the path of less resistance. It was done to setup a climatic scene/setpiece and lots of movies do it too but it was dumber than most. The strongest parts of the story was easily the Joel/Ellie aspect over what happens at the end of the 1st game. That's really what the game should've been about but I guess you can't make 3rd-person cover shooter/stealth gameplay loop around that so it had to be a revenge story.

And the game really doesn't say anything profound about revenge or anything other than the old saying "an eye an eye makes the whole world blind". Freaking John Wick says more about revenge than TLOU2. The whole thing/scene that kicks off the revenge story isn't even that shocking honestly. Again, John Wick's scene that leads to revenge is far more shocking and the fucking trailer tells you what happened. Can we get video game reviewers that are at least halfway decent at criticism? If this was a movie, it would probably be somewhere in the 40-60% liked area on RottenTomatoes and probably no critic would be proclaiming this a masterpiece by any means. I really don't understand how video games get so fucking overrated by "professional" reviewers.

Spoilers:

Spoiler

Some thoughts about specific scenes:

-The end fight between Ellie and Abby was pretty dumb. It felt like it was trying to be like the Solid Snake/Liquid Snake fight at the end of MGS4 but it was totally not earned here. They could've done something pretty interesting with that scene from a gameplay perspective and kept switching between Ellie and Abby as the controlled character (not that that would've made it work though). Also, the scene mainly just shows Ellie's a massive hypocrite as Ellie does the same thing Abby does in the theater fight by grabbing the Scar boy and threatening him like Abby with Dina.

-As I said above Ellie going after Abby like a year later is just stupid. You can understand seeing Joel killed before Ellie's eyes would prompt her to go on a revenge kick even though her and Joel weren't on the best terms at that time because probably just about everybody has that feeling of wanting to get someone back for wronging you in the heat of the moment. But once you have a year or whatever along with a family, you should come to the mindset that it's no longer worth it (especially after what happen on your 1st fucking revenge attempt).

Its...middlebrow content for an audience who's main staple is call of duty tier dude bro shooters. Not the gamer who has a lot of experience involving niche games who have been in a proverbial pecker war over gaming as art.

 

[stroopwafel]

The story of TLoU2 is not so much about revenge but more about pain and what it does to people. It's thematically very similar to a Pascal Laugier movie or some other French cinema and not some juvenile Hollywood flick. I think it's absolutely terrific and masterfully executed but I'm also not surprised it's disliked by the average gamer whose cultural taste doesn't exceed much further than the Avengers movies or superhero comics. That is why I also think TLoU2 is an important step in the maturation of the medium by providing this kind of story and this kind of delivery that doesn't specifically cater to the usual audience that consists in large part of, given the metacritic and youtube reception, entitled man-children.

 

[Hades]

Still there is some truth as the alt right only want something pandering to their base desires. Patrick O Rourke got ratio because by the usual peanut gallery

I feel the gaming industry is trapped in a very destructive cycle. In a lot of ways TLOU2 really does resemble Gamergate a lot.

There is a large sub section that does hate TLOU2 for very dumb reasons. If there was really no hostility towards the trans community, woman or LGBTQ people then people would never have been screaming about those things for so long. For some players it really is unacceptable to have a gay woman as a protagonist or have a trans character be in an important position.

But we must also not forget that there is a lot of legitimate criticism. At best the story seems to be thoroughly cliche and conventional, and many decisions the writing makes comes off as clumsy and doomed to fail. People were never going to appreciate Joel's killer and making her a sociopath while also implying she's in the right isn't going to help with that.

But here's the problem in these sort of situations. The side that hates TLOU2, game media as a whole or inclusivity for the wrong reasons are louder. They are MUCH louder and easily find themselves dominating the conversation. Game media being so quick to call them out is understandable but it only exacerbate the issue. If these people can dominate the conversation and drown out the legitimate criticism long enough then the more legitimate complaints will eventually be lumpted in with the alt right complains. This leads to people with legitimate complains being ignored, ridiculed or even demonized. This in turn might make them radicalize and reach the conclusion that game media really is the enemy, that there really are groups out to ''ruin'' games and that any sign of ''wokeness'' is the first sign of danger.

And I don't think that's accidental. Some comments by the likes of Steve Bannon implies that this was actually a calculated tactic on their part to increase the Alt Rights sway over the gaming community and attract them to their cause. Its no coincidence that many Gamergate channels eventually mutated into Trump cheerleaders.

 

[laggyteabag]

I feel the gaming industry is trapped in a very destructive cycle. In a lot of ways TLOU2 really does resemble Gamergate a lot.

There is a large sub section that does hate TLOU2 for very dumb reasons. If there was really no hostility towards the trans community, woman or LGBTQ people then people would never have been screaming about those things for so long. For some players it really is unacceptable to have a gay woman as a protagonist or have a trans character be in an important position.

But we must also not forget that there is a lot of legitimate criticism. At best the story seems to be thoroughly cliche and conventional, and many decisions the writing makes comes off as clumsy and doomed to fail. People were never going to appreciate Joel's killer and making her a sociopath while also implying she's in the right isn't going to help with that.

But here's the problem in these sort of situations. The side that hates TLOU2, game media as a whole or inclusivity for the wrong reasons are louder. They are MUCH louder and easily find themselves dominating the conversation. Game media being so quick to call them out is understandable but it only exacerbate the issue. If these people can dominate the conversation and drown out the legitimate criticism long enough then the more legitimate complaints will eventually be lumpted in with the alt right complains. This leads to people with legitimate complains being ignored, ridiculed or even demonized. This in turn might make them radicalize and reach the conclusion that game media really is the enemy, that there really are groups out to ''ruin'' games and that any sign of ''wokeness'' is the first sign of danger.

And I don't think that's accidental. Some comments by the likes of Steve Bannon implies that this was actually a calculated tactic on their part to increase the Alt Rights sway over the gaming community and attract them to their cause. Its no coincidence that many Gamergate channels eventually mutated into Trump cheerleaders.

Pretty much this.

To me, its another The Last Jedi.

I have criticisms that I feel are legitimate. I did not enjoy this game as much as I would have liked, for a variety of reasons that I have explained elsewhere. Yet I don't want to be lumped in with the very vocal crowd, who are complaining about needing to play as women, or the LGBT representation, or those who refuse to call one of the characters anything but She-Hulk, or HERclues, or whatever, just because how dare Naughty Dog impliment a muscular woman.

I just didn't like the game too much, but I don't want to be labeled as a bigot, or a moron who just didnt get it, or some philistine who only likes "Avengers movies or superhero comics", or whatever, because that is apparently what people who don't like this game apparently think, and have my criticisms waived aside.

God, I hate it when this happens.

 

[Hawki]

I feel the gaming industry is trapped in a very destructive cycle. In a lot of ways TLOU2 really does resemble Gamergate a lot.

I think the film industry's in a similar position. Ghostbusters 2016, the Star Wars sequel trilogy...there's legitimate reasons to dislike these films, but one also has to distinguish them from the fringe.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I feel the gaming industry is trapped in a very destructive cycle. In a lot of ways TLOU2 really does resemble Gamergate a lot.

There is a large sub section that does hate TLOU2 for very dumb reasons. If there was really no hostility towards the trans community, woman or LGBTQ people then people would never have been screaming about those things for so long. For some players it really is unacceptable to have a gay woman as a protagonist or have a trans character be in an important position.

But we must also not forget that there is a lot of legitimate criticism. At best the story seems to be thoroughly cliche and conventional, and many decisions the writing makes comes off as clumsy and doomed to fail. People were never going to appreciate Joel's killer and making her a sociopath while also implying she's in the right isn't going to help with that.

But here's the problem in these sort of situations. The side that hates TLOU2, game media as a whole or inclusivity for the wrong reasons are louder. They are MUCH louder and easily find themselves dominating the conversation. Game media being so quick to call them out is understandable but it only exacerbate the issue. If these people can dominate the conversation and drown out the legitimate criticism long enough then the more legitimate complaints will eventually be lumpted in with the alt right complains. This leads to people with legitimate complains being ignored, ridiculed or even demonized. This in turn might make them radicalize and reach the conclusion that game media really is the enemy, that there really are groups out to ''ruin'' games and that any sign of ''wokeness'' is the first sign of danger.

And I don't think that's accidental. Some comments by the likes of Steve Bannon implies that this was actually a calculated tactic on their part to increase the Alt Rights sway over the gaming community and attract them to their cause. Its no coincidence that many Gamergate channels eventually mutated into Trump cheerleaders.

Ah the age old, blame everything on our boogeyman and call it a day tactic.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Pretty much this.

To me, its another The Last Jedi.

I have criticisms that I feel are legitimate. I did not enjoy this game as much as I would have liked, for a variety of reasons that I have explained elsewhere. Yet I don't want to be lumped in with the very vocal crowd, who are complaining about needing to play as women, or the LGBT representation, or those who refuse to call one of the characters anything but She-Hulk, or HERclues, or whatever, just because how dare Naughty Dog impliment a muscular woman.

I just didn't like the game too much, but I don't want to be labeled as a bigot, or a moron who just didnt get it, or some philistine who only likes "Avengers movies or superhero comics", or whatever, because that is apparently what people who don't like this game apparently think, and have my criticisms waived aside.

God, I hate it when this happens.

Congrats, that's what the other side wants. "You're not a bad person right? So just stay silent so you can be 'on the right side of history' and let us take care of everything." So I guess nothing should be criticized?

"Don't think, just consume"

 

[Hades]

Ah the age old, blame everything on our boogeyman and call it a day tactic.

Not....really? If anything I'm saying its the other side with the tactic and everyone else rather haplessly bumbling into it.

"Don't think, just consume"

I don't really think that's the issue. The problem is more that the silly culture was is preventing people from thinking on what's important.

Take Star Wars for instance. The sequels were crippled right out of the gate by there not being a single trace of worldbuilding and the villains all being wildly incompetent. But no one wants to talk about it. Instead of going into why the First Order are an abysmal set of antagonists everyone just wants to talk about admiral pinkhair or Rey being a mary sue.

 

[laggyteabag]

Congrats, that's what the other side wants. "You're not a bad person right? So just stay silent so you can be 'on the right side of history' and let us take care of everything." So I guess nothing should be criticized?

"Don't think, just consume"

Nah, fuck that.

I will say what I want to say, about the stuff I do or dont like, regardless of whether or not my overall opinion just so happens to allign with a particular cesspit of people, who are very vocal about a particular thing.

I just have confidence that the communities of people that I decide to share my thoughts with, are smart enough to not instantly think the worst of someone, just because they do or don't like something, that they feel differently about.

I just hate it when a particular viewpoint becomes effectively "blacklisted", because a very vocal group of angry people, decide to become very vocal about a particular thing, and all corresponding opinions - loose or not - all get lumped into the same bullshit category, regardless of their legitimacy.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Not....really? If anything I'm saying its the other side with the tactic and everyone else rather haplessly bumbling into it.

From what I've seen, it's the other side that's doing it and everyone just goes along with it because, "Only a racist/sexist/homophobe thinks this product is bad, I'm not a racist/sexist/homophobe so it must be good, or I should at least say it's good even if it isn't."

I don't really think that's the issue. The problem is more that the silly culture was is preventing people from thinking on what's important.

Take Star Wars for instance. The sequels were crippled right out of the gate by there not being a single trace of worldbuilding and the villains all being wildly incompetent. But no one wants to talk about it. Instead of going into why the First Order are an abysmal set of antagonists everyone just wants to talk about admiral pinkhair or Rey being a mary sue.

Except people DO talk about that. The entire argument against "SJW nonsense" is that they use minorities as a shield to deflect criticism. That movies are being made where is doesn't matter what the actual quality of it is, it's whether it's championing the right politics.

 

[Hawki]

So, out of morbid curiosity, is Abby actually trans or not?

I just have confidence that the communities of people that I decide to share my thoughts with, are smart enough to not instantly think the worst of someone, just because they do or don't like something, that they feel differently about.

You have Korra as your avatar. Legend of Korra is terrible. Obviously you're terrible. Stop being terrible! And don't tell me I'm terrible, you terrible, terrible person, with terrible, terrible taste!

 

[Specter Von Baren]

So, out of morbid curiosity, is Abby actually trans or not?

I am wondering if it isn't possible that she was in fact trans before the leaks happened and they changed things in the game because people in the trans community felt having a trans woman be the one to kill Joel would bring undue hate on them. But that's my conspiracy theory and I don't really think it's true.

 

[CriticalGaming]

So, out of morbid curiosity, is Abby actually trans or not?

I am wondering if it isn't possible that she was in fact trans before the leaks happened and they changed things in the game because people in the trans community felt having a trans woman be the one to kill Joel would bring undue hate on them. But that's my conspiracy theory and I don't really think it's true.

I don't think she was ever planned to be trans honestly. Because those leaks didn't come out with enough time to really change and rerecord a chunk of the story the way it would have to be. I think some wires got crossed between Abby and Lev in the leaks.

Also I think that Druckman doesn't understand what people mean by "strong female characters" because Abby is like the literal embodiment of that and that's not what that phrase means technically. Or maybe technically it does but that's not the implied meaning......one of those is true.

 

[Hawki]

Also I think that Druckman doesn't understand what people mean by "strong female characters"

Am I alone in thinking that this is a phrase that should have been retired long ago?

 

[CriticalGaming]

Am I alone in thinking that this is a phrase that should have been retired long ago?

Nope. I never thought it made sense because strong female characters have always been a thing. But you know........people don't like to do research or look at history these days.