National Guard called into Minneapolis

[ObsidianJones]

Since all the JK Rowling and OKKK talk seems to have trailed off and I have little to say about early anarchist and communist thinkers and how their writings decades ago are related to the working use of the terms today, may as well try to light a new fire under this thread.

So, just to be clear, the argument for #BlackLivesMatter having the racial lens it does is because black folks are disproportionately harmed by the criminal justice system, right? They're 6.7x as likely to be incarcerated, 4.4x as likely to be killed by police, about 3x as likely to have their vehicle searched in a traffic stop, 19% more likely to be convicted if charged with a felony, 6x more likely to be arrested for misdemeanor possession of marijuana, get 10% longer prison sentences after controlling for all other factors, were 7x as likely to be "stopped and frisked" in New York, and are 12x as likely to be wrongfully convicted of a crime. That cover most of the bases?

Except that lens isn't acceptable and useful solely because of the disproportionate treatment, but because of who that treatment is against. I could point out another demographic group where those numbers are 14x, 96.5% of all victims, 5x, 165%, 10x, 63%, 11.5x, and almost all of them compared to the "majority" group in that demographic, respectively. But if I were to try hashtagging about how that group's lives matter, it...wouldn't go well.

Hell, some of the people currently vocally supporting #BlackLivesMatter would probably tell me this other group *deserves* it, others would actively ignore it, and the general goal would be that this particular lens (despite seemingly more accurately hitting who is most negatively effected by the criminal justice system) should not be used, because it's...inconvenient, even if seemingly accurate by any measurement of the actual performance of the justice system and not merely what's politically en vogue. I'd also be called multiple kinds of bigot.

Wanna guess what demographic I'm talking about?

I'll jump back in here for this.

It'll be relatively simple.

This argument boils down to a simple idea that I'll sum up in analogy.

"Hey, listen. I know you sent me out to investigate this instance of child abuse that's been going on for years. But I found this other case of child abuse that's been going on a little bit longer. And not only that, they are possibly using that child in an underground fight ring to make money."

"Quick, Simmons! Forget that other child and focus on that poor new one!!!"

It wouldn't make sense there. It doesn't make sense here. Fix the System so no one is harmed by it. And if groups are continually pointing it out and regular people are putting their thumbs in their ears, closing their eyes, and humming so they don't have to deal with the uncomfortable reality, then lenses must be focused.

And actually? More the better that more groups come up. If other groups spoke up about police abuse, then things would be done. I, personally as a black man, would not be satisfied if tomorrow all undue treatment from Police would be wiped away from the Black Community entirely, and then placed on the door step of the Chinese or the Latin Americans.

All Police need to treat every citizen with humanity. Arrest those who deserve. Defend yourself as necessary. But do not go over your bounds and pretend that the Blue Shield and Public opinion should always be on your side. Especially when you're doing reprehensible things to any person.

 

[Houseman]

More the better that more groups come up.

You mean like "All Lives Matter?"

Of, course, that's not a group, that's just what some people say in response to the clearly racially charged chant of "black lives matter".

But for some reason, certain people don't like it when you say that.

 

[Avnger]

You mean like "All Lives Matter?"

Of, course, that's not a group, that's just what some people say in response to the clearly racially charged chant of "black lives matter".

But for some reason, certain people don't like it when you say that.

Willful ignorance is not conducive to meaningful discussion. If you still don't understand the implicit too at the end of "black lives matter" and the context behind why the phrase "all lives matter" is at best nothing more than whataboutism and at worst a racist dog whistle after years of national discussion (including several threads on this forum), it's entirely your personal failing.

 

[Hades]

Of, course, that's not a group, that's just what some people say in response to the clearly racially charged chant of "black lives matter".

But for some reason, certain people don't like it when you say that.

Probably because its a little bit dishonest.

Yes. At the end of the day all lives matter. Everyone knows that all life matters.

But that black lives matter, that their lives are naturally included within ''all lives matter'' is something many people don't know. A cop might firmly believes that all live matters in theory but in practice he then forgets that black lives matter.

No one needs a reminder that all lives matter. But with all the violence cops direct at the black community it does seem that people need a very strong reminder that black lives indeed matter. You can say all lives matter but when you do its not self evident that people will include black people within this group that's supposed to consist of ''all'' lives.

 

[tstorm823]

Willful ignorance is not conducive to meaningful discussion. If you still don't understand the implicit too at the end of "black lives matter" and the context behind why the phrase "all lives matter" is at best nothing more than whataboutism and at worst a racist dog whistle after years of national discussion (including several threads on this forum), it's entirely your personal failing.

"All lives matter" is dumb for exactly the same reason "black lives matter" is dumb, with or without an implicit "too". Your defense of the phrase "black lives matter" against "all lives matter" is an illustration of exactly the problem. You take "all lives matter" as an accusation that people saying "black lives matter" don't care about non-black people. And in many cases, you're not wrong, that is the accusation. In the same vein, "black lives matter" is an accusation, an accusation that people don't think black lives matter

 

[Schadrach]

It's inconvenient when it's suddenly an issue when it can draw attention from another issue finally getting some of the attention it deserves. It wasn't any less important before BLM got going again. It's not going to be less important should BLM die down and people stop caring again.

I used the group I did because all of those stats I named are accurate and it's also a group that there's *always* someone else it's more important to talk about right now. If I were to bring it up when these protests calm down, it will continue to be shot down, dismissed and ignored, just the reason will be slightly different. It's not politically popular and hasn't been, well, ever.

Actually to the fact that in at least one western country it's policy to make those gaps *wider*.

 

[Seanchaidh]

In the same vein, "black lives matter" is an accusation, an accusation that people don't think black lives matter

An accusation that is clearly true.

 

[Houseman]

About the "more groups" scenario, consider this: A second group pops up called "Hispanic Lives Matter" alongside "Black Lives Matter"

Who is a "white ally" supposed to support? Donating to one group means that they have less money to donate to the other. If one were to donate an unequal amount, could it be said that they think that one group "matters more" than the other?
What sign are they supposed to hold up, if they can only hold up one?

If black people hold up a "HLM" sign, are they "traitors" for not helping the cause, and vice-versa?
Would it be fair to say to someone with a "Hispanic Lives Matter" sign that they don't think that "Black Lives Matter", and vice-versa?
Could you blame a person of any other ethnicity for not supporting either group, out of fear for displeasing the other one?

At this point, wouldn't consolidating into some different, racially-neutral slogan that meets the needs of both of these groups be the solution?

 

[Agema]

About the "more groups" scenario, consider this: A second group pops up called "Hispanic Lives Matter" alongside "Black Lives Matter"

"All lives matter" is not a positive statement to defend the concept that all lives matter (I'll bet you a high proportion of them love shoot to kill policing and the death penalty).

It's a statement that a) black people have nothing to complain about, b) racism doesn't really exist, and c) BLM is just unfair special pleading.

 

[Houseman]

"All lives matter" is not a positive statement to defend the concept that all lives matter (I'll bet you a high proportion of them love shoot to kill policing and the death penalty).

It's a statement that a) black people have nothing to complain about, b) racism doesn't really exist, and c) BLM is just unfair special pleading.

Did you quote me by mistake? Because what you said has no relation to what you quoted.

Either way, I'll respond to what you've written: That seems like you're making a whole lot of assumptions, and I don't see any reason why you'd make those assumptions. For example, on what basis do you say that someone who says "all lives matter" is making a statement that "racism doesn't exist", for example?

 

[ObsidianJones]

You mean like "All Lives Matter?"

Of, course, that's not a group, that's just what some people say in response to the clearly racially charged chant of "black lives matter".

But for some reason, certain people don't like it when you say that.

Ok, sure.

And let's see what, if any response "All Lives Matter" has mustered up after George Floyd.

A New Jersey corrections officer was suspended and a FedEx worker fired after two All Lives Matter demonstrators mockingly re-enacted George Floyd's death on Monday to apparently counter a Black Lives Matter march in Franklinville, New Jersey.

The moment was videotaped by several people from both sides of the protest and posted on social media. "Black lives matter to no one," shouts one apparent All Lives Matter protester.

The entire incident lasted one minute and 23 seconds, according to video posted to social media that CNN has obtained.

The video appears to have been taken by an All Lives Matter protester and shows what was happening before and after the Black Lives Matter march passed by.

About 20 seconds before the police cars escorting the Black Lives Matter march reach the All Lives Matter protesters, a man lies prone on the ground. Shortly after that, another man kneels on his neck, and the re-enactment of Floyd's death begins.

Other eyewitness videos, taken by Black Lives Matters marchers, pick up what happened next.

"I felt something was happening because the officers began shifting us to the opposite side of the street as we marched closer to that area," Russell Sampson, a Black Lives Matter marcher, told CNN.

Ten seconds after the escorting police cars roll by, when the marchers approach, the kneeling man starts shouting at them. "You don't comply, that's what happens," he screams, gesturing at the protesters to the person underneath him. "Look ... he didn't comply! He didn't comply. If he would have complied, that wouldn't have happened."

The organizer of the Black Lives Matter protest in Franklinville, Daryan Fennal, told CNN she was brought to tears seeing the re-enactment.

"I saw mothers trying to cover their children's eyes," she told CNN in a statement.

"Racism is everywhere, but to put it on display in such a gruesome and public way was what surprised me."

After the protesters pass by, the man taking the video then begins commenting on the Black Lives Matter marchers.

"Blacks lives matter to no one," he is heard saying in the video. "All lives matter. All lives matter. Police lives matter. God bless the police. God bless the police. You dumbass protesters."

But please, you were talking about a group's racially charged chant. Do continue.

 

[Buyetyen]

But please, you were talking about a group's racially charged chant. Do continue.

"Blacks lives matter to no one," he is heard saying in the video. "All lives matter. All lives matter. Police lives matter. God bless the police. God bless the police. You dumbass protesters."

That's some Oscar Wylde shit there, man.

 

[Houseman]

But please, you were talking about a group's racially charged chant. Do continue.

I did continue, in post #1,548.

 

[Kwak]

"All lives matter" is dumb for exactly the same reason "black lives matter" is dumb, with or without an implicit "too". Your defense of the phrase "black lives matter" against "all lives matter" is an illustration of exactly the problem. You take "all lives matter" as an accusation that people saying "black lives matter" don't care about non-black people. And in many cases, you're not wrong, that is the accusation. In the same vein, "black lives matter" is an accusation, an accusation that people don't think black lives matter

Which is an accusation based on the years of evidence of authoritarian and institutional abuse against them, and a plea that things are changed.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

...that's just what some people say in response to the clearly racially charged chant of "black lives matter".

Since thousands of words haven't gotten through to you, let's try a picture instead.

 

[Houseman]

Since thousands of words haven't gotten through to you, let's try a picture instead.

I'd rather take a well-articulated persuasive argument that actually responds to the points I've made, rather than a strawman.

 

[Revnak]

SOME OF THOSE WHO WORK FORCES ARE ALSO THE ONES BURNING CROSSES

Fired Wilmington cop: “We are just going to go out and start slaughtering them f—— ni—–. I can’t wait. God, I can’t wait.” [Free read] | Port City Daily

Editor's note: This article contains extremely graphic and racist language, reader discretion is advised. WILMINGTON — "We are just gonna go out and start slaughtering them fu—– ni—–. I can'

portcitydaily.com

 

[Gordon_4]

Dear America.

For the good of yourselves, it is my considered advice that you guys roll a Scoob the size and shape of a nuclear submarine and everyone in the land takes a fucking toke so you can all chill the fuck out for ten minutes.

Sincerely,

Frustrated nobody on the Internet.

 

[Revnak]

Dear America.

For the good of yourselves, it is my considered advice that you guys roll a Scoob the size and shape of a nuclear submarine and everyone in the land takes a fucking toke so you can all chill the fuck out for ten minutes.

Sincerely,

Frustrated nobody on the Internet.

Bro that’s illegal and can get you 20 years or more in much of the country.

 

[ObsidianJones]

Bro that’s illegal and can get you 20 years or more in much of the country.

Actually, from what I seen, for most of the country you'll get a slap on the wrist if even looked at.

Other citizens of the country, however? Welcome to being a Felon.