TLOU2 Review Thread

[stroopwafel]

This is definitely a critique I can agree with. To understand how Joel rubbed off on Ellie you need to have played TLOU. But the worst part is how the player isn't informed about Ellie's true state of mind for the first half of the game until they are at the very end. The revelation of Joel's and Ellie's tentative making up should have come far sooner.

It was definitely implied though but subtly. I already had the impression Ellie was in severe distress before the flashbacks in the barn. I also don't think it's necessarily Joel's 'bad influence' that made Ellie so vengeful but also her ties to the past and chance for reconciliation that was now severed. She had no choice when Joel made the decision to free her from the Fireflies and now she had no choice to forgive Joel for that. A big motivation for revenge is the loss of control and wanting that back. It's an all consuming motive of which Ellie finally realizes it's futility in the end. Joel will never come back, she won't reconcile and she will have to live with that loss and all that she's done. By letting Abby go she also forgives herself. It's a much more poignant message than 'revenge is bad'.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I think we are to understand that Ellie didn't mull it over, she just went straight for the vengeance. In a way, this is the game showing how some of Joel's worst traits, his quickness to anger and act in rage, has rubbed off on Ellie. I think the game made it pretty clear that Ellie doesn't mourn Joel, because she instead canalized all that grief into rage directed at Abby. It is deeply unhealthy and the game absolutely shows us, from the very start, that Ellie's reaction is terrible and only makes everything worse for everyone involved.



I can't help but feel that you're describing the lead up to another story here, with another message. The entire conceit of TLOU2 is that both Abby and Ellie deal with the murder of their respective father figure by pushing away the sorrow and turning it into anger and bloodthirst. Ellie isn't meant to be a reluctant avenger, she's meant to embrace the hatred and the fury because her story is about how it changes her. Her arc is about how that hatred changes her for the worse and makes her destroy everything she values and cares for, all so that she can kill Abby, something that will not take away her pain.

Abby's arc is the contrast, because Abby has gotten her revenge and she still feels bad. At the start of the game she's already lost a loving relationship with Owen, her friends either resent or are scared of her and her boss considers her nothing but a brutal attack dog. Her arc is her dealing with the fallout her murder of Joel caused and how it didn't change anything for the better. Eventually, she moves on and finds some peace in protecting Yara and Lev. Her decision to try and rejoin the Fireflies is symbolic, because the WLF are all about destroying the Seraphites, while the Fireflies tried to rebuild civilization.



This is definitely a critique I can agree with. To understand how Joel rubbed off on Ellie you need to have played TLOU. But the worst part is how the player isn't informed about Ellie's true state of mind for the first half of the game until they are at the very end. The revelation of Joel's and Ellie's tentative making up should have come far sooner.

She may not have tried to deal with it like at the farm, but it also wasn’t an overnight kinda decision either. We see here she gets her face smashed up and most of those wounds are already healed by the time we see her back home talking to Tommy. Then later we see her by Joel’s gravesite before she leaves. They didn’t put that together overnight...maybe a week at best.

It seems that Ellie’s reaction is something a lot of people think should’ve been rationalized more, but that requires thinking these were normal circumstances that well-adjusted characters would react more typically to. We would expect someone from an every day real life scenario to healthily mourn someone who was brutally murdered, sure. But a lot these people in the game’s world have long been murderers themselves - Ellie included - and the stripped down survival mentality has largely been their way of life for decades by that point. The main distinction is where in the timeline do they fall.

Tommy is closer to Joel than Ellie ever was and he graciously tries to discourage her because he knows what they’d be going up against, but he’s also seen life well before the outbreak. Ellie grew up through the chaos, eye for an eye world, and she hasn’t exactly had a normal upbringing by any means until very recently. She was also in the process of trying to forgive Joel, burdened by mixed emotions, etc. and that was taken from her.

It’s perhaps a bit pretentious to think we know what Ellie’s going through or how she *should’ve* reacted when we’re only along for the ride. Could the game have justified it more thoroughly or structured it differently? Sure, but it’s a moot point when we see right off the bat that Ellie’s already the type of person that would scream, “I’m gonna fucking kill you!!” and we know she’s followed through over less in the past.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think we are to understand that Ellie didn't mull it over, she just went straight for the vengeance. In a way, this is the game showing how some of Joel's worst traits, his quickness to anger and act in rage, has rubbed off on Ellie. I think the game made it pretty clear that Ellie doesn't mourn Joel, because she instead canalized all that grief into rage directed at Abby. It is deeply unhealthy and the game absolutely shows us, from the very start, that Ellie's reaction is terrible and only makes everything worse for everyone involved.

And that's my problem. It feels out of character, not just for Ellie, but for anyone living in Jackson. Ellie wasn't that kind of person in the first game, and the little bit we get to experience her in the sequel before all hell breaks loose doesn't show the seeds of it neither. Yet all of a sudden this is apparently how she deals with her grief and anger. Because it's not like she's artistic or has loved ones to help her deal with this or anything. No, killing is just the only outlet for her, I guess, eventhough this was never established to be part of her personality at all.

And Joel was never quick to anger or act out of rage. He never even killed out of anger or rage. Joel was emotionally closed off, and the only time we see him get truly angry and "evil" in the first game and kill as a result is when Ellie isn't with him or unconcious. What rubbed off on Ellie in the first game is Joel's complete disillusionment in the world.

I can't help but feel that you're describing the lead up to another story here, with another message. The entire conceit of TLOU2 is that both Abby and Ellie deal with the murder of their respective father figure by pushing away the sorrow and turning it into anger and bloodthirst. Ellie isn't meant to be a reluctant avenger, she's meant to embrace the hatred and the fury because her story is about how it changes her. Her arc is about how that hatred changes her for the worse and makes her destroy everything she values and cares for, all so that she can kill Abby, something that will not take away her pain.

Abby's arc is the contrast, because Abby has gotten her revenge and she still feels bad. At the start of the game she's already lost a loving relationship with Owen, her friends either resent or are scared of her and her boss considers her nothing but a brutal attack dog. Her arc is her dealing with the fallout her murder of Joel caused and how it didn't change anything for the better. Eventually, she moves on and finds some peace in protecting Yara and Lev. Her decision to try and rejoin the Fireflies is symbolic, because the WLF are all about destroying the Seraphites, while the Fireflies tried to rebuild civilization.

Except Ellie doesn't really have an arc, not in those first three days atleast. From that first conversation with Tommy after Joel's death she's just in 'kill the bastards' mode, and she doesn't leave that state until Abby knocks it out of her. There's no difference in Ellie's character from when Tommy tries to talk her out of leaving Jackson, to after she kills Owen and Mel. There's no gradual descent. And that gradual descent is necessary since Ellie isn't a crazy murderer who gets any sort of catharsis from killing. But TLoU2 makes it seem is if a switch just flipped. And if the game was trying to tell us that Ellie was always a total psycho, and that this event just drew it out of her, fine. But the game is presenting it like a tragic spiral into madness when that spiral isn't even there. There's a flip of the switch. This is why those three days as Ellie are the worst part of the game.

Abby has a more competent arc, in as much that it's actually an arc. But it's not given enough time, and it's hampered by overcrowding with the amount of characters. Abby and Lev are the closest this game comes to having some genuine character bonding, but it skips a lot. Abby is way too quick to treat this kid as... a kid, and not an enemy. She barely knows him when she sets out with him to the hospital, but she's already goofing off around him, cracking jokes and loosening up. And if she's able to do that that quickly with him - finding empathy for this kid and his sister - why didn't this ever happen with other Seraphites? She instantly dismisses heartfelt letters and notes written by Seraphites, and doesn't think twice in saying 'Fuck you, I don't care.' You'd think some of that resentment/caution would still be there when she's with Lev that early on, but they're buddies almost from the start (of the hopital run).

TLoU2 feels like a brainstorming session made into a game. Just a whole lot of ideas that are quickly thrown around for the sake of getting a feel for which direction to go, except nobody put their foot down and decided on one.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

And that's my problem. It feels out of character, not just for Ellie, but for anyone living in Jackson. Ellie wasn't that kind of person in the first game, and the little bit we get to experience her in the sequel before all hell breaks loose doesn't show the seeds of it neither. Yet all of a sudden this is apparently how she deals with her grief and anger. Because it's not like she's artistic or has loved ones to help her deal with this or anything. No, killing is just the only outlet for her, I guess, eventhough this was never established to be part of her personality at all.

And Joel was never quick to anger or act out of rage. He never even killed out of anger or rage. Joel was emotionally closed off, and the only time we see him get truly angry and "evil" in the first game and kill as a result is when Ellie isn't with him or unconcious. What rubbed off on Ellie in the first game is Joel's complete disillusionment in the world.

Except Ellie doesn't really have an arc, not in those first three days atleast. From that first conversation with Tommy after Joel's death she's just in 'kill the bastards' mode, and she doesn't leave that state until Abby knocks it out of her. There's no difference in Ellie's character from when Tommy tries to talk her out of leaving Jackson, to after she kills Owen and Mel. There's no gradual descent. And that gradual descent is necessary since Ellie isn't a crazy murderer how gets any sort of catharsis from killing. But TLoU2 makes it seem is if a switch just flipped. And if the game was trying to tell us that Ellie was always a total psycho, and that this event just drew it out of her, fine. But the game is presenting it like a tragic spiral into madness when that spiral isn't even there. There's a flip of the switch. This is why those three days as Ellie are the worst part of the game.

Abby has a more competent arc, in as much that it's actually an arc. But it's not given enough time, and it's hampered by overcrowding with the amount of characters. Abby and Lev are the closest this game comes to having some genuine character bonding, but it skips a lot. Abby is way too quick to treat this kid as... a kid, and not an enemy. She barely knows him when she sets out with him to the hospital, but she's already goofing off around him, cracking jokes and loosening up. And if she's able to do that that quickly with him - finding empathy for this kid and his sister - why didn't this ever happen with other Seraphites? She instantly dismisses heartfelt letters and notes written by Seraphites, and doesn't think twice in saying 'Fuck you, I don't care.' You'd think some of that resentment/caution would still be there when she's with Lev that early on, but they're buddies almost from the start (of the hopital run).

TLoU2 feels like a brainstorming session made into a game. Just a whole lot of ideas that are quickly thrown around for the sake of getting a feel for which direction to go, except nobody put their foot down and decided on one.

This is why I thought it would’ve been better if the bulk of it was Abby’s story, and a bit more fleshed out. It felt more impactful, reflective and meaningful beyond simple revenge tropes. Also I’m wondering if the fact the game essentially had two writers in the kitchen is the biggest reason it felt conflicted as far as direction. It would be interesting to play through a Director’s cut version, if there ever was a singular vision.

 

[stroopwafel]

And that's my problem. It feels out of character, not just for Ellie, but for anyone living in Jackson. Ellie wasn't that kind of person in the first game, and the little bit we get to experience her in the sequel before all hell breaks loose doesn't show the seeds of it neither. Yet all of a sudden this is apparently how she deals with her grief and anger. Because it's not like she's artistic or has loved ones to help her deal with this or anything. No, killing is just the only outlet for her, I guess, eventhough this was never established to be part of her personality at all.

And Joel was never quick to anger or act out of rage. He never even killed out of anger or rage. Joel was emotionally closed off, and the only time we see him get truly angry and "evil" in the first game and kill as a result is when Ellie isn't with him or unconcious. What rubbed off on Ellie in the first game is Joel's complete disillusionment in the world.

Except Ellie doesn't really have an arc, not in those first three days atleast. From that first conversation with Tommy after Joel's death she's just in 'kill the bastards' mode, and she doesn't leave that state until Abby knocks it out of her. There's no difference in Ellie's character from when Tommy tries to talk her out of leaving Jackson, to after she kills Owen and Mel. There's no gradual descent. And that gradual descent is necessary since Ellie isn't a crazy murderer who gets any sort of catharsis from killing. But TLoU2 makes it seem is if a switch just flipped. And if the game was trying to tell us that Ellie was always a total psycho, and that this event just drew it out of her, fine. But the game is presenting it like a tragic spiral into madness when that spiral isn't even there. There's a flip of the switch. This is why those three days as Ellie are the worst part of the game.

Abby has a more competent arc, in as much that it's actually an arc. But it's not given enough time, and it's hampered by overcrowding with the amount of characters. Abby and Lev are the closest this game comes to having some genuine character bonding, but it skips a lot. Abby is way too quick to treat this kid as... a kid, and not an enemy. She barely knows him when she sets out with him to the hospital, but she's already goofing off around him, cracking jokes and loosening up. And if she's able to do that that quickly with him - finding empathy for this kid and his sister - why didn't this ever happen with other Seraphites? She instantly dismisses heartfelt letters and notes written by Seraphites, and doesn't think twice in saying 'Fuck you, I don't care.' You'd think some of that resentment/caution would still be there when she's with Lev that early on, but they're buddies almost from the start (of the hopital run).

TLoU2 feels like a brainstorming session made into a game. Just a whole lot of ideas that are quickly thrown around for the sake of getting a feel for which direction to go, except nobody put their foot down and decided on one.

The way Joel was killed which Ellie was forced to watch, well, you'd have to be an emotionless zombie to not feel all-consuming rage. So she did have legitimate reasons for revenge and no switch was flipped because you notice how affectionate she still is with Dina and the emotional toll all the killing has on her. Yet this is what unresolved trauma and the heinous murder of her father figure has led her to. Abby similarly lost her father to Joel who in his turn despised military types for killing his daughter. All the characters in this drama are both victims and perpetrator. There are no clear lines of who is 'right' or 'wrong' and this is what makes the story so good. All the characters are relatable in some way. Abby wasn't a killer because she enjoyed it but because she had similar motives as Ellie. That is why she saved Lev because she is essentially a good person but this is buried underneath heaps of anger and loss. Abby has also conditioned to the harshness of this world where hesitation means death so yeah she isn't going to ask the Seraphites for the peace pipe when she knows they want to kill her after having been tortured by them. If things were different not Joel, Ellie or Abby would be on the path they were on.

 

[Casual Shinji]

This is why I thought it would’ve been better if the bulk of it was Abby’s story, and a bit more fleshed out. It felt more impactful, reflective and meaningful beyond simple revenge tropes. Also I’m wondering if the fact the game essentially had two writers in the kitchen is the biggest reason it felt conflicted as far as direction. It would be interesting to play through a Director’s cut version, if there ever was a singular vision.

It definitely feels like the writers took over the production at the expense of game pacing. But I have also wondered whether Druckmann and Gross just don't work well together as a writing team. TLoU1 and Uncharted 4 both have very good character writing and story beats (one more than the other), and Druckmann was a writer for both of those games. So I wonder if the addition of Hailey Gross, and in particular her being a writer for TV shows, is what resulted in TLoU2 drowning in plot and forsaking character. Or maybe Druckmann just got too big of a head. Probably a bit of both.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[CriticalGaming]

I think this game will be the most talked about game of the year. lol 42 pages guys damn.

Maybe Cyberpunk 2077 might get this kind of discussion.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I feel that Ellie has a pretty clear arc, it just doesn't have to do with her motivation but rather how much she forsakes to get to Abby. The first person on her list is killed in what amounts to self defense and her relationship with Dina is intact, but for every day that passes Ellie grows more distant as she commits more and more brutal acts. The tipping point is when she tortures and kills Nora and is unable to talk to Dina afterwards. This is also reflected in her choice to go after Abby instead of following Jesse to help Tommy, showing us how Ellie, who started the game as someone who would go through hell through her friends, has lost sight of what is important. In the end, Ellie has lost her lover, her adopted child, her best friend and her ability to play the guitar, all because she couldn't deal with her hatred.

So the gradual descent is there, but it is not into the hatred but rather in how far that hatred pushes Ellie. It is the hatred that makes Ellie gradually give up on everything that's important to her and even when she tries to get away from it, at the farm, we are shown that it still gnaws away at her and makes her abandon her family to pursue a foolish revenge quest. Personally, I feel it is pretty well done. Ellie is clearly traumatized by witnessing Joel's death and is unable to process that, having inherited the emotional distance of Joel, so instead her hatred of Abby consumes her.

TLOU2's point isn't that hatred is something you slowly descend into. It is that hatred is something that overtakes you completely and makes you cross lines you normally wouldn't cross and sacrifice things you normally wouldn't sacrifice for irrational and meaningless reasons. With Ellie we get to see all the lines she crosses and bridges she burns. With Abby we then get to see the fallout of having gone down that path and how she has to find new and better meaning in her life.

God, I hate that scene with Nora so much, it's so toothless and lacks any impact. Ellie has been murdering men and women with such spite and anger for hours up till that point, but NOW it suddenly makes her feel shaken? She even beats her with a pipe; something she's already done to plenty of other people, wearing the same facial expression. Maybe if they had toned down Ellie's threats to her victims along with her angry scowling face as she was murdering them this might feel a bit different, but as it is there's nothing different other than the game telling us that it is. And sure, those kills were kills and not full blown torture, but they were still painful and torturously slow as she was sawing their throats open.

Compare that to Joel in the first game who treats every person he kills very rudimentary; he doesn't talk or say anything and acts like it's something he just wants to be done with as quickly as possible. And his goal in crossing the United States is to protect a young girl whose immunity might help to produce a cure, making those murders he commits feel much less vindictive if at all. We even see him torture Robert early on, but again it's very matter of fact, and we see him look to Tess for the OK. Meaning he has zero emotional stake in it; it's just a job. And this makes his torture of those two men in Winter feel incredibly sinister and personal as a result. He also doesn't feel bad about it afterward, showing that underneath all that positive emotional progress he's still a monster. With Ellie and Nora in TLoU2 it's just... whatever, the next dead person Ellie was mad at, I guess, but then she's feels bad because... eh?

And okay, Ellie hates, but why? She hates because Joel got killed, she hates that Abby got away with it. But Ellie has never been shown to be a hateful person to the point where she would undertake something like this, and the game doesn't give enough time for this hatred to set in. In the spur of the moment I can understand Ellie chasing after Abby in a blind rage if they were in the same town or whatever. But across the United States dragging her girlfriend along for something that might very well get both of them killed? No, she would've come to her senses before the day was over.

You can't just take a character and make them this driven by hate when they were never like that before and explain it as 'hatred is something that completely overtakes you'. There needs to be some basis for that, and with Ellie and how this blind hate expresses itself there really isn't.

 

[stroopwafel]

God, I hate that scene with Nora so much, it's so toothless and lacks any impact. Ellie has been murdering men and women with such spite and anger for hours up till that point, but NOW it suddenly makes her feel shaken? She even beats her with a pipe; something she's already done to plenty of other people, wearing the same facial expression. Maybe if they had toned down Ellie's threats to her victims along with her angry scowling face as she was murdering them this might feel a bit different, but as it is there's nothing different other than the game telling us that it is. And sure, those kills were kills and not full blown torture, but they were still painful and torturously slow as she was sawing their throats open.

Compare that to Joel in the first game who treats every person he kills very rudimentary; he doesn't talk or say anything and acts like it's something he just wants to be done with as quickly as possible. And his goal in crossing the United States is to protect a young girl whose immunity might help to produce a cure, making those murders he commits feel much less vindictive if at all. We even see him torture Robert early on, but again it's very matter of fact, and we see him look to Tess for the OK. Meaning he has zero emotional stake in it; it's just a job. And this makes his torture of those two men in Winter feel incredibly sinister and personal as a result. He also doesn't feel bad about it afterward, showing that underneath all that positive emotional progress he's still a monster. With Ellie and Nora in TLoU2 it's just... whatever, the next dead person Ellie was mad at, I guess, but then she's feels bad because... eh?

And okay, Ellie hates, but why? She hates because Joel got killed, she hates that Abby got away with it. But Ellie has never been shown to be a hateful person to the point where she would undertake something like this, and the game doesn't give enough time for this hatred to set in. In the spur of the moment I can understand Ellie chasing after Abby in a blind rage if they were in the same town or whatever. But across the United States dragging her girlfriend along for something that might very well get both of them killed? No, she would've come to her senses before the day was over.

You can't just take a character and make them this driven by hate when they were never like that before and explain it as 'hatred is something that completely overtakes you'. There needs to be some basis for that, and with Ellie and how this blind hate expresses itself there really isn't.

It's pointless to argue about this if you can't relate to the characters. Maybe if Ellie cried in her pillow with a bout of impotent rage you would have liked it more. Instead she took action and the game is ultimately about the costs of that action. She did not cry in a corner complaining how unfair the world is but instead decided Joel's killers deserved payback. At tremendous costs but some lessons can only be learned through experience. And that experience is the entire point of the game.

 

[Casual Shinji]

It's pointless to argue about this if you can't relate to the characters. Maybe if Ellie cried in her pillow with a bout of impotent rage you would have liked it more. Instead she took action and the game is ultimately about the costs of that action. She did not cry in a corner complaining how unfair the world is but instead decided Joel's killers deserved payback. At tremendous costs but some lessons can only be learned through experience. And that experience is the entire point of the game.

Nice of you to assume that this is what I wanted of the character. But no actually, I wanted them to stay true to their character, not be turned into a generic rage fueled killer because they lost someone. These characters were always more interesting than that, and the character interaction was more intersting than that. And Ellie pulling Dina along with this? Yeah, you bet your ass I can't relate to that, since Ellie would not in a million years be so callous. Well, maybe in a million years, but overnight? Fuck no. It's dumb writing, and it makes the characters dumb and unengaging.

Equally dumb and unengaging is setting your main romantic bonding right after an extremely brutal and traumatizing murder of a loved one. I mean, that's a nice rendition of 'Take on Me' Ellie, and you sing it well, but if this is meant to be a sweet moment of bonding between you and Dina it's kinda completely ridiculous in the wake of Joel's corpse from no less than 30 minutes ago. You sorta knee capped any attempt at relaxing traversal and casual banter by shockingly knee capping and sickeningly bludgeoning this character that Ellie cares so greatly for that she would risk killing her girlfriend for the sake of vengeance. At least for the next 3 hours of gameplay.

You'd also think the impracticallity of travel in this world would put a spoke in the wheels of this whole tale of vengeance, but apparently everyone can just travel around willy nilly so long as the plot requires them to be at a certain place at a certain time. 'Oh hi Jesse, you're here too huh. Those 2000 miles just flew by, didn't it?'

But you know what, you're right, I would've probably liked it more if Ellie just cried in her pillow with a bout of impotent rage. It wouldn't have been as embarressing to her character.

 

[stroopwafel]

Nice of you to assume that this is what I wanted of the character. But no actually, I wanted them to stay true to their character, not be turned into a generic rage fueled killer because they lost someone. These characters were always more interesting than that, and the character interaction was more intersting than that. And Ellie pulling Dina along with this? Yeah, you bet your ass I can't relate to that, since Ellie would not in a million years be so callous. Well, maybe in a million years, but overnight? Fuck no. It's dumb writing, and it makes the characters dumb and unengaging.

Equally dumb and unengaging is setting your main romantic bonding right after an extremely brutal and traumatizing murder of a loved one. I mean, that's a nice rendition of 'Take on Me' Ellie, and you sing it well, but if this is meant to be a sweet moment of bonding between you and Dina it's kinda completely ridiculous in the wake of Joel's corpse from no less than 30 minutes ago. You sorta knee capped any attempt at relaxing traversal and casual banter by shockingly knee capping and sickeningly bludgeoning this character that Ellie cares so greatly for that she would risk killing her girlfriend for the sake of vengeance. At least for the next 3 hours of gameplay.

You'd also think the impracticallity of travel in this world would put a spoke in the wheels of this whole tale of vengeance, but apparently everyone can just travel around willy nilly so long as the plot requires them to be at a certain place at a certain time. 'Oh hi Jesse, you're here too huh. Those 2000 miles just flew by, didn't it?'

But you know what, you're right, I would've probably liked it more if Ellie just cried in her pillow with a bout of impotent rage. It wouldn't have been as embarressing to her character.

Ellie asked Dina if she really wanted to come along to which she replied ''wherever you go, I go'' so it was her own choice. Ellie also tried to protect Dina when she found out she was pregnant in that music theatre. I thought that 'Take on Me' scene was really sweet. There was a sadness that was very indirect. Ellie already had feelings for Dina before Joel's murder and Joel even encouraged her relationship with Dina because it made her happy. Their interlude in the weed basement was also very sensitive and affectionate. Feelings don't evaporate under stress often they become stronger. It's obvious Ellie had a lot of emotional support on Dina but ultimately it was not enough.

The journey to Seattle is indeed not experienced in-game but it is chronicled in Ellie's diary. Her diary also shows she wasn't exactly in the right headspace a lot of the time and foreshadows her PTSD.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Nice of you to assume that this is what I wanted of the character. But no actually, I wanted them to stay true to their character, not be turned into a generic rage fueled killer because they lost someone. These characters were always more interesting than that, and the character interaction was more intersting than that. And Ellie pulling Dina along with this? Yeah, you bet your ass I can't relate to that, since Ellie would not in a million years be so callous. Well, maybe in a million years, but overnight? Fuck no. It's dumb writing, and it makes the characters dumb and unengaging.

Equally dumb and unengaging is setting your main romantic bonding right after an extremely brutal and traumatizing murder of a loved one. I mean, that's a nice rendition of 'Take on Me' Ellie, and you sing it well, but if this is meant to be a sweet moment of bonding between you and Dina it's kinda completely ridiculous in the wake of Joel's corpse from no less than 30 minutes ago. You sorta knee capped any attempt at relaxing traversal and casual banter by shockingly knee capping and sickeningly bludgeoning this character that Ellie cares so greatly for that she would risk killing her girlfriend for the sake of vengeance. At least for the next 3 hours of gameplay.

You'd also think the impracticallity of travel in this world would put a spoke in the wheels of this whole tale of vengeance, but apparently everyone can just travel around willy nilly so long as the plot requires them to be at a certain place at a certain time. 'Oh hi Jesse, you're here too huh. Those 2000 miles just flew by, didn't it?'

But you know what, you're right, I would've probably liked it more if Ellie just cried in her pillow with a bout of impotent rage. It wouldn't have been as embarressing to her character.

Again, the time between Joel’s murder and leaving for Seattle wasn’t anywhere near “overnight”. For one, Ellie’s smashed mouth was already pretty much healed by that point. For another, we see her by Joel’s bloody gravesite. We would have to perhaps assume they just...idk, have everyone’s tombstone prepped in this dangerous world.

Same goes for the singing sequence. Weren’t they already at least in Washington by that point? I get your thinking that Ellie’s rage trip seems unjustified and rushed at the very least, but presuming to know for a fact how a fictional character *should* be feeling and that the game presents her as “out of character” is well, presumptuous at best. Maybe if the game was another few hours longer on top of an already bloated run time it could’ve delved more into the how’s and why‘s of her psyche since we last saw her, but to me there was enough here between cutscenes, journal entries, flash blacks, etc. as it is to jump to that conclusion ourselves.

The base line for me was first acknowledging that Ellie is far from a normal teenager growing up under normal or healthy circumstances, even among her peers given her special status and personal shit she’s been through. I wouldn’t even know where to begin stepping in her shoes, but a little imagination can go a long way towards attempting to relate.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Again, the time between Joel’s murder and leaving for Seattle wasn’t anywhere near “overnight”. For one, Ellie’s smashed mouth was already pretty much healed by that point. For another, we see her by Joel’s bloody gravesite. We would have to perhaps assume they just...idk, have everyone’s tombstone prepped in this dangerous world.

Well, Naughty Dog isn't opposed to time stamping these things, so if quite some time had passed I figure they would've highlighted that in some manner. But they didn't, so I'm going to assume it's at best 3 to 4 days. As for the tombstone, it looks like wood, so that probably didn't take too long to make. But everyone also apparently has flowers to spare to lay by Joel's house in the middle of winter, whether they be plastic or not, so who knows what this town spends its free time on.

Same goes for the singing sequence. Weren’t they already at least in Washington by that point? I get your thinking that Ellie’s rage trip seems unjustified and rushed at the very least, but presuming to know for a fact how a fictional character *should* be feeling and that the game presents her as “out of character” is well, presumptuous at best. Maybe if the game was another few hours longer on top of an already bloated run time it could’ve delved more into the how’s and why‘s of her psyche since we last saw her, but to me there was enough here between cutscenes, journal entries, flash blacks, etc. as it is to jump to that conclusion ourselves.

The problem there is that for Ellie and Dina maybe two months have gone by, but for the player it's been 10 minutes since we saw Joel's head getting cracked open. And since the game deliberately wanted that scene to be painfully seared into the players brain, it feels like tonal whiplash to follow that up with the typical Naughty Dog fair of banter and bonding.

And whether it's presumptuous... maybe, but I know that the first game took its time with its "love" theme. Joel didn't just take to Ellie immediately seeing as that wasn't in his character. It was a slow gradual process of him opening up and growing to care for Ellie. So that near the end when Joel says 'Well I ain't leaving without you' it felt genuine, it felt earned, because we were there to witness his emotional journey. And with TLoU2 it feels like they're just skipping over that to quickly get to the emotional drama, not just with Ellie but with Abby as well. And Ellie has known plenty of loss, so for her to fly off the handle over Joel's feels more like the game trying to imprint what the player will or should feel onto her rather than how she would act.

The plot seems to dictate how the characters should feel. Ellie is disregarding of her own safety and the safety of the ones she loves, because the plot needs her to at that moment. Ellie is shook up by the torture of Nora, because the plot needs her to. Abby is now friends with Lev, because the plot needs her to.

I mean, it could also be presumptuous that I think it's stupidly out of character for Kratos to care about Pandora in God of War 3 when he's been a psychotic murderer this whole time. Similar case with Ellie, but inverted.

 

[tippy2k2]

Holy balls, there's 42 damn pages in here. I have completely ignored this thread as I wanted to go in with zero knowledge of LoU2 (as LoU1 was my favorite game of that entire generation). So I'm sure what I'm going to say has been talked to death and rebutted to death this entire time but I'm not reading 42 pages of text to find out

I thought the game was good but nowhere near the level of LoU1. Honestly, going through the second half (Abby's story) all felt like a huge waste as we already knew what happened to all these characters we're supposed to be bonding with. Manny getting shot in the face was unexpected but not surprising. There was no gut punch when we discovered Mel and Owen because we knew it was coming.

I think the game would have and could have worked much better had this been a completely unrelated story to LoU1. The "You killed my friends, I'm going to hunt you down you mother fuckers" arc would have been much cleaner with a brand new character like Abby (who demonstrated a few times in the game how downright brutal she can be). Hell, if you insisted on making it connect with LoU1, you can still have her be the surgeons daughter and have that flashback setup basically be the demonstrated reason for why she's so angry at the world.

She can even have the same lesson and ending where she realizes that revenge and "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" with minimal changes to what we saw in the game. It felt like Naughty Dog came up with a story they wanted to tell and forced Ellie/Joel to fit into the story rather than let the characters fit and be molded by what's happening.

I still enjoyed The Last of Us 2 as a good game and had a good story but I kind of regret that this was the first game in years that I actually paid full price for (didn't want it spoiled by asshats on The Internet Dot Com). It certainly wasn't a bad game by any means but it was just kind of a solid game that played really well rather than getting to be The Masterpiece that LoU1 was.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think the game would have and could have worked much better had this been a completely unrelated story to LoU1. The "You killed my friends, I'm going to hunt you down you mother fuckers" arc would have been much cleaner with a brand new character like Abby (who demonstrated a few times in the game how downright brutal she can be). Hell, if you insisted on making it connect with LoU1, you can still have her be the surgeons daughter and have that flashback setup basically be the demonstrated reason for why she's so angry at the world.

I think a better fit would've been if Abby had a connection to Marlene. Because in all honesty, did anyone care about this surgeon? And now that we know Abby was his daughter, does anyone care that much more about him? Marlene on the otherhand was actually a significant character in the first game, and also the one character that really didn't deserve Joel fucking them over that hard. I mean, she's lying helpless on the ground pleading for her life, and Joel just executes her. Which bothers me the more I think about it that the sequel never adressed that. Probably because it would be a lot harder to write in Ellie wanting to forgive him if they did. But yeah, conveniently left out that one was.

It felt like Naughty Dog came up with a story they wanted to tell and forced Ellie/Joel to fit into the story rather than let the characters fit and be molded by what's happening.

Pretty much my feeling on the matter. It really bugs me that Ellie and Joel in particular are wasted on this revenge plot, when so much more interesting things could've been done with them.

 

[tippy2k2]

I think a better fit would've been if Abby had a connection to Marlene. Because in all honesty, did anyone care about this surgeon? And now that we know Abby was his daughter, does anyone care that much more about him? Marlene on the otherhand was actually a significant character in the first game, and also the one character that really didn't deserve Joel fucking them over that hard. I mean, she's lying helpless on the ground pleading for her life, and Joel just executes her. Which bothers me the more I think about it that the sequel never adressed that. Probably because it would be a lot harder to write in Ellie wanting to forgive him if they did. But yeah, conveniently left out that one was.

Pretty much my feeling on the matter. It really bugs me that Ellie and Joel in particular are wasted on this revenge plot, when so much more interesting things could've been done with them.

I think either would work (surgeon or Marlene). To me, the surgeon isn't the one you are getting a hit of The Feels from, it's Abby. Basically a young teen having to deal with her father getting gunned down for trying to do his job. I think the only reason they even made him be the surgeon is so that we would remember it from the first game.

The important part (to Abby) was that her father was killed by Joel and she wanted revenge for it. The same way Ellie's anger comes from Joel getting clubbed to death in front of her, Abby's anger clearly comes from her significant family member getting gunned down. That could have been the surgeon, Marlene, or one of the dozens of random hired guns you kill as Joel throughout the first game, the person being important to Abby is what mattered.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think either would work (surgeon or Marlene). To me, the surgeon isn't the one you are getting a hit of The Feels from, it's Abby. Basically a young teen having to deal with her father getting gunned down for trying to do his job. I think the only reason they even made him be the surgeon is so that we would remember it from the first game.

The important part (to Abby) was that her father was killed by Joel and she wanted revenge for it. The same way Ellie's anger comes from Joel getting clubbed to death in front of her, Abby's anger clearly comes from her significant family member getting gunned down. That could have been the surgeon, Marlene, or one of the dozens of random hired guns you kill as Joel throughout the first game, the person being important to Abby is what mattered.

Yeah, but by showing the surgeon in TLoU2, and with how much they're trying to make him look like just the chillest, nicest guy, it does come across as if we're really supposed to feel sorry for the guy. And I just didn't really. I mean, I did to an extent, but it felt a bit silly to try and humanize this guy so actively.

Maybe it's because to me that surgeon always functioned as Joel's voice of reason in the first game. And by killing him like he's nothing it showed how little his voice of reason meant to him in that moment. That felt like the purpose of that NPC.

If they wanted Abby to be the surgeon's daughter I don't think they should've shined as much of a spotlight on it. Just have it mentioned in conversation and then just stick to the dream sequences, and drop the whole flashback. I still would've found it kinda silly, but at least the player's own brain could've filled in the past drama itself.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Casual Shinji]

I really think that's the point. For most TLoU players, the surgeon will be the unethical asshole who's ready to cut up a teenager to get the cure. But TLoU2 shows us that this guy also had friends and family, people that loved him and were devastated by his death. What was just another body behind Joel was a significant life event for Abby. By making it an unnamed character, it becomes more of an 'unintended consequences' type of story then it does a pure revenge cycle. Joel killed him without thinking or caring about him (something that would not have been true of Marlene) but the fallout from that casual violence committed in anger comes back to bite him hard.

Yeah, but he never was an unethical asshole to me, and I don't feel the first game ever frames him that way. The fact that this guy only has a little scapel to threaten Joel with shows how much Joel sees this guy - and by extention a cure for mankind - as just a inconsequential stone in the road. Something that means nothing to him and deserves to be squashed so he can get what he wants. The purpose of the surgeon is to say something about Joel, so for me it really doesn't work to try a retcontextualize him as this simpathetic person with a family and friends. And when I see Abby all distraught over this guy's death in her flashback it hits with the force of a crumpled-up candy wrapper. Again, this is why I think they should've left it to the player's imagination rather than outright showing it. It felt like another case of forcing emotional drama instead of letting it build naturally.

I do like the unintended consequences aspect of the story, and it's really the only thing about the revenge plot that I do like. It's why I'll defend the length of Abby's compaign along with it feeling completely seperate from Ellie's tale. The whole idea is that Abby thinks she got hers and she just goes on with her life same as always. Ellie barely occupies any space in her memory at all, until she suddenly stands face to face with her and realizes this random girl just killed her friends. You can see it in Abby's face when she remembers.