Ghosts of Tsushima Review thread

hanselthecaretaker

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To be honest I wasn't expecting much, as it's a Rockstar game. My issue with Arthur, is the contradiction they have for the entire gang, and how the actions of the character, totally independent of MY actions as the player, are still often at odds with their concept of morality. I play Arthur as a nice person, who tries and helps people, and then the game yanks away all of my agency, and has him beat a man near to death. The game in fact, refuses to let me continue with the scene without me continuing to beat a man's face to a bloody pulp. I actually tried to stop beating him, you know, because I don't like playing a fucking psychopath with rage issues, and instead of the game having the option of letting you stop after several seconds of no input, and "coming to your senses" no, the game is like "No, you must beat him. YOU, the player, MUST continue to press the punch button, and bash this man's face until WE tell you you're done beating him." And then it's all just "oh hey he's fine, no big deal, I didn't hit him too bad (despite plenty of people in town commenting that the guy is REALLY fucked up now). Oh and yeah we're free and that's a GOOD thing! Them thar city folk are evil and bad!! Now let's go survive by being a parasite on their society and resources! Because our way of life is superior! But not at all sustainable! And sure, I murder and rob my way across the country, but it's OK, because I'm FREE!" And I'm just like "yeah, bullshit. That's utter, fucking bullshit, and I don't care. I don't care to be forced to play through your self-delusion on justification for your horrible actions, ESPECIALLY if the game gives me the false pretense of choice, when there isn't actually any choice in the matter."

This wouldn't be as big of an issue for me, if the game didn't pretend to give the player a choice in being an asshole or not. Because the Black/White hat meter, has no actual bearing on anything that I saw. People would still try and kill you at the drop of a hat for the smallest infraction in a town, often due to stupid fucking game mechanics about witnesses and actions. It didn't make people more amiable to me, it just moved that little bar left or right...that's it. Plus it was a dumb implementation too. I just murdered a guy, but hey go pay 10 bucks to the postal man, and it's clear, and then just walk around town saying "Howdy" to 30+ people, and all the negative karma I accrued from that murder, is balanced out on the scale. It's just not engaging for me. It's the trappings of choice, without actually having choice.

And that's my last comment on this in this thread, as our discussion is no longer directly about GOT, and I don't want to derail it any further. If you want to start a thread about this specifically sure, or PM me, that's fine. But i try and limit my derailing of threads as much as I can. And after 3 sets of quote/reply on a sidetopic, I try and draw the line there.
Does honor matter in GoT? From what I’ve read there doesn’t seem to be much point to it other than some dialog changes. For a samurai game and SP’s track record it would seem they’d have a system that would at least be on par with the inFamous games.

As for Red Dead, it’s understandable that the way it handles agency and narrative can be frustrating and off-putting, but it takes a lot more time than a chapter to see how it really affects anything story-wise. The little bar is just a visual reference point. The honor system is designed to be malleable so you’re not locked into one style the whole game. As cheesy as it is saying hi or paying off a bounty after a killing spree, it would be more frustrating to play if the game didn’t allow freedom to adjust on the fly somehow. It’s more up to the player to commit to a certain code than having the game hold you one.

The challenge the game has with making significant attempts at gamer agency is sticking to a strict narrative as a through line. The producer states in an interview,

“This is the story of something falling apart,” Nelson said. “In ‘Red Dead Redemption’s’ story John said I rode with a gang that left me to die. He references it a lot. We wanted to tell that story of why it unraveled.”

You can’t have a crafted narrative experience and simultaneously give any significant agency to the player without sacrificing something. This is why they made the choice to compromise with the latter in free roaming and had the missions themselves scripted, albeit admittedly a bit too much. But having said that, the assault on Braithwaite Manor wouldn’t have had the same impact if the player was off bumblefooting around trying to flank, lay traps in wait, stealth, etc. Same goes for the mission when the whole gang storms out on horseback with the native allies to take on the pinkertons.

As it is, the game still goes further than most towards blending the two in other ways. For instance it’ll thematically go out of its way towards making life difficult for a dishonorable playstyle. Does GoT’s difficulty level change at all depending on how you play? It sounds like the game more or less forces you to play “dishonorably” - ie stealthily - out of necessity to the plot.
 

happyninja42

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Does honor matter in GoT? From what I’ve read there doesn’t seem to be much point to it other than some dialog changes. For a samurai game and SP’s track record it would seem they’d have a system that would at least be on par with the inFamous games.
I'm not sure yet. I have my suspicions, based on the way certain actions you choose to take, trigger flashbacks. There isn't any Red/Blue Renegade/Paragon meter to compare it to, but the game does imply that acting dishonorably has consequences. I plan on replaying it and acting as honorable as the game allows (no stealth kills, no poison, nothing but open battles at all times unless forced by the narrative), and seeing if anything of significance is different.

As for Red Dead, it’s understandable that the way it handles agency and narrative can be frustrating and off-putting, but it takes a lot more time than a chapter to see how it really affects anything story-wise.
The problem with this, is it's the classic "Yeah but after 20 hours the game gets good" kind of argument, made famous by supporters of FF 13 trying to justify the plot. Sure, maybe the game becomes amazing after the start of act 3, I won't know because I don't have any desire to play any further as is. So far, the metric has no bearing whatsoever, yet it's constantly judging me and my actions according to that metric. I don't feel invested in the story, or the characters. I have zero empathy (except for the prostitutes, I like them) for the crew as a whole, or their plight (one they brought on themselves) and since I know that this is a prequel leading up to Dutch going batshit and driving everything to shit, I don't forsee anything redeeming or worth my mental effort. It's not a story I want to play. Again, maybe, MUCH later in the game, there is a silver lining of positive outcome, but if you are going to make me slog through 20+ hours of shitty people being shitty, and forcing me to do shitty things with them, I'm not going to play your game.

Does GoT’s difficulty level change at all depending on how you play?
Sort of? I mean discounting actually changing the difficulty setting, if you try and not fight like a ninja, and go in loud, you will be in open combat, which means a large melee, with multiple dudes attacking you from all sides, with different weapon styles, requiring you to shift your stances accordingly, all while archers shoot at you from the back field. And if you aren't good at the open combat, then yes you are going to have a harder playthrough. Also the missions often require you to save hostages, and if you go loud, one of the enemy units will go over and attempt to kill a hostage. If you don't kill them in time, you fail the mission, so that forces you to halt your offense, break through the enemy, and take out that ONE guy specifically, while fending off the others.
If you don't have armor or charms that accommodate open combat, it will be even tougher. It's generally easier to go stealth, in that the actual combat is much more controlled. It's ambush tactics, isolated enemies, setting traps, sniping, etc. And since you control when those happen, there is far less risk for you. Plus you can always run away and reset their agro, and try again for round 2.

It sounds like the game more or less forces you to play “dishonorably” - ie stealthily - out of necessity to the plot.
So far, it does force you at certain points yes. And I'm not a big fan of that personally. But I THINK, it might operate sort of like how Dishonored 1 did the achievement for low chaos, or no kills. I forget which, but I distinctly remember the game basically not counting killing the main targets for each stage when calculating if you did a violent/non-violent action. Since you were playing an assassin, who was tasked with removing these key targets, they didn't hold it against you for one of the achievements. Given when GOT triggers certain flashbacks, where they only trigger when YOU make a choice to do one of the non-scripted dishonorable actions, I think it's tracking it on some level. For example, at one point, you are taught how to make a poison. The mission forces you through that tutorial, but it doesn't give you the "using poison is bad mmkay? You shouldn't use poison kids." flashback, until the first time you use poison OUTSIDE of the tutorial mission. Same thing with assassinations. So if you go the whole game without doing it, I THINK, not sure, but think, that it will change something. This is currently a theory, I admit, but I'm still on my first playthrough. My plan is to beat it, see how it ends, and then play again as honorably as allowed, and see what changes. I suspect, at the very least, some dialogue might alter in certain scenes, but I would like for it to have actual impact.
 
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I've been mainly doing side quests, and just plain exploring. This is the most fun I'd ever had in an open world game in a long time. I still have to the requirements for act 1, yet there are stories for things like Lady Masako or Jin's Sensei. I'll play more tomorrow night, as I am also off on Thursday. So I can spend the whole day playing it. I don't care what certain critics say, as this is not "just another" open world game. Okay, sure, if you've been playing nothing but the bog standard Ubisoft/Rockstar AAA open world games this whole generation it might seem boring to the suppose person. But for someone like me that has not really touched an open-world/sandbox game GTA IV/Saints Row 2 (I did play GTAV in 2013, but my brother did most of the story), Ghost is a huge breath of fresh air. Technically Nier: Automata and God of War 4 are open world. but the former I barely explored and stuck with the main story. I felt no need to go back and do others side quests after achieving the main endings. The latter is more so semi-open/Metroidvania approach and I definitely got my money's worth in that game, nearly exploring everything.
 
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happyninja42

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I've been mainly doing side quests, and just plain exploring. This is the most fun I'd ever had in an open world game in a long time. I still have to the requirements for act 1, yet there are stories for things like Lady Masako or Jin's Sensei.
Yeah the sidequests are their own little mini-stories, and they're really good. I was enjoying following the story thread for those as much as the main plot.
 

happyninja42

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Game’s got street cred.
Yeah I agree with the Yakuza guy's comment about the facial expressions being really well done. The micro-expressions around the lips and eyes, tensing of muscles in the jawline to indicate restrained emotions, etc. They are all very well realized in the game, way better than most games of similar visual rendering quality.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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Yeah I agree with the Yakuza guy's comment about the facial expressions being really well done. The micro-expressions around the lips and eyes, tensing of muscles in the jawline to indicate restrained emotions, etc. They are all very well realized in the game, way better than most games of similar visual rendering quality.
Yeah I was blown away with TLoU2’s character rendering, and this sounds like it’s in that territory. Being able to see when they swallow saliva during speech is next level shit.
 

happyninja42

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Yeah I was blown away with TLoU2’s character rendering, and this sounds like it’s in that territory. Being able to see when they swallow saliva during speech is next level shit.
Haven't played TLoU2 yet, so can't really compare, but they seem to be on par. Though my TV isn't really super top quality, and fidelity of image like that has never been a high priority for me, so I don't really notice it much, as it's just not something that I consider a huge component to a good game. But I did notice in GOT that the very subtle communication humans do with minor facial expressions, were very well captured, to the point that I actually noticed it.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Call me crazy, but the significance of the fox in the game wouldn’t have anything to do with...idk, the Creative Director’s last name, would it?
 

happyninja42

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Call me crazy, but the significance of the fox in the game wouldn’t have anything to do with...idk, the Creative Director’s last name, would it?
Maybe? I mean foxes have some pretty heavy mythical and cultural significance in asian countries. I mean I didn't know the guy's name is Fox, and it didn't phase me at all that the mystical creature that leads you around to shrines is a fox. That seemed totally legit based on shinto/mystical/cultural elements. Was it also a little easter egg regarding his name? *shrugs* Maybe.
 

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I think I'm done with this game. Its usually a bad sign when I can't bring myself to turn the game on and for the last week I have been struggling to find the the enthusiasm to play it. The combat is fun and the world is pretty, but that is about it. The world is dead, there is nothing to do when travelling from mission to mission. Oh sure, you might find a random battle or a fox to follow. But other than that, what else is there? There is no thrill of "what's that over there?" that most open world games boast because its usually nothing interest, you might get a few supplies or crafting items, but usually its nothing. Even the beauty of this game wears off after a while. Its more like a walking simulator than it is a normal game.

People have mentioned Dishonoured in discussion about this game and I wonder if a similar style would of made for a better game. Maybe some open levels that you can stealth or fight your way through would of worked better than an empty and quite frankly boring open world. You could even have that weather thing to show how dishonourable you are as mentioned.

I don't know, I'll give it another go at the weekend and see if I can find the fun. Maybe at some point Sucker Punch will add a patch that adds some life to the world. But yeah, I think I'm done with this.
 

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The gameplay loop is wearing a bit thin on me as well. I'm at the end of Act 2 and I have every skill I want. Not even the prospect of new armor is getting me that interested. The combat is still fun and challenging enough (on Hard), but at this point I'm just doing the same thing over and over. And the story doesn't feel like it has enough of a presence to really drive me forward. I think the story is good and I like the characters, but the story only really makes itself known near the start and the end of each Act. Inbetween, which is a lot of time, you're just kinda doing missions that don't feel like they have much bearing on the overarching narrative. There's no real glue that binds the overall lore and narrative together.
 

happyninja42

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Ok so, just beat it last night, short version, really enjoyed it. It's got some flaws, but seeing as a lot of the general design is cribbed from other games, I can't really say the flaws are unique to GOT. Overall, fun game, and I'm starting my "Honor" playthrough today, to see if anything fundamentally changes. Don't think so, but we'll see.

So, things I didn't like. Pretty much all of these can include the preface "But it's the same as another open world sandbox that it took this mechanic from"

1. The horse mechanics. I can't stand trying to use a horse in these games. Horizon Zero dawn (the game GOT most reminds me of on the negative points), Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey, pretty much all of them have terrible horse physics, that just annoy me. The triggers that make your horse stop dead because you can't proceed are weird when compared to on foot, and you will find yourself being stopped on terrain that on foot, you could sort of hop over and keep going. Plus with all the verticality of the game, trying to actually ride around on horseback is an effort in frustration, as you have to stop, try and find an alternate route down/up the sheer cliff in front of you....or just jump down/climb up on foot. Then you resummon the horse and ride for maybe 100 meters and then have to do it again. The wandering patrols of mongols also cause this to be an issue, as horse combat is terrible, so you might as well just hop off the horse and run around. The fact that the game has a fast travel system, and almost zero load time (which was amazing the entire game), it's just far less hassle to run everywhere. If it's 200 meters away, you can run there in like 20 seconds. If it's farther away than that, odds are good you can fast travel to somewhere closer, and just run the rest.

2. The linear climbing/mantling system. Again, this is almost identical to H:ZD. Where you can only climb/parkour/mantle where the devs have deemed you worthy to climb. I find this annoying, especially when they give me a rope and hook, with the idea that it is going to free up my ability to traverse, when the reality is it just opens up the specific lanes that require the hook. Also, the fact that the game mandates a single path when scaling obstacles, makes the fact that it doesn't magnetize you to the various points annoying as shit. I mean, I'm climbing along a wall, there is NO choice on which way I go, because the devs made it that way. And it requires an input of direction stick and jump button to progress. But, apparently I had the stick pointed a few degrees too far down instead of right, so instead of just jumping to the ONLY FREAKING THING OF INTEREST TO THE RIGHT OF ME...the game decides "oh, you want to LEAP OFF TO YOUR DEATH by jumping back? Okie doke! " And Jin goes flying off at a 90 degree angle to where I wanted to go. If you're going to remove all ability for me to choose my own path when climbing, don't have room for failure by having the inputs be variable. I mean you've got me on this climbing railroad, why give me the option to derail it?

3. The hook is basically useless. Aside from the above mentioned linear climbing paths that require the hook to proceed, the hook is basically useless for just random traversing of a location. You would think it would allow you the opportunity to scale buildings to get a higher elevation vantage point when assaulting a mongol base right? Wrong. Very often, the buildings have no such hook points, or if they do, it's so high up, that you literally can't get to them from the ground. They're designed, I think, to allow you a way back down from the roof, but....I don't want back DOWN, I'm already down, it's where I started on this map. Let me use it to quickly get up on this building from this side damnit! It would be the ideal angle to get an ambush strike on that guard below. But no, the only way up for that building is on the other side....right next to the guy I want to kill...making it where I have to kill him to safely get on the roof....which removes the point of me getting on the roof in the first place.

4. The currency system revolving around supplies really irked me, given how often the drama of a particular encounter with the people was they were starving. And I'm sitting on literally 1000+ supplies (which are depicted as bundles of food), and I can't provide it to them. And I'm just standing there going "I've got enough food for a village for a year, and you guys are fighting over a squirrel? Why can't I just give them this food?!" I'd rather they'd had the currency be something other than food, if famine was going to be a narrative element. Just a bit of...I guess it would be ludonarrative dissonance? *shrugs* Broke immersion for me a bit.

5. The gear/charm system. Again, hello there Horizon: Zero Dawn! I can't stand the idea of having like 20 outfits, all with different power sets, and also various charms for different situations. It's incredibly silly to me, to be constantly going through a wardrobe change, based on the moment, and also having to switch out charms accordingly. The fact that the game doesn't let you record sets to quickly switch between (something Odyssey did that was very nice), makes it extra annoying. I'm sneaking along, so I put on my Sneaky Pants, and spend 2 minutes on the menu, changing out my charms to maximize my sneakiness. Then the mission changes to an open conflict, or I fluff the stealth and get detected, so I pause the screen, quickly change out of armor mid combat (while the mongols ogle me I suppose), to my Fighty Pants, and then again switch out the charms to my loud set. I hate this in games. It interrupts the flow of the game so much, and scrolling through 30+ charms for each of the 6 slots, becomes somewhat mind numbing. I hated doing it in H:ZD, hate doing it here. Odyssey made it less annoying with preset armor builds, but it's still mood breaking to change out my clothes mid combat. I literally describe it as changing to my *Insert Name* Pants. Because it happens so much it just because a farce.

6. The skill progression was super quick. Others have commented on this, and they're right. If you are even remotely trying to do the majority of the side missions, you will find yourself maxing out the skills very quickly. Roughly in Act 2 I think, is where I basically bought everything I wanted/needed, and then just spent my new technique points on filling out the other trees. But seeing as I rarely used those things, it was basically just filler. I maxed out my level, and still had a technique point left over? Exactly one point, which I found strange. Again, this is a common issue I've seen with openworld sandboxes, where you eventually have bought all you want, and the rest just really doesn't apply to your style. Odyssey had a slight improvement on this, in that you could invest your extra points into incremental percent increases to your base stats and combats, making it at least still productive.

7. The combat could be a bit loose. I found I'd often be doing some charged strike with Triangle, to attack an enemy and break their guard...but instead Jin does the attack like 5 degrees to the left or right of the target. And the mongol didn't dodge or anything, Jin was just drunk apparently. I don't really understand why this is, because it's obvious the game can "lock on" with the melee attacks, as later in the game, you unlock 2 abilities that do exactly that. When triggered they straight up zip you over to the nearest enemy, and pretty much just Apply Death as the effect. So the game CAN do a lock on system, without actually locking on. Just interpreting that you want to hit this guy, because he's the nearest target in the direction you pointed. But no, sometimes it's REALLY picky about that, and demands precise angle pointing at the target...even when it's literally a 1v1 duel, so who else would I be trying to cut?

8. Day/Night cycle is very short. Again, not unique to GOT, but I've never understood why these cycles have to be like 10 minutes? I mean it's just stupid. Let me have longer day/night cycles damnit! It made for a really goofy mongol base assault, that technically took me 3 days to complete, going by the day/night cycles as I took my time to stealth all of it.

9. Little variation on how to resolve missions. I found one...ONE mission, that the ultimate conclusion to the problem didn't involve "Find Problem, Insert Katana Until Resolved" If you are sneaky enough to steal something back for a person, you can complete it without any deaths. That's pretty much the only time. I get it's a samurai/war game, but some variation would've been nice.

10. The cosmetics. I don't need 300 headbands that are only slightly different, 300 masks, and 300 hats.

Those are the key negatives I have about the game. And despite going into detail about why I didn't like them, for me at least, they weren't any major hindrance to my enjoyment of the game. They would make for brief moments of frustration if I had a cascade failure of little things, but overall, they didn't detract from my enjoyment.

And this damn forum seems to dislike my full post, so I had to cut it in half to make it accept it.
 

happyninja42

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Part 2!!! Stupid forum design

Things I liked:

1. The combat could be so cinematically awesome! Ok so, this isn't any surprise to anyone who has played it, but the game is visually stunning. The sky painted in various shades as the day/night cycle, the wind blowing through the fields, the fact that almost every location is designed to look amazing in a widescreen shot as you fight. They really took their time to make it where any battle you got into, pretty much anywhere, would be visually stunning. And some of the times I would have these organic combat moments that just made me grin like a fool. One example: I'm fighting a mongol camp, going loud. It's a melee of about 5+ guys, and I take out one of them with a Heavenly Strike attack, which, if it kills a foe, has a chance to make that foe's allies become scared of you for a moment. I had this happen to a mongol, who proceeded to back his way into a mongol hut nearby. I followed him in, sword in high guard, pushing through the doorway tarp. I proceeded to strike into the room blind (the tarp was blocking the camera at that moment), broke his guard as we advanced across the hut, and I proceeded to do another Heavenly Strike on him. Now, the fun tidbit, is that the other door into the hut, was directly opposite the one we entered from, and my sliding dash attack, proceeded to make me exit the hut in a dramatic kill shot, pushing the tarp out of my way, and bringing me into view, blood on my blade, to his allies. Who, understandably, lost their shit at just how FUCKING BADASS I FELT AT THAT MOMENT!! It was just so perfectly done! And it wasn't planned, it just...played out that way. And the game is FILLED with moments like that. Doing a Standoff duel with 3 enemies at sunset, on the edge of a cliff overlooking the ocean. Getting all 3 killed in one duel sequence, which ends with the camera panning around me, and slowing down, as the arc of blood fans out behind my blade, glinting off the settting sun, as I'm cast in silhouette from the lighting. Then the silence of the aftermath, broken only by the wind in the reeds as I flick my blade clean, and sheath it. It just really hit that movie fan button in me, that I really didn't know was something I wanted in a samurai game.

Later in the game, you get an ability, one of my above mentioned "Move to target, Apply Death" abilities, but the way the world around you reacts to using that ability, is just SO satisyfing. There was nothing more empowering than to be in a field of reeds, coming at a mongol patrol of 6+ dudes, triggering that ability, and watching the world around me begin to reverberate with my power, and to see them panic as I stalk at them. Then when that ability wore off, I'd trigger another Apply Death ability, to clear out more of them, and then the last one would usually run in terror. It just, made you feel like such a badass, and it was great.

2. It's gorgeous. What? You were expecting a paragraph? It's gorgeous, nuff said.

3. The acting of the cast is really great. Couple that with the level of detail in their micro-expressions, and it was a joy to play through the side missions for my allies. I felt genuinely invested in their stories, and wanted to see them to their conclusions. They were each given well developed motivations, interpersonal drama between various people that added layers of intrigue and drama. Yuna and Jin in particular were standout performances for me. I really loved Yuna, she was just so much fun when she was on screen.

4. The cosmetics. They give you 300 headbands, 300 masks, and 300 hats. None of it via microtransactions! Yes I listed it as a negative, because I don't give a shit about cosmetics that much, so having so many rewards just be New Hat/Headband 313, got tiresome. But I appreciate that they didn't carve that shit out and try and sell it to me via microtransactions. So that the people who REALLY care about all that stuff, they've got a field day of things to play with when playing dressup.

I'm probably forgetting a few more positives, but the majority of the love for the game is in the combat and visuals of it. Yes, numerically I listed over twice as many negatives, but honestly they were fairly minor things. And while the game is very minimalist in what it does, for me at least, it does those things REALLY well. It wants to recreate a samurai film, and provide as many of the elements of those Kurosawa films as they could fit in the game. So they focused on those elements and polished them to a fine shine. And I enjoyed it a lot.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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^That’s funny, because I thought the (rideable) stuff in Horizon was pretty damn solid mechanics-wise. There’s ledges that I thought “now way” on that they’ll just clamber up like champs. Plus I like how you can aim in all directions when on horseback, and jump on and off without issue. You don’t even have to get off them to loot or harvest stuff.
 

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Here is GGmanlives review. For those interested. I am almost done with act one now, but I'm going to do a couple more side quest so I can finish unlocking the final stance. I'll play more tomorrow when I'm off that day.

 
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gorfias

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Here is GGmanlives review. For those interested. I am almost done with act one now, but I'm going to do a couple more side quest so I can finish unlocking the final stance. I'll play more tomorrow when I'm off that day.

Phew. Is it like Final Fantasy 13... Do you agree with GGmanlives that you have to play for a dozen hours before you really enjoy it?
 

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Phew. Is it like Final Fantasy 13... Do you agree with GGmanlives that you have to play for a dozen hours before you really enjoy it?
I do feel that the beginning of the game is the weakest part-- without upgrades etc, combat is barebones to begin with, and you're pretty restricted in where you can go and what you can do.

But for me at least, it certainly wasn't a dozen hours kind of thing. It opened up after just about an hour.
 
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