TLOU2 Review Thread

[Chimpzy]

I believe Neil Druckman in a game developers conference stated specifically that he did not want to make his female characters attractive. There is a GDC youtube video.

Which i think is the reason for the design of the ladies. This adds to the reason why people dislike Abby. Her design is deliberately meant to be a put off for people.

When you design characters for an outside belief that very few other people share, you essentially are purposelessly designing characters to be alienating.

The simple fact of life is, everyone EVERYONE likes attractive characters. Regardless of personal preferences that might tip your scale in other directions, nobody looks at a character like Lara Croft and thinks, "Damn she gross." Even if you arent getting your buttons pushed by her, you also arent put off by her due to her just registering as "standard female protagonist #33".

That isnt to say somebody doesnt find Abby hot. Even if someone finds her attractive, there is also no argument that other characters of more traditional attractiveness arent also attractive.

People wonder why characters are always attractive men and women of non offensive skin tone, and the simple answer is to appeal to the majority. Generic characters are safe, thats why most of them are "generic".

I'm well aware why game characters are generally Hollywood attractive (or at worst Hollywood homely), I'm simply a little bemused that unattractive generally matters way way less for whether or not a character is liked when that character's a man. For example, Trevor from GTAV is an ugly piece of shit, both on the in- and outside, but he's arguably the fan favorite. That's just one of course, but I could name more well-liked ugly dudes. A lot more. Whereas I'm having the hardest time thinking of a well-liked ugly female character. Kreia from Kotor2 maybe, but she's not so much ugly as just old (and later on dark-side-y).

 

[CriticalGaming]

For example, Trevor from GTAV is an ugly piece of shit, both on the in- and outside, but he's arguably the fan favorite.

Well that's because personality matters. And sometimes the comically ugly adds to the charm of a character.

Ugly is a different character design that intentionally un-attractive. Like in the last of us the characters are all not "ugly" but they are deliberately designed to be unremarkably unattractive. The real woman Dina is designed after is much better looking in real life than in the game, because the deliberately downgraded her. Not enough to make her ugly by any means, but they changed just enough that it shades over her. Abby is not designed to be ugly, but she's also designed to not be attractive. Which is kind of the point.

As for Ugly well-liked females in gaming.

Ellie - from Borderlands
Milliena - Mortal Kombat
Sheeva - also Mortal Kombat
Birdo - Super Mario Series
Tali - Mass Effect (mostly cuz you never see her and she only has three fingers)
Freya - Final Fantasy 9
Moira - Fallout 3
Karrigan - StarCraft (post zergification)
Kassandra (Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, personal taste of mine but I didn't find her attractive and she is loved)

Just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more side characters and stuff that if i thought about it would work.

also you should check out Magic the Gathering because there are tons of female monsters that people love and cosplay and all kinds of crazy fan stuff with.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

It's really not just not being hot though. You can have someone look plain and frumpy but that's not gonna make people hate the character or even actively dislike em, it'll be more like an apathetic meh.

So it's less about being unattractive and more how in particular she is unattractive, not by being ugly in a way that you can fix in some way, say with a diet or a wardrobe update or a nose job, but rather by being more fundamentally off-putting in a core sense.

Like CriticalGaming said ND even specifically stated they wanted their (female characters at least) to be plain looking at the very least, let alone non-sexualized. So yeah, aside from Ellie who was already established from the first game, they pretty much went out of their way to make their characters...the definition of drab. Abby’s in particular is a peculiar concoction. There’s the face model, the body model, and finally the VA, which ironically is by far the most feminine looking ingredient. I mean, the face model does too but not so much per her in-game translation. Also ironic if it’s true that Druckmann’s had a crush on the VA. Clearly wouldn’t be an example of real life imitating art.

Speaking of unattractive, Abby’s still got nothing on Mel. Looks like she already had Cordyceps.

 

[Chimpzy]

As for Ugly well-liked females in gaming.

Ellie - from Borderlands
Milliena - Mortal Kombat
Sheeva - also Mortal Kombat
Birdo - Super Mario Series
Tali - Mass Effect (mostly cuz you never see her and she only has three fingers)
Freya - Final Fantasy 9
Moira - Fallout 3
Karrigan - StarCraft (post zergification)
Kassandra (Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, personal taste of mine but I didn't find her attractive and she is loved)

Well, guess I should give my own two cents about these. Birdo and Freya aren't human (or very close to human in that green-skinned space babe way). Don't think conventionally (un)attractive standards apply to them. I agree with Ellie (tho there's people into BBW, but that's of course an outlier) and Moira. Tho in Moira's defense, creating good looks in that game's character creator is really fucking hard and everyone in it looks gonky (without mods). Sheeva is borderline, I guess. Guess that depends if you're into Grace Jones (cuz let's face it, Sheeva is Grace Jones with extra arms). Which leaves:

Mileena: The hotter and more dangerous version of Kitana, who already invokes the sexy ninja trope. Basically an attractive swimsuit model/pornstar, with one monstruous bit slapped on which is hidden most of the time, probably to not distract too much from how sexy the rest of her is, and usually comes dressed in some of the most stripperific outfits out of the entire cast.
Kerrigan: Another Hollywood attractive woman with a swimsuit model body with monster bits stuck on. More of them this time, but also in such as way that doesn't cover up the pretty face and nice body. The opposite in some ways even, like how it gives her smokey eyes, lipstick, high heels, and on her torso what looks like one of those bdsm corsets that leave the boobs out.
Tali: Has the same swimsuit model body every other Human, Asari and Quarian woman has in this series. Ok no, Quarians are a little smaller and more waifish. Clad in skintight suit. Not sure if it's every explained why in-universe, seems rather unnecessary for a sealed suit save for maybe saving on material, but considering all female armors/suits in this setting is rather curve-hugging, I'm guessing the out-of-universe reason is increased sex appeal. I'll admit, not as blatant about it as Mileena or Kerrigan.
Kassandra: Not that familiar with this one, but looking at art and screens, yeah, good-looking lass, especially considering she's a mercenary in ancient times. I mean, her face is astoundingly unblemished for someone with no access to modern skincare and make-up. Maybe not everyone's thing, but not what I'd call ugly. Not even plain (tho you've already pointed out its a personal taste thing, which ... fair enough)

In short, while tastes of course differ, I strongly disagree that these characters were designed to be ugly, or even just unattractive.

 

[CriticalGaming]

In short, while tastes of course differ, I strongly disagree that these characters were designed to be ugly, or even just unattractive.

It wasn't about their design to be unattractive or ugly. Your previous point was that ugly female characters are not beloved, and I just listed popular ugly girls, that's all.

 

[Dreiko]

I'm well aware why game characters are generally Hollywood attractive (or at worst Hollywood homely), I'm simply a little bemused that unattractive generally matters way way less for whether or not a character is liked when that character's a man. For example, Trevor from GTAV is an ugly piece of shit, both on the in- and outside, but he's arguably the fan favorite. That's just one of course, but I could name more well-liked ugly dudes. A lot more. Whereas I'm having the hardest time thinking of a well-liked ugly female character. Kreia from Kotor2 maybe, but she's not so much ugly as just old (and later on dark-side-y).

That's just because males are more visual in whether they find someone attractive or unattractive, which will depend on their look way more, whereas women are more cerebral and find things like confidence or wealth attractive, so Trevor has some venues for being attractive because of that. He has that crazy bad boy (on meth) vibe to him which is cool so that's why he's the fan favorite of the game.

Like CriticalGaming said ND even specifically stated they wanted their (female characters at least) to be plain looking at the very least, let alone non-sexualized. So yeah, aside from Ellie who was already established from the first game, they pretty much went out of their way to make their characters...the definition of drab. Abby’s in particular is a peculiar concoction. There’s the face model, the body model, and finally the VA, which ironically is by far the most feminine looking ingredient. I mean, the face model does too but not so much per her in-game translation. Also ironic if it’s true that Druckmann’s had a crush on the VA. Clearly wouldn’t be an example of real life imitating art.

Speaking of unattractive, Abby’s still got nothing on Mel. Looks like she already had Cordyceps.

Ellie I always found pretty cute, had no issue with her look. She's definitely not sexualized but that's really not an issue as I've illustrated already. She wasn't plain, just a bit of a tomboy. I don't have issues with tomboys lol.

As for the VA, she does a bunch of anime lolis in dubs and while I don't listen to dubs I know that she can be super feminine. Though again males are more visual and less auditory about these things.

 

[BrawlMan]

Related to Jim's vid, I do find it funny none of these assholes complain about the muscular women in Street Fighter, fan service or not. I know most of them probably don't play them, but some of them crossover. At least half of the women in SF are more jacked than Abby, Even some of the women with a more athletic build. The ones that come to my mind more jacked than Abby, are Chun-Li, R.Mika, and Makoto (remove the gi and you realize she is buff for a 15 year old). Then we have Estel from Streets of Rage 4. These fuckers definitely did not raise a fuss over her. We actual SOR fans accepted her with open arms. The worst we can say is that she was a used, lazy boss, that you had to fight twice with not much variation in the second encounter. None of us bitched about her being too muscular. And again, Estel has more muscle and is taller than Abby. Like Jimmy said, these fuckers will defend one or two body types, but don't want any others to exists and act like they have the final fucking says so. Acting all wannabe mob boss.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Related to Jim's vid, I do find it funny none of these assholes complain about the muscular women in Street Fighter, fan service or not. I know most of them probably don't play them, but some of them crossover. At least half of the women in SF are more jacked than Abby, Even some of the women with a more athletic build. The ones that come to my mind more jacked than Abby, are Chun-Li, R.Mika, and Makoto (remove the gi and you realize she is buff for a 15 year old). Then we have Estel from Streets of Rage 4. These fuckers definitely did not raise a fuss over her. We actual SOR fans accepted her with open arms. The worst we can say is that she was a used, lazy boss, that you had to fight twice with not much variation in the second encounter. None of us bitched about her being too muscular. And again, Estel has more muscle and is taller than Abby. Like Jimmy said, these fuckers will defend one or two body types, but don't want any others to exists and act like they have the final fucking says so. Acting all wannabe mob boss.

I explained the reason for this already.

People hate abby and the last of us 2. They dont actually care that she has muscles. They are just finding everything possible to rag on.

It ultimately has nothing to do with Abby's design as much as it has to do with how disappointed this game made the fans.

 

[BrawlMan]

I explained the reason for this already.

People hate abby and the last of us 2. They dont actually care that she has muscles. They are just finding everything possible to rag on.

It ultimately has nothing to do with Abby's design as much as it has to do with how disappointed this game made the fans.

I know you told me and I did not forget. I just wanted to add my own commentary and thought. Some can't express their thoughts properly, and other can express their thoughts. Either way, they're thundering dumbasses.

 

[Dreiko]

Related to Jim's vid, I do find it funny none of these assholes complain about the muscular women in Street Fighter, fan service or not. I know most of them probably don't play them, but some of them crossover. At least half of the women in SF are more jacked than Abby, Even some of the women with a more athletic build. The ones that come to my mind more jacked than Abby, are Chun-Li, R.Mika, and Makoto (remove the gi and you realize she is buff for a 15 year old). Then we have Estel from Streets of Rage 4. These fuckers definitely did not raise a fuss over her. We actual SOR fans accepted her with open arms. The worst we can say is that she was a used, lazy boss, that you had to fight twice with not much variation in the second encounter. None of us bitched about her being too muscular. And again, Estel has more muscle and is taller than Abby. Like Jimmy said, these fuckers will defend one or two body types, but don't want any others to exists and act like they have the final fucking says so. Acting all wannabe mob boss.

Yeah this is just the same point I was making in the previous page about the Amazon from Dragon's Crown.

Chars like Mika or hell even Poison who is supposed to be trans or something still are accepted just fine, so it's not like there's an issue with muscles or trans characters or what have you.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Yeah, can't say I was a fan of Abby's design.

I actually really like her design at the very end of the game quite a bit more. The leaner design with the more squared off shoulders just looks a lot better and more realistic.

Yes, women can be muscular, but to get as muscular as Abby pretty much requires steroids or a pretty extreme hormone imbalance.

I'd say you guys need to visit more working farms, but it's best not to travel these days.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Like CriticalGaming said ND even specifically stated they wanted their (female characters at least) to be plain looking at the very least, let alone non-sexualized. So yeah, aside from Ellie who was already established from the first game, they pretty much went out of their way to make their characters...the definition of drab. Abby’s in particular is a peculiar concoction. There’s the face model, the body model, and finally the VA, which ironically is by far the most feminine looking ingredient. I mean, the face model does too but not so much per her in-game translation. Also ironic if it’s true that Druckmann’s had a crush on the VA. Clearly wouldn’t be an example of real life imitating art.

Speaking of unattractive, Abby’s still got nothing on Mel. Looks like she already had Cordyceps.

Maybe I'm just easy to please, but how do Dina, Nora, and Yara look "drab" i.e. "ugly"? These are very attractive looking girls, and so is Abby if you're not the type to get grossed out by muscles. How are these woman more ugly than the ones in the first TLoU? At best these women look like they don't care to really pretty themselves up since they live in a dangerous world of scarcity. But even then Dina finds time to make herself look pretty for festive gatherings.

If Naughty Dog wanted to go out of their way to make ugly women... why didn't they?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Maybe I'm just easy to please, but how do Dina, Nora, and Yara look "drab" i.e. "ugly"? These are very attractive looking girls, and so is Abby if you're not the type to get grossed out by muscles. How are these woman more ugly than the ones in the first TLoU? At best these women look like they don't care to really pretty themselves up since they live in a dangerous world of scarcity. But even then Dina finds time to make herself look pretty for festive gatherings.

If Naughty Dog wanted to go out of their way to make ugly women... why didn't they?

This is an example of something - surprise surprise - entirely subjective. The only person in the game I could say caused me to recoil a bit at their appearance was Mel, but at the same time none of the others were anything special ie made me think naughty thoughts (no pun). So I guess, mission accomplished on their part.

Anyways,

The Last of Us Part II Update Adds Grounded Difficulty, Permadeath Mode, and More || Naughty Dog

www.naughtydog.com

Nice to see it doesn’t affect Platinum. If I didn’t have so much else to play I’d probably give both of those modes a college try.

 

[Casual Shinji]

This is an example of something - surprise surprise - entirely subjective. The only person in the game I could say caused me to recoil a bit at their appearance was Mel, but at the same time none of the others were anything special ie made me think naughty thoughts (no pun). So I guess, mission accomplished on their part.

They didn't make me think naughty thoughts either, but I could still recognize them as attractive people. And it's not about subjectivity, it's about accusing Naughty Dog of going out of their way to make the women specifically look drab and unappealing. 'How dare they make women look somewhat less attractive in a world where the cosmetics industry doesn't exist anymore.' Also, none of these claims are leveled toward the male characters, surprise surprise. Unless I missed the complaints about Bill looking like an overweight, hairy transient.

 

[Gyrobot]

Maybe I'm just easy to please, but how do Dina, Nora, and Yara look "drab" i.e. "ugly"? These are very attractive looking girls, and so is Abby if you're not the type to get grossed out by muscles. How are these woman more ugly than the ones in the first TLoU? At best these women look like they don't care to really pretty themselves up since they live in a dangerous world of scarcity. But even then Dina finds time to make herself look pretty for festive gatherings.

If Naughty Dog wanted to go out of their way to make ugly women... why didn't they?

Because them angry weebs are rising up again because their precious anime girls are getting censored while being force fed unattractive Western characters in gaming. Unless they have cleavage window outfits and low cut shorts with obvious things, it's obviously a travesty that requires them to hate such games on principle

 

[Dreiko]

Because them angry weebs are rising up again because their precious anime girls are getting censored while being force fed unattractive Western characters in gaming. Unless they have cleavage window outfits and low cut shorts with obvious things, it's obviously a travesty that requires them to hate such games on principle

Yeah man, I'm just so mad all the waifus were turned into angry mongols in the ghost of tsushima to appease the feminists, how will I be able to fap at my kurosawa-inspired videogame!?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

They didn't make me think naughty thoughts either, but I could still recognize them as attractive people. And it's not about subjectivity, it's about accusing Naughty Dog of going out of their way to make the women specifically look drab and unappealing. 'How dare they make women look somewhat less attractive in a world where the cosmetics industry doesn't exist anymore.' Also, none of these claims are leveled toward the male characters, surprise surprise. Unless I missed the complaints about Bill looking like an overweight, hairy transient.

I always thought it was pretty commonly known that they deliberately made the female character designs somewhat androgynous, apparently in efforts to avoid offending certain groups. That often has its own implications though. As it is it’s not something that bothers me anyways as there’s plenty of other games that flaunt femininity however exaggerated it might be, and it fits those games to great effect. Here like you said, it doesn’t matter in this setting so much. But like mentioned earlier, Druckmann even delivered a whole speech on the subject of how he thinks females should be presented in games in a non-sexual way, even though that aspect certainly found its way into this game far more prominently than any other from ND.

I stand by my drab comment though, as that’s basically what the theme of this whole world has more or less turned into in other respects. It’s one more way to honor the subject matter, similar to the violence.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Yeah man, I'm just so mad all the waifus were turned into angry mongols in the ghost of tsushima to appease the feminists, how will I be able to fap at my kurosawa-inspired videogame!?

Nice sarcasm, but gamers were having a fit over Tifa's boobs not being as large as they were on the more chibi and cartoonish representation of her. Also, Aerth's face which apparently looked too adult and not cute enough till they changed it. This type of shit totally exists and don't pretend it doesn't.

And it's good you mentioned Ghost of Tsushima, because the creator of Yakuza commented on its succes in Japan and how it surprised him since the main protagonist was middle-aged and ugly. Which shows how warped some of the parameters among gamers are. A little bit more warped in Japan, but there you go.

I always thought it was pretty commonly known that they deliberately made the female character designs somewhat androgynous, apparently in efforts to avoid offending certain groups. That often has its own implications though. As it is it’s not something that bothers me anyways as there’s plenty of other games that flaunt femininity however exaggerated it might be, and it fits those games to great effect. Here like you said, it doesn’t matter in this setting so much. But like mentioned earlier, Druckmann even delivered a whole speech on the subject of how he thinks females should be presented in games in a non-sexual way, even though that aspect certainly found its way into this game far more prominently than any other from ND.

I stand by my drab comment though, as that’s basically what the theme of this whole world has more or less turned into in other respects. It’s one more way to honor the subject matter, similar to the violence.

Which female designs look androgynous though, apart maybe from Abby? Unless we're equating what the majority of men find bangable with femininity, which would be a mistake.

And yeah, the game looks drab, but the women weren't specifically targeted to look especially drab. They just look like women in a drab setting, just like the men do.

And unless Druckmann said women in games should ONLY be presented in a non-sexual way I'd disagree, but if he meant the sexualization of women in games (and media in general) should really be dailed down, then yeah, he's totally right.

 

[Dreiko]

Nice sarcasm, but gamers were having a fit over Tifa's boobs not being as large as they were on the more chibi and cartoonish representation of her. Also, Aerth's face which apparently looked too adult and not cute enough till they changed it. This type of shit totally exists and don't pretend it doesn't.

And it's good you mentioned Ghost of Tsushima, because the creator of Yakuza commented on its succes in Japan and how it surprised him since the main protagonist was middle-aged and ugly. Which shows how warped some of the parameters among gamers are. A little bit more warped in Japan, but there you go.

There's nothing warped about beauty being desirable. There's nothing warped about middle age gruff dudes being harder to market. That's why when you have a race there's hot chicks in tight leather waving the flag and not middle aged office workers. The only warped thing here is pretending it's abnormal to have a healthy appreciation for beauty and to prefer things which contain some measure of it. The Yakuza guy's point basically is that the game is good enough to not even need any marketing to do well, which is just a normal observation and only ignorance as to the workings of marketing (especially in Japan where you get varying degrees of lewd shop-based preorder fanart for a bunch of games) would see it as something noteworthy.

I think Tifa's smaller than her own Dissidia version as well as her depiction in AC but either way, you can't conflate the people who complained about such a thing with the entire body of the Japanese and anime-themed culture fandom. I dunno the thing about Aeris, first time I heard of it, I stayed in the dark until the game was out to avoid spoilers so unless it was being talked about somewhere tangential to something I was looking I wouldn't have seen it.

But yeah either way, a thing existing, and it being the core thing a group does, are vastly different things. Nothing of what you mention is censorship either, so that's irrelevant to what I was responding to. It's more like authenticity and wanting the characters to remain original. I completely understand where the people who complained about Tifa are coming from (no idea about the Aeris bit) since her theme has always been having a huge chest, and that actually has nothing to do with my preferences, as I tend to be a flat is justice connoisseur myself. You can understand and agree with something even if it isn't your personal taste, simply because it's right or what it's supposed to be. The people complaining about Tifa aren't the caricature you are making them out to be, they just want final fantasy to be final fantasy as much as possible. There's no shortage of big chested girls in other games and shows and what have you. Clearly we won't have a shortage if Tifa is shrunk some.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

And it's good you mentioned Ghost of Tsushima, because the creator of Yakuza commented on its succes in Japan and how it surprised him since the main protagonist was middle-aged and ugly. Which shows how warped some of the parameters among gamers are. A little bit more warped in Japan, but there you go.

Which is fucking weird considering this is one of the main playable characters in Yakuza 4:

Spoiler: An ugly middle aged dude

And he's one of the most popular characters and appears in 4 games.