Democrats retreat on fossil fuel and clean energy subsidies a day into DNC

[Buyetyen]

Case in point, if you have smoke detectors, you literally have "nuclear waste" in your home and don't realize it. Am-241 is a critical component of it, smoke detectors can't function without it. Am-241 is a fission byproduct, totally safe (unless you eat it or shoot it up) because it's an alpha emitter.

Will it give me radiation poisoning? No? Then this is ultimately just a bit of interesting trivia.

Sure, plutonium manufacture represents a big proliferation problem, but the flip side of that is we need the shit for space exploration. We basically just sent the last of what NASA had at its disposal to Mars last month, and we'd actually been buying it from Russia of all countries for twenty years. Now basically our space program's on hold except for what devices can be powered by solar until ORNL can manufacture enough plutonium for NASA. And we have metric tons of the shit sitting inside spent nuclear fuel rods across the country, we can't access because we don't reprocess.

Here's the part where I'm going to lose all the Elon Musk fans, but I consider averting a climate apocalypse on this planet to be a higher priority than finding another planet to make the same mistakes on. I love space exploration too, but let's be real. Our problems right now are primarily of the terrestrial variety.

If we reprocessed and started building gen-4 reactors, "nuclear waste" actually wouldn't be a problem. We could reprocess spent nuclear fuel, sequester the byproducts with commercial, research, and industrial use, and recycle the long-lived heavy actinides. The biggest barrier to it is public understanding of what nuclear power is and what options are available for it never evolved past the 1940's, and overcoming that fear is what matters.

You're free to make your proposal, but none of these words are really persuading me to prioritize nuclear power over other renewables.

 

[SupahEwok]

Here's the part where I'm going to lose all the Elon Musk fans, but I consider averting a climate apocalypse on this planet to be a higher priority than finding another planet to make the same mistakes on. I love space exploration too, but let's be real. Our problems right now are primarily of the terrestrial variety.

Extraterrestrial resource harvesting (i.e. asteroid mining) is gonna be a massive expansion. And it has impact on our own world. Some minerals are more abundant in asteroids than on our world, and once the process gets worked out, will be cheaper to mine. Not to mention that shifting mineral exploration offworld will reduce the need for environmentally damaging mining or the carbon released from the infrastructure exploiting it.

I agree that extraterrestrial colonization is a vanity project, but there's plenty of scientific exploration to be had in space that can make a difference in addressing our problems here on Earth.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Will it give me radiation poisoning...none of these words are really persuading me to prioritize nuclear power over other renewables.

Why nobody wants to talk to Buyetyen about nuclear power, everybody. Their mind's already made up and they refuse to entertain conversation about it in the first place.

That's not an "everybody else" problem, that's a "you" problem.

 

[Buyetyen]

Extraterrestrial resource harvesting (i.e. asteroid mining) is gonna be a massive expansion. And it has impact on our own world. Some minerals are more abundant in asteroids than on our world, and once the process gets worked out, will be cheaper to mine. Not to mention that shifting mineral exploration offworld will reduce the need for environmentally damaging mining or the carbon released from the infrastructure exploiting it.

I agree that extraterrestrial colonization is a vanity project, but there's plenty of scientific exploration to be had in space that can make a difference in addressing our problems here on Earth.

Extraterrestrial extraction also requires a degree of infrastructure we do not yet have, shitloads of manpower and technologies that as of writing aren't ready for primetime. Consider also the biological toll of space travel. So far, all we've done is try to brute force it, though that's obviously a dead end. As awesome as micro-grav resource extraction would be, it's still a long way off.

Why nobody wants to talk to Buyetyen about nuclear power, everybody. Their mind's already made up and they refuse to entertain conversation about it in the first place.

That's not an "everybody else" problem, that's a "you" problem.

Oh, I'm willing to entertain the conversation (I'm talking to Ewok about it, aren't I?). Just not with you, because you're arrogant, hostile and belittle people when they don't agree with you. I can get education on chemistry and physics without your verbal abuse, thanks.

 

[SupahEwok]

Extraterrestrial extraction also requires a degree of infrastructure we do not yet have, shitloads of manpower and technologies that as of writing aren't ready for primetime.

One may say similar of renewables. There is still a great deal of work and research to be done on creating efficient designs and the necessary battery designs to store the energy safely en masse.

In any case, we have the resources to do both space exploration and rejuvenate our energy infrastructure. We just need to stop dropping bombs on the Middle East and letting the rich stash their money away in tax havens.

Consider also the biological toll of space travel. So far, all we've done is try to brute force it, though that's obviously a dead end.

I don't think even Musk is advocating for manned space mineral exploitation. It is universally agreed that robotics and automation is the path there.

 

[Buyetyen]

One may say similar of renewables.

And indeed they have. Most technology first hits the market as "close enough" before it comes into its own. This was probably a contributing factor to paranoia over nuclear power. The first reactors were the best they could pull off at the time, but safety protocols have come a long way since then. I'm not writing off nuclear, though solar and wind right now are probably the easier sells to the public. Shit, we've got photovoltaic cells now that can gather energy by starlight. Not a shitload, but remember what I said before about, "close enough."

I honestly see green energy as much closer within reach than space extraction. Even automated, space is a difficult place to keep anything in tact in.

If we could get cold fusion power, this whole conversation would be moot, but while I'm at it I may as well wish for a pony.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Some minerals are more abundant in asteroids than on our world, and once the process gets worked out, will be cheaper to mine. Not to mention that shifting mineral exploration offworld will reduce the need for environmentally damaging mining or the carbon released from the infrastructure exploiting it.

Emphasis on "once the process gets worked out". Not saying impossible, but not going to happen in the foreseeable future, we've got much more pressing concerns at the moment.

 

[SupahEwok]

Emphasis on "once the process gets worked out". Not saying impossible, but not going to happen in the foreseeable future, we've got much more pressing concerns at the moment.

20-30 years is the foreseeable future. This isn't some Star Trek technomagic stuff, we actually are that close.

And, again,

In any case, we have the resources to do both space exploration and rejuvenate our energy infrastructure. We just need to stop dropping bombs on the Middle East and letting the rich stash their money away in tax havens.

 

[Buyetyen]

20-30 years is the foreseeable future. This isn't some Star Trek technomagic stuff, we actually are that close.

Green energy is a lot closer.

 

[SupahEwok]

Green energy is a lot closer.

Firstly, forms of green energy are already here, but research into efficacy, miniaturization, portability, constructability, and more remain ongoing, particularly for wind, which makes it far from a solved engineering problem with simple copy+paste applications. And, look, I think it's reasonable for me to start getting a teensy bit frustrated when I gotta repeat myself for a third time.

In any case, we have the resources to do both space exploration and rejuvenate our energy infrastructure. We just need to stop dropping bombs on the Middle East and letting the rich stash their money away in tax havens.

 

[Buyetyen]

Firstly, forms of green energy are already here, but research into efficacy, miniaturization, portability, constructability, and more remain ongoing, particularly for wind, which makes it far from a solved engineering problem with simple copy+paste applications. And, look, I think it's reasonable for me to start getting a teensy bit frustrated when I gotta repeat myself for a third time.

I hear what you're saying. I still think one is closer to reality than the other.

Let's also not forget that part of the green movement is also energy efficiency. Right now there is a skyscraper in Pittsburgh that is so energy efficient it only requires as much electricity per month as two local households. That's a pretty big deal.

 

[Eacaraxe]

20-30 years is the foreseeable future. This isn't some Star Trek technomagic stuff, we actually are that close.

Strictly speaking it's not "hard", in the sense of exactly how it might be accomplished is a known factor and has been for fifty-odd years. The problem is, frankly, the laws of physics aren't exactly on our side.

Just not with you, because you're arrogant, hostile and belittle people when they don't agree with you. I can get education on chemistry and physics without your verbal abuse, thanks.

Look in the mirror. You're just pissed there are people on the forums who are standing up for themselves and calling out the horrendous amounts of hypocrisy, doublethink, and apologia going on right now, because people have deluded themselves into thinking they can act as repugnant and amoral as they like so long as they're not bad orange man, and treat rote utterance of "orange man bad" as some twisted neoliberal plenary indulgence.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Strictly speaking it's not "hard", in the sense of exactly how it might be accomplished is a known factor and has been for fifty-odd years. The problem is, frankly, the laws of physics aren't exactly on our side.

Well we might be closer except Obama killed our rocket programs so we could outsource everything to Russia and Elon Musk.

Look in the mirror. You're just pissed there are people on the forums who are standing up for themselves and calling out the horrendous amounts of hypocrisy, doublethink, and apologia going on right now, because people have deluded themselves into thinking they can act as repugnant and amoral as they like so long as they're not bad orange man, and treat rote utterance of "orange man bad" as some twisted neoliberal plenary indulgence.

I wish there was a double like button for this.

 

[Buyetyen]

Look in the mirror. You're just pissed there are people on the forums who are standing up for themselves and calling out the horrendous amounts of hypocrisy, doublethink, and apologia going on right now, because people have deluded themselves into thinking they can act as repugnant and amoral as they like so long as they're not bad orange man, and treat rote utterance of "orange man bad" as some twisted neoliberal plenary indulgence.

No, you're just a jerk. You're trying to pick fights. And frankly your self-righteous antagonism toward anybody who commits the grievous sin of not telling you what you want them to say is getting really fucking old.

 

[lil devils x]

Well we might be closer except Obama killed our rocket programs so we could outsource everything to Russia and Elon Musk.



I wish there was a double like button for this.

Trump wants to privatize all of it regardless so what does it matter? Oh and have them do it on our national monuments he sold off as well.

 

[Gergar12]

Literally all the arguments for Biden are against Trump because you guys can't defend your awful candidates without resorting to lesser evil arguments.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Well we might be closer except Obama killed our rocket programs so we could outsource everything to Russia and Elon Musk.

Well, that's legitimately not just on Obama's head, that was a joint effort between Obama and Bush. Clinton was the one that fucked NASA. NASA's budget was (inflation-adjusted) $24.5bn in '92, hitting a funding nadir in 2000 at $20bn. George H.W. Bush was the one who brought NASA funding back up to Apollo program levels and wanted US space exploration back on track, and he was the last president we had that could realistically be called a friend to the agency.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Well, that's legitimately not just on Obama's head, that was a joint effort between Obama and Bush. Clinton was the one that fucked NASA. NASA's budget was (inflation-adjusted) $24.5bn in '92, hitting a funding nadir in 2000 at $20bn. George H.W. Bush was the one who brought NASA funding back up to Apollo program levels and wanted US space exploration back on track, and he was the last president we had that could realistically be called a friend to the agency.

To an extent yes, though Bush Jr did fund them better than Obama ever did. A friend? Certainly not, but content to let them toil away in the back instead of axing them in the name of austerity.

 

[Eacaraxe]

To an extent yes, though Bush Jr did fund them better than Obama ever did. A friend? Certainly not, but content to let them toil away in the back instead of axing them in the name of austerity.

Better, but not remotely enough for what he expected of NASA. Constellation was a nice framework, but it was too many spinning plates for a program that was too ambitious, not focused enough, under-budgeted and over-promised. Then you got Obama, who decided to take NASA back to square one for deficit hawk good boy points and unleash a pork tornado on the damn agency that was an even bigger clusterfuck than Constellation ever would have been for less return on investment. Don't forget, the nickname for it was "Senate Launch System" for a reason.

But really, what it boils down to is whose name goes on a plaque that ends up in some godforsaken corner of the planet as "the President who picked up where Kennedy left off" or somesuch bullshit, as if the whole-ass reason we put people on the Moon to begin with wasn't to make the world's most expensive point about how accurate our nukes are. And the US's lingering reluctance to just admit we're not building better than the Saturn V, and the smart, cheap play is just to reverse engineer that big bastard, take it back to the drawing board for a modernization pass, and build new, cheaper, better Saturn rockets.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Better, but not remotely enough for what he expected of NASA. Constellation was a nice framework, but it was too many spinning plates for a program that was too ambitious, not focused enough, under-budgeted and over-promised. Then you got Obama, who decided to take NASA back to square one for deficit hawk good boy points and unleash a pork tornado on the damn agency that was an even bigger clusterfuck than Constellation ever would have been for less return on investment. Don't forget, the nickname for it was "Senate Launch System" for a reason.

But really, what it boils down to is whose name goes on a plaque that ends up in some godforsaken corner of the planet as "the President who picked up where Kennedy left off" or somesuch bullshit, as if the whole-ass reason we put people on the Moon to begin with wasn't to make the world's most expensive point about how accurate our nukes are. And the US's lingering reluctance to just admit we're not building better than the Saturn V, and the smart, cheap play is just to reverse engineer that big bastard, take it back to the drawing board for a modernization pass, and build new, cheaper, better Saturn rockets.

Theoretically that was the point of the Constellation project. Giving up on reusability having learned our lesson with the Shuttle, we were just going to make a Saturn style big-fuck-off rocket again for heavy lifting then some small cheap ones when you don't have to put space station pieces. The Ares V straight recycled some bits of the Saturn V rocket.

The big lesson NASA had learned (and the DoD still hasn't judging from their stupid fighter jet) is that when you're dropping this kind of money just make specialized tools for the jobs you need, consolidating into a jack of all trades project is a bad idea.