Democrats retreat on fossil fuel and clean energy subsidies a day into DNC

Silvanus

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There were what, six major Progressive things the Biden/Bernie Task Force thing agreed on?

So here's Number 2 thing they backtracked on. Which of the four remaining things will they backtrack on tomorrow? If you pick the four in the correct order, you win a prize!
What's number 1? If you're talking about healthcare based on that other thread, I'd remind you that's based solely on 2 or 3 aides anonymously speculating.
 

tippy2k2

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What's number 1? If you're talking about healthcare based on that other thread, I'd remind you that's based solely on 2 or 3 aides anonymously speculating.
I mean, I suppose you are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

But I'm not going to hold my breath on it at this point since they're already walking back officially on the energy aspect already. Hell, with The DNC, even if they don't officially walk back on the healthcare part, they'll just find a way to negotiate down from it anyway because that's what The DNC does. They ask for a inch when we need a mile and then get negotiated down to a 1/4 of an inch...
 

Silvanus

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I mean, I suppose you are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

But I'm not going to hold my breath on it at this point since they're already walking back officially on the energy aspect already. Hell, with The DNC, even if they don't officially walk back on the healthcare part, they'll just find a way to negotiate down from it anyway because that's what The DNC does. They ask for a inch when we need a mile and then get negotiated down to a 1/4 of an inch...
Right, okay, it's perfectly sensible not to hold your breath. But I feel like at present, people are willing to take the smallest or most meaningless sign and interpret it as betrayal.

That's not the case here, of course-- it's bollocks that the fossil fuel subsidy stuff was removed, and it's criminal that they're continuing.

I am at least glad to see the Draft platform does still include expansion of public investment in clean energy, and a commitment to carbon neutrality and all that. It's actually more expansive in all than the 2016 one.
 

Silvanus

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Well, yes. Reflexive distrust is a safe bet when it comes to the Democratic establishment.
Sure, but we should wait for something with more substance before declaring a betrayal. Most people skimming forum titles & topics won't dig into it to find out just how little these conclusions are based on.

This applies to the healthcare thing more than the fossil fuel thing, though I'd still say it would make sense to wait until we're not reading a draft.
 

Gergar12

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That seems very specific, is that an attitude you're seeing a lot of? Because I'm not.

Mostly I'm seeing "We have a national health system, and the fact that the US doesn't means we are inherently superior to them....lets all tut about their problems instead of looking at our own".
Twitter and a high ranking member of Sweden's Social Democratic Party supported Mayor Pete in the democratic primaries.
 

Eacaraxe

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Also NATO is a vital institution at keeping the Russian threat at bay.
lol, which Russian threat, the one of them cutting off LNG exports to the EU? Don't know if you've noticed but Germany and France seems to have already decided on the EU's behalf in which hemisphere their national interests lie. Merkel bent the knee to Putin so hard she cracked the pavement eleven years ago when that specter raised its head the first time.
 

Gergar12

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Agema

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lol, which Russian threat, the one of them cutting off LNG exports to the EU? Don't know if you've noticed but Germany and France seems to have already decided on the EU's behalf in which hemisphere their national interests lie. Merkel bent the knee to Putin so hard she cracked the pavement eleven years ago when that specter raised its head the first time.
A fair bit of the blame for that lies with the USA, though. The minute the Berlin Wall fell, the USA was looking to the Pacific and China for its shiny new future. Europeans knew in the 1990s that as far as the USA was concerned they were old hat, and so it has been that they have drifted further and further apart. Trump has made this reality plain. He's questioned NATO, treated European leaders and countries with overt contempt, torn up multilaterial agreements on trade and foreign policy, and even voiced trying to undo measures the EU and USA agreed on Russia.

So you reap what you sow. The EU will deal with Russia because its proximity means the EU has to deal with it in ways the USA doesn't, and the USA is too unreliable an ally to make its word carry that much weight. As a European, I'd rather have half a Merkel than a hundred Clintons, Bushes, Obamas and Trumps when it came to Russia.
 
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Eacaraxe

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If you had paid attention, you'd also have noted Merkel's and EU's shift in rhetoric towards Russia in general and Putin in particular these last five years.
The EU will deal with Russia because its proximity means the EU has to deal with it in ways the USA doesn't, and the USA is too unreliable an ally to make its word carry that much weight.





Truly, the Eisenhower of our times. Germany and the EU is so committed to fighting the Russian threat they're willing to...become Russia's biggest energy trading partner, and cut all those pesky countries in which Russia has been "interfering" for a decade out of the loop to do it. Because as can clearly be seen from the US's not-at-all complex and dubious relationship with Saudi Arabia, that gives the energy-exporting country no leverage in trade negotiations, nor has any possibility of unintended consequence.

Because of course, this somehow must be Trump's fault despite having started and continued for the eight years we don't talk about between Bush and Trump.
 

Silvanus

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This applies to the healthcare thing more than the fossil fuel thing, though I'd still say it would make sense to wait until we're not reading a draft.
Well, I said we should wait for the main release, and now we have it and they haven't rectified this.

As you were, then.
 

Eacaraxe

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...while failing to mention the heavy trading sanctions in other areas and the banking embargo that the EU has put on Russia...
Which had absolutely nothing to do with post-PIIGS crisis Eurozone market share protection and maintenance of German financial hegemony, I'm certain. What an amazing and convenient coincidence, that "sort of like how trade embargos work" so well matches Germany's economic and geopolitical interest.

Nord Stream has been a long time project, started in the 90's...
By that you mean "spent thirteen years in regulatory and diplomatic hell, before being completed just in time for Germany to shoot itself in the dick and manufacture a 20% energy deficit over the course of a decade".

...and whether you like it or not Germany has to get its energy from somewhere.
Ain't my problem Germany's more afraid of Godzilla than Putin, and decided to shit its pants over poorly-designed, poorly-regulated, nuclear power plants at the end of their operational lifespans in a tsunami zone on the other side of the planet. When the least-remote comparison between the two is half the country sits on top of a mantle plume that farts every 10,000 or so years. And frankly, if that fucker pops off bad enough to endanger the operation of nuclear power plants, those nuke plants are gonna be the least of Germany's problems.

Because that's sort of like how geology works.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
We need a new law like Godwin's Law, except for Trump. Any of you ever visit r/politics? Seems like Trump is the only thing they'll ever talk about there.
Well, he is currently the president and hes a fucken bad one at that who never shuts up. The right already had a kitschy term for it 'trump derangement syndrome.' It's a stupid thing to even have a concept for considering he is the fucken president who tweets stupid shit every minute.
 

09philj

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We have the technology and the means to transfer to a much more sustainable way of living but that will involve some inconvenience and won't make as many people disgustingly wealthy so there's not much chance of a US presidential candidate supporting it.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
We have the technology and the means to transfer to a much more sustainable way of living but that will involve some inconvenience and won't make as many people disgustingly wealthy so there's not much chance of a US presidential candidate supporting it.
Do you mean universal basic income? Cause it is part of the conversation now, so give it a bit longer and it will probably be a serious political discussion.