Whistleblowing Nurse: ICE may be doing an ethnic cleansing via sterilization

gorfias

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Yeah, no, they infringe on no human right of mine entering nor those entering legally.

Ahead of? When did this become a competition here? "Better remove their kids or we're disregarding people coming here legally!" Like what?
No. When someone enters your nation illegally, they impact a very central right of yours: the right to self determination. Historically we control our borders as we have a standing social contract with those within the border. No such contract exists with those entering your nation illegally. If anything, they appear to have contempt for you, as if they own you. They do not.
EDIT: Is it a "race"? Within our borders, we set the number we believe our nation can handle: socially, it's government social programs, tax and spending. When someone enters illegally, I would imagine it means someone trying to enter legally will have to wait that much longer if they're ever allowed to enter at all.
 

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No. When someone enters your nation illegally, they impact a very central right of yours: the right to self determination. Historically we control our borders as we have a standing social contract with those within the border. No such contract exists with those entering your nation illegally. If anything, they appear to have contempt for you, as if they own you. They do not.
EDIT: Is it a "race"? Within our borders, we set the number we believe our nation can handle: socially, it's government social programs, tax and spending. When someone enters illegally, I would imagine it means someone trying to enter legally will have to wait that much longer if they're ever allowed to enter at all.
They are not entering illegally under US asylum laws as determined by US congress. US officials are illegally breaking US law in their treatment of legal asylum seekers. Those in these detention facilities are not in violation of any imaginary " number" set as to an allowance into the US as you claim. Your claims are verifiably false.

We have actual law on those who exist within our borders, including asylum seekers. US officials violating that law does not in any way " justify" their mistreatment of those who are legally seeking asylum in the US.

The US cannot illegally prevent asylum seekers from entering the US, and you cannot legally claim asylum from outside the US.
 

Specter Von Baren

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1) This is not a legal punishment for breaking the law.
2)Those carrying out these things are in violation of US law.
3) Trump is violating the law by defying court orders, should we then do this to him and anyone who follows his orders?
4) Only Congress can create and alter the laws according to the constitution, thus it cannot be altered by executive order.
5)Nowhere in our laws does it sanction the use of surgery as a form of punishment, thus anyone doing such is in violation of the law.
I already clarified that the conversation had moved on to general practices under the law and not this forced sterilization rumor.

Maybe you should read the history on forced sterilization. Forced sterilization has been deemed a violation of human rights as well as recognized as a form of genocide for good reason.
He said "The specter of genocide" as if referring to some previous incident of it that the us has done to the Mexican people, which, as far as I'm aware, the US has not done before.

Forced sterilization is literally a form of genocide. Everyone in this topic who tried to make an excuse for this shit has endorsed genocide.

Congratulations to @gorfias and good luck trying to claim that you're not a racist and a bigot after endorsing genocide.

Also reported for endorsing genocide.
??????? Look at my above post and actually read what I responded to with my comment.

Let me try and elaborate on what I saw was being said here. Buyetyen said, " The spectre of genocide still hangs over the topic. "

I interpreted that to mean they were saying there was a previous incident of US genocide about the Mexican people to which I was confused because, as far as I'm aware, the US has not done so. Yes, Lil, yes I know, you don't have to bring it up, I know, I am specifically speaking to the Mexican people and even more specifically their immigrants. I gravely disagree with using genocide so casually like this, about something we have EXTREMELY little knowledge of the facts of.

We do not yet know if forced sterilization has even occurred. We do not know how many, if any, of these were done for actual health issues or were done for some kind of horrible scheme for money or what have you. If it has occurred we do not yet know to what extent nor who initiated it.

Quite frankly, I don't see what would even be the point of sterilizing a few Mexican women when the entire purpose of ICE is to deport anyone that is illegal anyway. And me saying a "few" women is intentional because I do not see how one could hide something like this done on a national level to all illegal immigrants without it being incredibly obvious that it is happening given all the media attention that has been on ICE. So I'm going to wait and see what exactly is actually going on here but I will also continue to argue against baselessly going off half cocked.
 

Buyetyen

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Can we agree that those that break a law can expect to be punished (punishment defined as a justified cruelty). To avoid a justified cruelty, don't break the law?
Justified cruelty is an oxymoron and just goes to show that our justice system is less concerned with justice than with bloody retribution.
 
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Buyetyen

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No. When someone enters your nation illegally, they impact a very central right of yours: the right to self determination.
If your self-actualization is dependent on people you'll never meet obeying arbitrary laws, that would explain why you're so cranky.

EDIT: Is it a "race"? Within our borders, we set the number we believe our nation can handle: socially, it's government social programs, tax and spending. When someone enters illegally, I would imagine it means someone trying to enter legally will have to wait that much longer if they're ever allowed to enter at all.
This is also why we kill any infants born in violation of a our strict one-child policy. Can't have the set number of people being violated because 2 people were too selfish to become celibate in the name of freedom.

He said "The specter of genocide" as if referring to some previous incident of it that the us has done to the Mexican people, which, as far as I'm aware, the US has not done before.
We are however, as a nation, guilty of genocide. Trying to move the goalpost by saying it only counts if it's genocide against a specific group is not doing your argument any favors.


I interpreted that to mean they were saying there was a previous incident of US genocide on the Mexican people
Good for you, you're wrong.
 
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MrCalavera

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I am calling BS on systemic forced sterilization of those violating US immigration law. I don't think it is happening. I am reading of a few anecdotes. An individual may have violated US law and deserves criminal and civil sanctions if true.
I'm not really arguing about the systemic nature of these events. Not quoting you litteraly, but to illustrate my point:
"It didn't happen, and even if it did, they deserved it for breaking the law." I specifically have gripes with the underlined part of this sentiment.
We can wait and see, and discuss about how many of those events occured, could they be described as systemic etc. We can disagree later about the investigation outcomes.
But IF one argues for upholding the law, they must also argue for upholding the law by the institutions executing it.
And the insitution in question seemed to have problems with that.
Lack of oversight, straight path to tyranny.

Can we agree that those that break a law can expect to be punished (punishment defined as a justified cruelty). To avoid a justified cruelty, don't break the law?
No, if that punishment is forced sterilization, no. And also on that note, i can't agree with "justified cruelty" whatever that means.
We don't break heretics over the wheel, or send people to penal colonies because they stole a loaf of bread anymore.
 

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I already clarified that the conversation had moved on to general practices under the law and not this forced sterilization rumor.



He said "The specter of genocide" as if referring to some previous incident of it that the us has done to the Mexican people, which, as far as I'm aware, the US has not done before.



??????? Look at my above post and actually read what I responded to with my comment.

Let me try and elaborate on what I saw was being said here. Buyetyen said, " The spectre of genocide still hangs over the topic. "

I interpreted that to mean they were saying there was a previous incident of US genocide about the Mexican people to which I was confused because, as far as I'm aware, the US has not done so. Yes, Lil, yes I know, you don't have to bring it up, I know, I am specifically speaking to the Mexican people and even more specifically their immigrants. I gravely disagree with using genocide so casually like this, about something we have EXTREMELY little knowledge of the facts of.

We do not yet know if forced sterilization has even occurred. We do not know how many, if any, of these were done for actual health issues or were done for some kind of horrible scheme for money or what have you. If it has occurred we do not yet know to what extent nor who initiated it.

Quite frankly, I don't see what would even be the point of sterilizing a few Mexican women when the entire purpose of ICE is to deport anyone that is illegal anyway. And me saying a "few" women is intentional because I do not see how one could hide something like this done on a national level to all illegal immigrants without it being incredibly obvious that it is happening given all the media attention that has been on ICE. So I'm going to wait and see what exactly is actually going on here but I will also continue to argue against baselessly going off half cocked.
Yes, the US has done. Where do you think the Nazi's got the gas chamber idea from?
Yea reading that should turn your stomach that they treated people this way, if it doesn't, you may want to reevaluate your humanity.
 

Specter Von Baren

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We are however, as a nation, guilty of genocide. Trying to move the goalpost by saying it only counts if it's genocide against a specific group is not doing your argument any favors.
What? WTF goalpost moving? What do you even think I'm saying here? What excuse? There isn't anything to even excuse yet! We know virtually nothing about what's happening here! How could I even begin to excuse something that has not been confirmed?! You think I would think it's GOOD, if my country is actually doing this? REALLY? I don't remember a single time I've endorsed some mass killing or brutal treatment of people so I don't know what you could possibly be basing your idea of me off of.

Good for you, you're wrong.
Good! Glad that's been cleared up then!
 

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What? WTF goalpost moving? What do you even think I'm saying here? What excuse? There isn't anything to even excuse yet! We know virtually nothing about what's happening here! How could I even begin to excuse something that has not been confirmed?! You think I would think it's GOOD, if my country is actually doing this? REALLY? I don't remember a single time I've endorsed some mass killing or brutal treatment of people so I don't know what you could possibly be basing your idea of me off of.



Good! Glad that's been cleared up then!
The US actually has a long history of forced sterilization and genocide to accept responsibility for, that is why even allowing it to happen to one more person should incite outrage every single time that it happens now.
 
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Secondhand Revenant

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No. When someone enters your nation illegally, they impact a very central right of yours: the right to self determination. Historically we control our borders as we have a standing social contract with those within the border. No such contract exists with those entering your nation illegally. If anything, they appear to have contempt for you, as if they own you. They do not.
EDIT: Is it a "race"? Within our borders, we set the number we believe our nation can handle: socially, it's government social programs, tax and spending. When someone enters illegally, I would imagine it means someone trying to enter legally will have to wait that much longer if they're ever allowed to enter at all.
Yeah, no, it does not.

Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order. Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties. For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”
.

Breaking the law does not infringe on our right to that.

You have contempt for them as if you don't consider them human. They don't show contempt, they aren't thinking of legal principles or whatnot when doing so. You are spouting utter insanity, the idea that they act as if they own us is... well I'll just say it's not unheard of for right wingers to spout that kind of dire shit but damn.

I don't care for your imagination with regards to the edit. It's a rather wild one. I care if you have some evidence of that. I highly doubt they check the exact numbers then balance it.
 

gorfias

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They are not entering illegally under US asylum laws as determined by US congress. US officials are illegally breaking US law i'n their treatment of legal asylum seekers. Those in these detention facilities are not in violation of any imaginary " number" set as to an allowance into the US as you claim. Your claims are verifiably false.

We have actual law on those who exist within our borders, including asylum seekers. US officials violating that law does not in any way " justify" their mistreatment of those who are legally seeking asylum in the US.

The US cannot illegally prevent asylum seekers from entering the US, and you cannot legally claim asylum from outside the US.
Legal asylum seekers are supposed to enter through certain ports of entry. If not, they are breaking the law but may have justification for doing so. I wonder what % are found to be true asylum seekers? Are those not sent permanently out of the USA?
I'm not really arguing about the systemic nature of these events. Not quoting you litteraly, but to illustrate my point:
"It didn't happen, and even if it did, they deserved it for breaking the law." I specifically have gripes with the underlined part of this sentiment.
We can wait and see, and discuss about how many of those events occured, could they be described as systemic etc. We can disagree later about the investigation outcomes.
But IF one argues for upholding the law, they must also argue for upholding the law by the institutions executing it.
And the insitution in question seemed to have problems with that.
Lack of oversight, straight path to tyranny.


No, if that punishment is forced sterilization, no. And also on that note, i can't agree with "justified cruelty" whatever that means.
We don't break heretics over the wheel, or send people to penal colonies because they stole a loaf of bread anymore.
Justified cruelty was a definition I'd read regardng the word punishment. I just did a search on the term and it can be very vague. Example To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.
Is punishment ever appropriate for someone that breaks the law? I think so.
I write of "systemic" as Im' trying to determine if there is problem described in this thread with the system, which should result in official action against the system, or an individual, requiring specific sanctions against that person. Even the individuals in question may have justifications. I don't know yet.
Yeah, no, it does not.


.

Breaking the law does not infringe on our right to that.

You have contempt for them as if you don't consider them human. They don't show contempt, they aren't thinking of legal principles or whatnot when doing so. You are spouting utter insanity, the idea that they act as if they own us is... well I'll just say it's not unheard of for right wingers to spout that kind of dire shit but damn.

I don't care for your imagination with regards to the edit. It's a rather wild one. I care if you have some evidence of that. I highly doubt they check the exact numbers then balance it.
I do not know how we can have self determination if someone not part of a social contract with us can show contempt for me and my society, violate its laws with impunity and impose themselves upon me and mine as they please. If you think you can do so, good luck with that.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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What? This?

U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, tired of the fighting and being more concerned with events unfolding in Europe and World War I, withdrew American forces from Mexico. Mexican revolutionary Pancho Villa refused to give up the fight and continued to execute border skirmishes.[4] Between 1915 and 1917, typhus (which was sometimes reported as typhoid fever) spread from Mexico City to the provinces from Veracruz to Jalisco.[5] In September 1916, Carranza called for a constitutional convention to end the conflict and bring peace to Mexico.[6] The convention ended simultaneously with the end of the riots, on January 31, 1917,[7] and subsequently the new constitution was signed on February 5.[8]


During the same period, Thomas Calloway Lea Jr. was elected as the mayor of El Paso, Texas. Lea sent telegrams to U.S. Senators in Washington demanding a quarantine be put in place to stem the tide of "dirty lousey destitute Mexicans" who would spread typhus into El Paso.[9] The Public Health Service Officer for El Paso, Dr. B. J. Lloyd, admitted there was little danger and opposed a quarantine, but suggested opening de-lousing plants.[3] U.S. officials quickly adopted a policy of sanitizing Mexican immigrants at a disinfecting station in El Paso. The policy initially applied to all Mexicans entering the United States at El Paso,[10] but soon spread to the Laredo–Nuevo Laredo crossing, and eventually along the entire U.S. Mexico border.[11]
Continued in next post...
 

Specter Von Baren

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Continuation.

Men were separated from women and children into separate buildings, where they were stripped of all clothing and valuables. Most clothing and valuables were steamed. Other items which might be damaged by steam (like shoes, hats, or belts) were exposed to cyanogen gas. Attendants examined the nude people for lice.[10] The officers conducting the strip searches were rumored to have photographed the nude women and shared the photos to others at bars.[12] When lice were found on a man, the man's hair was clipped close to his head and the clippings were burned. For a woman, the hair was doused in a mixture of vinegar and kerosene, wrapped in a towel, and left on the hair for at least 30 minutes. If lice were found on re-inspection, the process was repeated. Once attendants declared the lice test had been "passed", the naked people were gathered in a bathing area and sprayed with a liquid soap made of soap chips and kerosene oil.[10] After collecting their sanitized clothing and dressing, migrants were evaluated by a foreman, vaccinated and given a certificate that they had completed the procedure. From the disinfecting area, migrants then entered the Immigration and Naturalization Service building for processing.

By 1914, Venustiano Carranza had been sworn into office as Mexico's head of state ending the main fighting of the Mexican Revolution. Around 7:30 a.m.[14] on January 28, 1917, the riot began when inspectors attempted to remove Mexican women from their trolley, which they were riding to work. Ordered to disembark and submit to the disinfection process, 17-year-old Carmelita Torres refused, having heard reports that nude women were being photographed while in the baths.[15][3] Reports had also circulated that bathers might be set on fire, as had happened the previous year when gasoline baths at the El Paso City Jail had resulted in the death of 28 inmates when a cigarette ignited bathers.[16] She requested permission to enter without submitting to bathing and was refused. She then demanded a refund of her fare and upon refusal of a refund convinced the other women on her cable car to protest. The women began shouting and hurling stones at health and immigration officials, sentries and civilians, who had gathered to watch the disturbance. The majority of the early protesters were young, domestic workers employed in homes in El Paso but as the crowd grew to several thousand a mixture of people became involved. Four trolleys which had made early morning runs to collect workers on the Juárez side were seized and did not return to the El Paso side until mid-afternoon.[15]


Around 10 o'clock, General Andrés G. García drove to the center of the bridge to try to quiet the mob and was only partially successful, as the mob tried to prevent his car from leaving the Mexican side. By the afternoon, when it was clear that those who had entered the baths were not being harmed, the crowds were finally dispersed by mounted soldiers on each side of the border.[15] One cable car motorman and a mail coach driver were reported to have been beaten by rioters and several media movie makers were attacked.[17] Despite rumors that someone had been shot, Mexican authorities denied the event and reported that no serious injuries resulted.[18]


On the 29th rioting continued, but this time, the majority of rioters were men. Newspapers reported that the men were taking advantage of the bath disturbance to protest the Carranza regime and voice support for his rival Pancho Villa. Juárez Police Chief Maximo Torres ordered all rioters arrested and the Mexican cavalry dispersed the rioters from the bridge.[19] Business owners and households who were without laborers consulted with the Chamber of Commerce to resolve the issues promptly as most workers refused to come to work. Officials clarified that those who were not infected could be passed without having to bathe and that certificates were valid for a week.[20]


By January 30, precautionary measures taken by authorities on both sides of the border had quelled the rioting.[21] Two men and one woman were arrested at the American side of the bridge for assaulting a customs officer and an infantryman, but no further violence was reported.[22] Policemen from Juárez monitored the southern end of the bridge crossing, a Mexican health inspector Andrés García was present to maintain respectful treatment at the disinfection plant, and street car service between the two cities was suspended.[21] Notices had been posted in Juárez to advise that the inspectors in El Paso would accept health certificates issued by Mexican health inspectors.[23]

Or did you just read the top paragraph? Because the actual bulk of the page doesn't indicate that this was some kind of policy of genocide.
 

lil devils x

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You don't read your own links, do you?
I did, did you? The US was the first to use the gas on people. US companies supplied the Nazis with the chemicals they were using on people.
 

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Continuation.




Or did you just read the top paragraph? Because the actual bulk of the page doesn't indicate that this was some kind of policy of genocide.
You ARE understanding that using these chemicals on humans at all causes all sorts of medical issues, including death right? The government already knew that when they approved this, and didn't care. Of COURSE that is genocide. They have ALWAYS attempted to " justify" their actions under the guise of " protection", so did the Nazis in their treatment of jews. That doesn't suddenly make it okay in ANY way. I am not aware of any genocide in history that didn't attempt to excuse it or justify it in their own minds as somehow being reasonable or necessary when it was anything but.

They knew what they were doing to these people and simply didn't care that they were. They also would not use these chemicals on their own families for good reason.
 

Houseman

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You ARE understanding that using these chemicals on humans at all causes all sorts of medical issues, including death right? The government already knew that when they approved this, and didn't care. Of COURSE that is genocide.
Okay, how many people died from a direct result of these baths?
Not counting those who were set on fire after a cigarette ignited the flammable gas, of course.

You say that these baths were made and used to commit genocide. So how many died as a result? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
 

Secondhand Revenant

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I do not know how we can have self determination if someone not part of a social contract with us can show contempt for me and my society, violate its laws with impunity and impose themselves upon me and mine as they please. If you think you can do so, good luck with that.
Your lack of imagination is not an argument.

Which aspects of self-determination are denied? We are still able to determine our government etc.

You use vague language like 'impose'. You use vague accusations like 'contempt'. You're speaking rubbish here.
 
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lil devils x

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Okay, how many people died from a direct result of these baths?
Not counting those who were set on fire after a cigarette ignited the flammable gas, of course.

You say that these baths were to commit genocide. So how many died as a result? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
They didn't keep records of the deaths of their victims, but you already knew that right? They also didn't keep a record of the slaves they killed, or the people they murdered on black wall street, but that doesn't mean they didn't die as a result. The people who were treated with these chemicals were not somehow immune to their effects. We have ample documentation of what happens to people exposed to these things, we do not need an exact count to understand the impact it had on these individuals as well. They are not some superhumans immune to the affects of these extremely well documented chemicals.

The expected number of people to have their health impacted by the use of these chemicals are the number of people they actually did this to. These chemicals were used to kill people due to their effectiveness.
 

Houseman

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They didn't keep records of the deaths of their victims
So you have no evidence to say that this was a genocide. Okay then. Until you can produce evidence, I'm not going to believe you.

And no, being vague with "spooky chemicals cause diseases, wOoOoOoO" is not evidence either. You can kill people with water, too.
Zyklon was used on their clothes to kill lice.