Sounds like trump is planning on nominating someone named Amy Coney Barrett to the supreme court.

Silvanus

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The ones who said it was the wrong time for a public option were the biggest supporters for a public option among the Democrat party, with pressure from the WH (Obama-Biden) to drop it.
Meaning those people broke faith. Blame isn't shared by people who didn't.

That's it, I'm done. Never talk to me about this subject ever again. If you aren't going to take this seriously then there's really just no point. Stay in your la-la land view of reality. If you can look at all of lies and hypocrisy of the Democrats and not see how they shape themselves to be as anti-progressive as possible, you're just blind. Willfully so. I can show you every instance of the Democrats sabotaging their own policies, sabotaging progressives, breaking their own rules, and so on, and you'll just say there's no issue with corruption.

I don't care about your opinion anymore, it doesn't line up with reality.
To be frank, I'm not convinced you've actually engaged with my opinion. You've offered several (perfectly valid and convincing) arguments that speak to the point that there's a strong element in the Democratic Party, including its leadership, that's corporatist and doesn't cater to its voterbase or their interests. That's the essence and the thrust of almost every point made so far.

Which is something we both agree on, but on which you seem bizarrely convinced that I'm arguing against.

Arguments like the one above-- that a bunch of Dems spoke in favour of the public option and then reneged; that they were under pressure from the WH-- speaks to that. It demonstrates it quite succinctly. It doesn't speak to what I've been laying out.

Edit: To be clear, I don't want this thread to come across as aggravation. I'm trying to be as genuinely clear as possible (several beers in).
 

crimson5pheonix

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Meaning those people broke faith. Blame isn't shared by people who didn't.



To be frank, I'm not convinced you've actually engaged with my opinion. You've offered several (perfectly valid and convincing) arguments that speak to the point that there's a strong element in the Democratic Party, including its leadership, that's corporatist and doesn't cater to its voterbase or their interests. That's the essence and the thrust of almost every point made so far.

Which is something we both agree on, but on which you seem bizarrely convinced that I'm arguing against.

Arguments like the one above-- that a bunch of Dems spoke in favour of the public option and then reneged; that they were under pressure from the WH-- speaks to that. It demonstrates it quite succinctly. It doesn't speak to what I've been laying out.
I didn't want to jump to that since I didn't want to jinx myself, but I had a feeling this is where we were going.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Go away. I don't care. If you agree there's a systemic problem in the Democrat party that makes them as a whole untrustworthy on any given topic that they themselves perpetuate, and the only solution is replacing them, then quite literally you have come up to argue with me about nothing. There is literally no point in you coming to me.
 

Seanchaidh

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Senate Democrats, so far as I know, are not doing any of these things. Anyway, this is (some of) what they could be doing:

Re: Safeguarding the Court

Democrats must act to delay action by Leader McConnell to fill Justice Ginsburg’s Supreme Court seat. Denying action before the election could markedly increase the probability that the results of the election would change the vote in the Senate and thereby allow for the seating of a more progressive Justice. Failing that, moving forward with confirmation during a lame duck session, if consent of the governed had been denied, would buttress the case for structural Court reform.

Moreover, much of the broad electorate will want to see Congressional Democrats fighting to protect the Court and their Constitutional rights. Mere capitulation to what Washington insiders see as the inevitable will be viewed by many as abandonment of the Democratic base and could undermine enthusiasm.

At least two contextual considerations make the current circumstance more favorable to the use of dilatory tactics than were the Gorsuch and Kavanaugh confirmations, both of which took place during the 115th Congress: 1) The electorate might vote to change control of the Senate and/or the White House in a matter of weeks and 2) Democrats control the House of Representatives, which can play a part in compelling certain action in the Senate.

Engaging in such dilatory tactics would also likely force McConnell to keep the entire Republican Conference in the vicinity of the Senate, in order to maintain a quorum and to win various votes. This might become increasingly untenable because up to a dozen sitting Republicans are defending their seats in close races and will want to return home to campaign — including to participate in debates and other events they will be loath to miss.

As a threshold matter, the Congressional Democrats must enter a war-room posture and convene a group of the people most knowledgeable of Senate (and House) procedure who can work together and be mutually generative of relevant tactical ideas.

Suggestions contained herein, even if all acted upon in good faith, might not be dispositive of the outcome of the confirmation process — but we have reason to believe that not all potential options have been thoroughly explored.

Actions Congressional Democrats should consider include the following — but what follows is far from exhaustive. We do not purport to have considered every possibility, and this document intentionally omits discussion of certain creative tactics that rely upon the element of surprise.

Exercising Rights To Delay Senate Action Generally

Speaking at Length
— In the absence of a unanimous consent agreement governing time to debate or cloture, a Senator who gets recognized to speak can speak at length.

Objecting to Routine Consent Agreements — Any Senator may object to routine unanimous consent agreements, such as those to adjourn, to recess, to approve the Journal, or to dispense with the Morning Hour. Forcing roll-call votes on routine motions to adjourn or recess would require Senators to come to the Capitol and also prevent the Senate from taking other action during the time that it would take for Senators to come to vote.

New Legislative Day — If the Senate adjourns without a unanimous consent agreement providing for the handling of routine business at the beginning of a new legislative day, a new legislative day starts with the morning hour, a 2-hour period with a number of required procedures. As part of the morning hour, any Senator could make a non-debatable motion to proceed to an item on the Senate calendar.

Objecting to Lifting Quorum Calls — Any Senator can object to unanimous consent to lifting a quorum call, forcing a recorded vote that would require Senators to come to the Capitol and also prevent the Senate from taking other action during the time it takes for Senators to come to vote.

Motions to Adjourn and Recess — Any Senator can move to adjourn, to adjourn to a day certain, or to take a recess. All of these motions take precedence over a motion to proceed to the consideration of a nomination. Senators could make a series of motions of this sort to force roll-call votes.

Layover Requirements — Senators can raise points of order if measures have not lain over sufficiently under Rule XIV or XVII.

Raising Points of Order — Any Senator who gets recognized by the Presiding Officer can raise a point of order making a procedural objection. Once the Presiding Officer rules, a Senator can appeal the ruling of the Chair, and Senators can demand a roll-call vote. One could imagine an extremely large number of procedural questions on which to vote.

Filing Cloture — If the Senate is not governed by a unanimous consent agreement or post cloture, a Senator who got recognized could move to proceed to a measure or series of measures and file cloture on the motion(s) to proceed. Two days later, the Senate would be required to vote on the cloture motion(s). The number of these motions is limited only by the number of items on the calendar.

Fast-Track Vehicles — Several fast-track statutes, including the Congressional Budget Act, the Congressional Review Act, the War Powers Act, and the Arms Export Control Act, give any Senator the right to move to proceed to a vehicle and force a roll-call vote and sometimes a period of debate. For example, any Senator could submit a concurrent resolution on the budget, and by precedent, if action has not yet been taken on a budget resolution for the coming fiscal year, then the resolution would be immediately placed on the calendar. Once on the calendar, any Senator could move to proceed to the resolution, forcing a roll-call vote on the motion to proceed. Meanwhile, resolutions of disapproval under the CRA can be petitioned out of committee with 30 signatures after 20 calendar days. Such measures could be filed en masse now.

Utilizing Rule XIV — Any Senator can have any legislative measure placed on the calendar in two legislative days under Rule XIV. Leader Schumer could ask every Democratic Senator to introduce bills on their favorite subjects en masse and seek to put them on the calendar via rule XIV. Once they were on the calendar two legislative days later, if Schumer could get the floor, he could move to proceed to each in turn, file cloture, withdraw his motion to proceed, move to another, file cloture, withdraw his motion to proceed, and continue to repeat, stacking up an almost endless series of votes on motions to invoke cloture on motions to proceed to Democratic priorities, until the Majority Leader shut the Senate down.

To prevent this strategy, the Majority Leader would have to keep the Senate locked down post cloture at all times and prevent the Democratic Leader from getting recognition, or continue to recess the Senate to prevent there ever being another legislative day. If the Majority Leader did the latter, the Democratic leader could still file serial motions to proceed to bills already on the calendar, so long as he could gain recognition to make the motions. This strategy requires there being an opportunity for motions to be made.

House Measures Requiring Senate Action

Impeachment
— If the House of Representatives exercised its impeachment power, then the rules of the Senate require the Senate to immediately address that matter.

Amendments Between Houses — If the House of Representatives passed amendments to Senate-passed bills now pending in the House and sent those over to the Senate, those messages between Houses would be privileged in the Senate. Thus, in the absence of cloture or a unanimous consent agreement governing the Senate floor, a Senator could ask that such a message be laid before the Senate and make motions in connection with the message that would require immediate roll-call votes or offer a motion to concur (or concur with an amendment) and file cloture, once again forcing a roll-call vote after two days.

Short-Term Funding — The House of Representatives could insist on very short-term funding measures until the Leadership of both Houses came to agreement on proceedings for the balance of the year. Short-term funding measures would then require more-frequent roll-call votes.

War Powers Resolutions — Generally, within a certain number of days, the Senate has to take up WPRs or any Senator can move to proceed.

There are likely additional measures available that, if passed by the House, would demand action in the Senate.

Exercising Rights in the Judiciary Committee

Time for Review and Hearing
— The Judiciary Committee customarily takes time to review the record of Supreme Court nominees. Democrats should demand that the Committee take this time before a hearing commences.

Objecting to Committees Meeting — Any Senator can object to unanimous consent for committees to meet more than two hours after the Senate convenes on a day in which the Senate is in session.

Full Hearings — Democratic Members of the Judiciary Committee could try to continue the proceedings of any hearing that the Chairman calls.

Hold Over Committee Action — Under Judiciary Committee rule I, paragraph 3, “At the request of any member . . . a . . . nomination on the agenda of the Committee may be held over until the next meeting of the Committee or for one week, whichever occurs later.” A Democratic Senator on the Judiciary Committee should demand that the nomination be held over for the week.

Denying a Quorum — Republicans need to produce the presence of a quorum of Judiciary Committee Senators to report out the nomination. Democrats might choose not to help produce the necessary Senators.
 

Thaluikhain

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If you can look at all of lies and hypocrisy of the Democrats and not see how they shape themselves to be as anti-progressive as possible,
Anti-progressive as possible? Bad, certainly. Bad enough to make it morally wrong to vote for them, well, I disagree but can respect that position. But as anti-progressive as possible? Superlatively bad?

There is another large party in the US that's noticeably even worse, so I find that hard to believe.
 

Silvanus

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You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Go away. I don't care. If you agree there's a systemic problem in the Democrat party that makes them as a whole untrustworthy on any given topic that they themselves perpetuate, and the only solution is replacing them, then quite literally you have come up to argue with me about nothing. There is literally no point in you coming to me.
I don't agree with that-- the key distinction being the term "as a whole". It is a party encompassing those that broke faith (and represent a not-insignificant number, including among the leadership), as well as those that didn't break faith (representing the majority of Democratic congressmen, but demonstrably not enough for it to pass Congress, even under Obama). My contention is that the actions of the former do not stain those who have not politically acted in such a shitty way.

You can say there's "literally no point in coming back", as you have the last two posts, but if that statement follows a straightforward misunderstanding of what my position actually is, then I kind of feel obligated to correct the record. And if you believe that regardless, the conversation shouldn't continue, feel free not to respond.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Snip to have more space
Yup, no point. That is the most pointless of quibbles. You can say there are good Democrat congressman (we call those progressives by the way), but you most definitely overestimate their numbers. Precisely because the leadership is compromised and have a huge hand in deciding who gets to be in the party. That line about progressives is also the only thing standing between them and being a metaphor for cops. "Some bad apples (and a whole system of support and creation for those bad apples)".

Anti-progressive as possible? Bad, certainly. Bad enough to make it morally wrong to vote for them, well, I disagree but can respect that position. But as anti-progressive as possible? Superlatively bad?

There is another large party in the US that's noticeably even worse, so I find that hard to believe.
Well I see them sabotage progressive policies and break their own rules to sabotage progressive candidates every time I look. Like the time the Democrat party of Massachusetts colluded with student Democrats of all things to launch a homophobic attack against a progressive candidate in the primary.



On August 12, The Intercept began publishing the first of four exposés that reported, in order: One of the students who orchestrated the scheme was motivated by a desire to launch his political career through Neal; that the students had sought to entrap Morse and, having failed, went ahead anyway with vague allegations; that the state party had offered legal advice and media training in preparation for the letter being leaked; and finally, that the state party, once the scheme was exposed, publicly ordered an investigation into the students’ conduct while at the same time privately urging the students to delete messages that showed collusion with the state party.
 

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EDIT: I responded, but deleted it. This conversation's run its course.
 
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lil devils x

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The Senate is required to hold inquiries in the case of impeachments sent from the House. They already have precious little time.

There still may be hope to delay it just a little bit...
If too many GOP senators become ill from the super spreader, it could buy a little more time.
 
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Revnak

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If the Dems don’t pull out every trick in the book after this I blame them entirely for her confirmation.
 

Avnger

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If the Dems don’t pull out every trick in the book after this I blame them entirely for her confirmation.
The sheer absurdity of seeing the group of people who would rather Republicans win elections than moderate Democrats getting angry because Republicans did win the elections and that has consequences for us all is off the damn charts.
 

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The sheer absurdity of seeing the group of people who would rather Republicans win elections than moderate Democrats getting angry because Republicans did win the elections and that has consequences for us all is off the damn charts.
Elections only seem to have consequences when it's Republicans winning them, strangely. Your predilection to avoid blaming The Party for not doing what it can to frustrate the Republican agenda is interesting, though.
 
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Revnak

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The sheer absurdity of seeing the group of people who would rather Republicans win elections than moderate Democrats getting angry because Republicans did win the elections and that has consequences for us all is off the damn charts.
WITH A MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY AVENUES TO STOP THIS
 

lil devils x

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If the Dems don’t pull out every trick in the book after this I blame them entirely for her confirmation.
If democrats actually had power in the Senate to be able to to stop it, I would hold them more accountable, but looking at the 200+ judge confirmations the GOP has already been able to pull off due to having the majority, I am not sure democrat's efforts will even have teeth regardless of what stunts they pull, there is a long way till January, so time is on GOP side here either way. The House can't do enough to stop this because the GOP doesn't need the house in order to confirm judges at all. Mitch can just ignore whatever Pelosi dies until after they confirm his judges. Pelosi doesn't set the order they do things in the senate, Mitch does. Mitch doesn't care what Pelosi tries to jam his schedule with, he still makes the damn schedule.
 
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Trunkage

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If democrats actually had power in the Senate to be able to to stop it, I would hole them more accountable, but looking at the 200+ judge confirmations the GOP has already been able to pull off due to having the majority, I am not sure democrat's efforts will even have teeth regardless of what stunts they pull, there is a long way till January, so time is on GOP side here either way. The House can't do enough to stop this because the GOP doesn't need the house in order to confirm judges at all. Mitch can just ignore whatever Pelosi dies until after they confirm his judges. Pelosi doesn't set the order they do things in the senate, Mitch does. Mitch doesn't care what Pelosi tries to jam his schedule with, he still makes the damn schedule.
Yeah, people keep banging on about the Supreme Court. Thats only a small portion of the problem. The court packing at every level they've been doing for 3.5 years is incredible
 
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lil devils x

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Yeah, people keep banging on about the Supreme Court. Thats only a small portion of the problem. The court packing at every level they've been doing for 3.5 years is incredible
And then expecting the democrats to somehow be able to pull off some impossible feat to somehow manage to delay the nomination for 3 1/2 months without the ability to do so in the senate when the GOP doesn't need a a single one of their votes to pass her in the senate and people are going to hold it against them if they fail? Yea.. that sounds perfectly reasonable. I would like to see them try it themselves if they think it is going to happen. ALL they can do is waste some time and still fail, and are their efforts better spent elsewhere at that point?

TBH I would rather them put forth their efforts trying to pressure getting more COVID-19 relief out there and to work on getting a majority this time so they can actually do something later. Pelosi had said she hasn't even ben able to sleep while working on trying to get the unemployed funding here, yet trump walks in all doped up on meds and trashes it all screwing everyone over and yet, we are supposed to BLAME democrats for not being able to control Mitch McConnell when Mitch calls the shots right now? Like that is going to happen.

I don't want this justice either, but I am not seeing that anything they do right now will even stop it in the end and see that as a waste of time that could be spent doing something productive like trying to drum up local pressure campaigns in GOP congressional districts to force them to do something about unemployment benefits instead. There is NOTHING the house can do that will delay a vote for over 3 months in the Senate outside of give them all COVID-19 in stages so they are always just short the amount needed for the vote. Even then, I wouldn't put it past Mitch to then make special rules where they can vote from home, because he controls the Senate and can do what he want.
 
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Seanchaidh

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If democrats actually had power in the Senate to be able to to stop it, I would hold them more accountable, but looking at the 200+ judge confirmations the GOP has already been able to pull off due to having the majority, I am not sure democrat's efforts will even have teeth regardless of what stunts they pull, there is a long way till January, so time is on GOP side here either way. The House can't do enough to stop this because the GOP doesn't need the house in order to confirm judges at all. Mitch can just ignore whatever Pelosi dies until after they confirm his judges. Pelosi doesn't set the order they do things in the senate, Mitch does. Mitch doesn't care what Pelosi tries to jam his schedule with, he still makes the damn schedule.
They are declining to use their power to stop it. Hopefully they don't continue in that same fashion.

 
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tstorm823

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Yeah, people keep banging on about the Supreme Court. Thats only a small portion of the problem. The court packing at every level they've been doing for 3.5 years is incredible
Quick reminder: Senate Democrats without a majority filibustered Bush's appointments, often for months, generally without reason. Then when they gained the majority under Obama, they unilaterally voted to get rid of the filibuster on judicial appointees and started ramming in judges as quickly as they could. The recent behavior by the Republican Senate doesn't even reach repayment in kind.
 

Agema

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Quick reminder: Senate Democrats without a majority filibustered Bush's appointments, often for months, generally without reason. Then when they gained the majority under Obama, they unilaterally voted to get rid of the filibuster on judicial appointees and started ramming in judges as quickly as they could. The recent behavior by the Republican Senate doesn't even reach repayment in kind.
Bush Jr. appointed 327 judges in two terms out of around 400 nominations. Obama appointed 329 in two terms out of over 400 nominations. Trump has appointed over 200 in just one term. So at face value I really don't think these statistics defend your claims.

From having a quick look around, it seems Senate obstructionism started with with the Republicans trying to derail Bill Clinton's appointments.
 

tstorm823

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Bush Jr. appointed 327 judges in two terms out of around 400 nominations. Obama appointed 329 in two terms out of over 400 nominations. Trump has appointed over 200 in just one term. So at face value I really don't think these statistics defend your claims.

From having a quick look around, it seems Senate obstructionism started with with the Republicans trying to derail Bill Clinton's appointments.
Bush didn't have 2 terms with a matching senate majority, nor did Obama. Trump had a full 4 years of Republican senate, it makes sense he's done a faster pace so far. If he gets a second term and loses senate majority for half of it, he will end up in in a similar spot.

If you want the godfather of being blatantly immorally obstructed by the Senate, you have to go back to Robert Bork in the Reagan administration.