Election thread

[gorfias]

I'm finding the opposite of what you posted as well.

Fact check: Trump is still falsely claiming that Mexico is paying for his border wall | CNN Politics

The border wall has been funded by the US government. Mexico has not contributed. The White House declined to comment on our request for an explanation of Trump's Monday comments.

www.cnn.com

Defying reality, Trump insists Mexico 'is paying for the wall'

Trump claims to have a new idea to get Mexico to pay for a border wall. In reality, it's a fresh con, intended to take the place of an old con.

www.msnbc.com

Supreme Court sides with Trump on building border wall with diverted military funds

Supreme Court rebuffs Sierra Club and House Democrats who said Trump was spending billions in defiance of Congress.

www.latimes.com

Pictures of a rally of people who are considered cult-like are... pictures of people who bought into the dogma of Trump. Don't get me wrong, if you showed me how happy people are at Biden's gatherings, I'd say the same. They are thrilled with Biden.

But that doesn't talk about the overall sentiment about how the average American is feeling for Trump. Or Biden. Just like I wouldn't go to a Police Convention to actually test how the world thinks about BLM.

And you're purposefully ignoring some of your fellow forum posters right here who is openly mocking people who are afraid of Trump's reign. Who is delighting at the prospects that our fears become reality. You're ignoring the man who gathered guns and tried to find out where Biden lived. You forget the protesters who were ready to storm places of Government that enacted life saving measures. You forget the videos I and others post on this forum who call every Democrat a cheat and a liar and go on about how much they don't trust them. The group that was going to kidnap Governor Whitmer. You forget these 'very fine' people. The People who rally with Trump any time he says something racist and stupid.

And I'm sorry, this isn't to you, Gorfias, but I'm now officially tired of hearing about our economy. Trump is the only president in Decades going into a President Election losing millions of jobs. And if the economy is going strong and small businesses around the world (and yes, in America as well) are struggling for survival, as well as unemployment rising higher in 3 months than two years of the Global Recession... I mean, what are we talking about here? The big businesses did great during Covid. The average person didn't.

And let's not forget... Trump has given his approval of the Voter Intimidation tactics done via Trump Train.

And what was the response of that from Texas?



I won't talk about your circle. I don't know them. But I will speak about this. More blatant lies. More dismissal. And more outright childish rudeness. From a representative of the GOP party. Not a random dude off the street. Someone completely ignoring facts because who cares.

Divisiveness. And this is why I fear Republican Rule. You have thoughts, anecdotes, and tweets. This is the Republican officials, representatives, and freaking President supporting this.

I agree that the Trump candidacy has brought out the worst in a lot of people from both sides. I was attacking Biden in another forum and was asked to quit it so I did. On that forum, I try to stay with what is positive about the candidate that I support. I'm trying to do that while on this one as well.

One more day. And then maybe we can get to talk about something far other.

 

[Tireseas]

ech·o cham·ber
/ˈekō ˌCHāmbər/

noun
noun: echo chamber; plural noun: echo chambers

1. 
   an enclosed space where sound reverberates.
   "purpose-built echo chambers allow the addition of natural-sounding reverberation to the recordings"
   
   
2. an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered.
   "people are living in partisan and ideological echo chambers"

As an aside, I'm increasingly skeptical "echo chamber" is the right description in the social media age. Rather, I think the better analogy is that of a house. where you can clearly hear your opinions in the same room, but you can hear other opinions coming from other rooms (followed accounts, friends, etc.). However, you're all together overall because you can stand to be around each other, which often means that you're going to be more closely aligned on certain political topics and premises, though you may disagree on priorities, policy proposals, and specific outcomes.

This also explains why partisans tend to be as if not more hostile to more-aligned partisans than less aligned partisans: it's the "you're supposed to be on my side" situation, even though the overall dynamics haven't changed.

To use my experience as an example, I'm fairly active on trans Twitter. Those familiar with trans Twitter know that it is overall left-of-center, but also encompasses a fairly diverse set of political policies and priorities that range from anarcho-communist to various forms of liberalism with varying priorities, as well as separate axis of political feasibility (though the prioritization of feasibility often correlates), as well as a major debate what constitutes the most effective political engagement with the system as a whole. There's a lot of heated discussion, but the reality is that we're almost all fairly aligned on most base goals and premises: gender freedom, expansive baseline healthcare, narrowing of the income gap, and greater worker protections, with the debates fundamentally more about specific outcomes and tactics than the fundamental values that divide this group from others. As such, someone like me, who describes herself as a liberal capitalist with a preference for a strong regulatory state, social safety net, and institutions would be considered "centrist/liberal/conservative" within this group, while my much more left husband would be considered a socialist by any reasonable measure, a close friend is a vocal communist and self-described "leftist," and an acquittance is an avowed anarcho-communist. Yet we're all constantly engaging with each other over Twitter, Telegram, and Discord because, at our core, our values aren't super divergent, even though we all come out at very different points in terms of policy preferences.

We each occupy a different "room" (our specific bubbles) within the "house" (the larger trans community) and are able to talk to each other in sometimes heated ways, but in order to engage outside our value group, we need to leave the house. This gives the impression of debate, and even majority support, while still being insular in terms of value propositions.

 

[SilentPony]

SPLC is no longer a credible source but the other information you share is interesting. Thanks. Reviewing.
EDIT: Example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070 Your link conflates legal and illegal immigration. This sort of tactic puts off border protection advocates big time.

I don't know who told you thank but the SPLC is rated 5/5, A+ and 97/100 in honesty, transparency and accountability.

Charity Navigator - Rating for Southern Poverty Law Center

Southern Poverty Law Center has earned a 4/4 Star rating on Charity Navigator. This Charitable Organization is headquartered in Montgomery, AL.

www.charitynavigator.org

 

[ObsidianJones]

I agree that the Trump candidacy has brought out the worst in a lot of people from both sides. I was attacking Biden in another forum and was asked to quit it so I did. On that forum, I try to stay with what is positive about the candidate that I support. I'm trying to do that while on this one as well.

One more day. And then maybe we can get to talk about something far other.

Look, here's the issue. I was more upset with Democrats and Hillary and the Bernie or Bust people after 2016. Trump wasn't my pick, He was an unknown quantity, and I largely considered him a part of a circus.

I'm not even against Republicans. I saw that Lincoln Project video about Reagan and Original Flavor Bush. They still didn't have policies I hundred percent back, but they held themselves to a political standard. Trump refuses to hold himself to such a standard. And we've seen the deterioration of the Party and the Representatives from that. From out right denial of facts to straight splitting down the road of what is "acceptable" (Republican views) and what is "harmful for the country" (Democrat views)... and they will never hold themselves to the same standards they set out (Supreme Court Justice Barrett says hello).

I wish this will be over in one more day. But from everything I've seen, it's either Biden wins and fringes of the Cult will set themselves up as Resistance Fighters or Truth Seekers and we'll see more like what we've seen with Whitmer and the like. Or Trump wins and the cult becomes more embolden to flout any semblance of balance and become more power-mad and disrespectful.

It will be a trash-fire either way. And yes, that's something that is very much in the lap of Trump who's set up distrust in anything that doesn't crown him King.

 

[Mister Mumbler]

This place is an echo-chamber

The only thing that echos through these halls is the sounds of everyone disagreeing with everyone else very loudly.

 

[tippy2k2]

The only thing that echos through these halls is the sounds of everyone disagreeing with everyone else very loudly.

I DISAGREEEEEEEE!!!!!!

*Bangs Pots and Pans together while flipping the table covered with glassware over*

 

[SilentPony]

I DISAGREEEEEEEE!!!!!!

*Bangs Pots and Pans together while flipping the table covered with glassware over*

 

[gorfias]

Look, here's the issue. I was more upset with Democrats and Hillary and the Bernie or Bust people after 2016. Trump wasn't my pick, He was an unknown quantity, and I largely considered him a part of a circus.

I'm not even against Republicans. I saw that Lincoln Project video about Reagan and Original Flavor Bush. They still didn't have policies I hundred percent back, but they held themselves to a political standard. Trump refuses to hold himself to such a standard. And we've seen the deterioration of the Party and the Representatives from that. From out right denial of facts to straight splitting down the road of what is "acceptable" (Republican views) and what is "harmful for the country" (Democrat views)... and they will never hold themselves to the same standards they set out (Supreme Court Justice Barrett says hello).

I wish this will be over in one more day. But from everything I've seen, it's either Biden wins and fringes of the Cult will set themselves up as Resistance Fighters or Truth Seekers and we'll see more like what we've seen with Whitmer and the like. Or Trump wins and the cult becomes more embolden to flout any semblance of balance and become more power-mad and disrespectful.

It will be a trash-fire either way. And yes, that's something that is very much in the lap of Trump who's set up distrust in anything that doesn't crown him King.

Right after Trump won in 2016, Nancy Pelosi was asked about lessons learned. She essentially said something to the effect that Democrats had to stay true to their values. Whatever that means. Trump is a symptom of a much larger problem. As Michael Moore said, his election was the all time greatest middle finger to a bi partisan establishment that is ruining our lives. His campaign slogan should "start with an F and end with a U". I look at who the Democratic Party has put at the top of their ticket and think, they really haven't learned anything. If Biden wins tomorrow, one positive potential take away from all of this: I'll be proven wrong and he'll do a great job governing the country.

 

[Agema]

If Biden wins tomorrow, one positive potential take away from all of this: I'll be proven wrong and he'll do a great job governing the country.

To whatever extent the president does govern the country. I think, perhaps, they control much less than we might like to think. The economy is really individuals and companies doing their thing, with the Fed setting interest rates and Congress taxes. The laws are made by Congress and ruled on by judges. The government is really the vast cogs of agencies, churning away, full of inertia. And very little can be done that is heavily opposed by the public.

So what does the president do? What even can he do, if substantially opposed?

Perhaps so little changes, president after president, because presidents are not the agents of change we might think them to be.

 

[Gergar12]

Right after Trump won in 2016, Nancy Pelosi was asked about lessons learned. She essentially said something to the effect that Democrats had to stay true to their values. Whatever that means. Trump is a symptom of a much larger problem. As Michael Moore said, his election was the all time greatest middle finger to a bi partisan establishment that is ruining our lives. His campaign slogan should "start with an F and end with a U". I look at who the Democratic Party has put at the top of their ticket and think, they really haven't learned anything. If Biden wins tomorrow, one positive potential take away from all of this: I'll be proven wrong and he'll do a great job governing the country.

Disagree.

 

[Shadyside]

 

[ObsidianJones]

Right after Trump won in 2016, Nancy Pelosi was asked about lessons learned. She essentially said something to the effect that Democrats had to stay true to their values. Whatever that means. Trump is a symptom of a much larger problem. As Michael Moore said, his election was the all time greatest middle finger to a bi partisan establishment that is ruining our lives. His campaign slogan should "start with an F and end with a U". I look at who the Democratic Party has put at the top of their ticket and think, they really haven't learned anything. If Biden wins tomorrow, one positive potential take away from all of this: I'll be proven wrong and he'll do a great job governing the country.

And what lessons have the Republicans learned?

You speak of your core, and your circle. Politics aside, I can easily say there's a lot more that you, Gorfias, and I agree on than disagree. And if the Republican party was more like you, or your circle, or the republicans in the Reagan and Bush eras... Fine. Even the super patriotic W. Republicans were understandable. We were attacked. There was someone who declared themselves our enemy.

What has this era of Republicans learned? That they don't need facts because they can Groupthink and Alternative fact it away? That it's ok that the rights and powers afforded to every American are acceptably removed if they don't look and/or think like the Right? That we value monetary gain over the lives of fellow Citizens? That we don't need acceptable alternatives to notions, just bash them away and it will be ok as long as we have a "sticking it to the left!!!111!" attitude?

Or the lesson I know attach to the Republican Party due to the loudest of your voices... That your party willing to burn this country down to the ground as long as you can proclaim yourself the Kings of the Ashes?

 

[gorfias]

And what lessons have the Republicans learned?

You speak of your core, and your circle. Politics aside, I can easily say there's a lot more that you, Gorfias, and I agree on than disagree. And if the Republican party was more like you, or your circle, or the republicans in the Reagan and Bush eras... Fine. Even the super patriotic W. Republicans were understandable. We were attacked. There was someone who declared themselves our enemy.

What has this era of Republicans learned? That they don't need facts because they can Groupthink and Alternative fact it away? That it's ok that the rights and powers afforded to every American are acceptably removed if they don't look and/or think like the Right? That we value monetary gain over the lives of fellow Citizens? That we don't need acceptable alternatives to notions, just bash them away and it will be ok as long as we have a "sticking it to the left!!!111!" attitude?

Or the lesson I know attach to the Republican Party due to the loudest of your voices... That your party willing to burn this country down to the ground as long as you can proclaim yourself the Kings of the Ashes?

I think the Republican party is learning a lot and that if Trump is successful, against the will of the Romney Right, you could see a populist realignment that cares about jobs and rising wages. You might potentially get Medicaid for all from a Trump before a Biden or Harris. It was Biden that helped give us the ACA, which is essentially nationalized Romney Care. Did you watch the Democratic National Convention? They seemed to care more about the Romney Right than their own Left wing. So the Democrats, as a party, governed by their own senior members, appear to be doubling down on global corporatism that is enraging about 1/2 of the US. It is part of what gave us Trump. And the Republicans, if they're learning anything: stop the never Trump stuff. Trump's populist message could transform the party into one that focuses on jobs and rising wages. Even if the Romney Right would rather drive wages down for a better bottom line. Can the Trump message be better carried by someone else in the future? I hope so. But the corporate legacy media will attack that person anyway.

 

[Shadyside]

Donald was never a populist to begin with. He just says things that will move the crowd. The pandemic was the perfect opportunity for him to show everyone he cared for the working class and to put America first. He failed spectacularly. He just came in at the right time when the disenfranchised were looking for an outsider that would listen to them. He never was anti establishment. He IS the establishment.

 

[Trunkage]

Donald was never a populist to begin with. He just says things that will move the crowd. The pandemic was the perfect opportunity for him to show everyone he cared for the working class and to put America first. He failed spectacularly. He just came in at the right time when the disenfranchised were looking for an outsider that would listen to them. He never was anti establishment. He IS the establishment.

But he gave the money to the rich. It’ll trickle down, Marik. Don’t you understand economics?

Also, how long are you staying after the election?

 

[Trunkage]

This place is an echo-chamber

I’ve realized that when most people say echo chamber what they really mean is that they are sad that they didn’t sway you to their argument. It’s a very good way of smearing a bunch of people as bad so you can start ignoring them

Dalisclock claiming is an interesting case though, as you’re dealing with a bunch of paid advertisements pretending to be legitimate posts, trying to sway approval. So I’d personally call it propaganda

 

[Houseman]

I’ve realized that when most people say echo chamber what they really mean is that they are sad that they didn’t sway you to their argument. It’s a very good way of smearing a bunch of people as bad so you can start ignoring them

I go to another forum where everybody has the same opinions. It's boring. So boring. There's no discussion because we all agree with each-other. That's a real echo-chamber.

Here, people actually disagree, but then are quickly dog-piled by a clear majority and then everyone "likes" that person's post to show support, if you aren't already on everyone's ignore list. If you can just mock someone and get a bunch of likes instead of arguing with the actual point then we're leaning towards clique-ish behavior (which is even more toxic than an echo-chamber) instead of civil debate, and I fault the mods for allowing that. Heck, ignoring people shouldn't even be allowed.

 

[Trunkage]

I go to another forum where everybody has the same opinions. It's boring. So boring. There's no discussion because we all agree with each-other. That's a real echo-chamber.

Here, people actually disagree, but then are quickly dog-piled by a clear majority and then everyone "likes" that person's post to show support, if you aren't already on everyone's ignore list. If you can just mock someone and get a bunch of likes instead of arguing with the actual point then we're leaning towards clique-ish behavior (which is even more toxic than an echo-chamber) instead of civil debate, and I fault the mods for allowing that. Heck, ignoring people shouldn't even be allowed.

I know, liking an idea is the worst. How dare we

Id prefer to be here were some people do not like my ideas then in n echo chamber

 

[Houseman]

Id prefer to be here were some people do not like my ideas then in n echo chamber

Me too.

But still, could be improved

 

[Iron]

I go to another forum where everybody has the same opinions. It's boring. So boring. There's no discussion because we all agree with each-other. That's a real echo-chamber.

Here, people actually disagree, but then are quickly dog-piled by a clear majority and then everyone "likes" that person's post to show support, if you aren't already on everyone's ignore list. If you can just mock someone and get a bunch of likes instead of arguing with the actual point then we're leaning towards clique-ish behavior (which is even more toxic than an echo-chamber) instead of civil debate, and I fault the mods for allowing that. Heck, ignoring people shouldn't even be allowed.

Duly noted. Good argument.