Gaming Journalists Make No Damn Sense

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Iron

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I like how 'Go Woke, Get Broke' types are VERY good at cherry picking results that comfirm their bias.

Eg. I heard ME:A wasnt very good so I waited for a sale. Progressiveness didn't factor into that equation

I know that some people are offended at women, and them having looks or jobs they don't like. So you dont buy it. You do you. Pretending everyone else didn't by it for the same reason is a bad assumption
Gillet sealed it for me.

BTW You can definitely go against a group of people if you're trained.
 

Trunkage

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Gillet sealed it for me.

BTW You can definitely go against a group of people if you're trained.
Yes. It's so offensive talking about what it is to be a man. Just the worst

But I understand. Ads keep telling me what Freedom is. Or Turth. Or Beauty. Or Fair. Or pretending a Lamborghini is a good product. They're all pretty terrible and I think we should get rid of all ads because they only lie. Especially the ones where an eagles scream means freedom. They're the worst
 

Gordon_4

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Yes. It's so offensive talking about what it is to be a man. Just the worst

But I understand. Ads keep telling me what Freedom is. Or Turth. Or Beauty. Or Fair. Or pretending a Lamborghini is a good product. They're all pretty terrible and I think we should get rid of all ads because they only lie. Especially the ones where an eagles scream means freedom. They're the worst
Hey, Lamborghini make fine products. Their tractors are amazing!
 

Iron

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Yes. It's so offensive talking about what it is to be a man. Just the worst

But I understand. Ads keep telling me what Freedom is. Or Turth. Or Beauty. Or Fair. Or pretending a Lamborghini is a good product. They're all pretty terrible and I think we should get rid of all ads because they only lie. Especially the ones where an eagles scream means freedom. They're the worst
You really slayed that strawman good
 

Trunkage

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You really slayed that strawman good
I keep getting told that being offended at things is the literal worst. Cant be offended at Mohammed cartoons, cant be offended at Jewish caricatures, cant be offended at people grabbing women by the pussy, cant be offended at Nazi pugs, cant be offended at racial realism or knees in the back of necks etc.

When did being offended at something become okay again?
 

Trunkage

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I'd like to see a list of the top five best 'woke' games, games that promote progressive or (radical) feminist ideals.

I think such a list would be eye-opening.

If Gone Home is on that list, I rest my case.
Yeah, games don't do that. They tend to just be their own thing and we go around putting labels on it so we can hate/like it based on politics

Maybe an exec comes in and demand as sex/skin colour change, but a whole game?

Hey, Houseman. Ever read the Malazan books?
 

Iron

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I keep getting told that being offended at things is the literal worst. Cant be offended at Mohammed cartoons, cant be offended at Jewish caricatures, cant be offended at people grabbing women by the pussy, cant be offended at Nazi pugs, cant be offended at racial realism or knees in the back of necks etc.

When did being offended at something become okay again?
I don't remember telling you that. Be offended at whatever you want. I wasn't offended by gillete. I gave gillette as an example for the "go woke go broke" meme.
Who do you think you're talking to right now.
 

Dreiko

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The thing about Abby is that her being musclebound is actually an important tell about her character. She could not defend her dad and has both a deep seated vulnerability from how he died and a burning desire for revenge. So she's made herself strong and tough, she's trained until she no longer feels vulnerable and is capable of enacting her revenge when she finds her dads killer.

It is not some half-hearted wannabe-man thing that means Abby is musclebound, it is an important part of her psychology as a character that she's devoted her life to getting revenge and thus being physically capable of taking it when she gets the chance. It is just another way to remind the player that Abby has exactly one goal, just like her failed relationship with Owen shows the player that she'd rather forsake love and sex then give up on her revenge even for just a few minutes.



How about we let women decide what's diminishing to women? I don't see a problem with a game where you have conventionally attractive women like Ellie and Dinah and women like Abby who have different body types and ideals. If anything the more diversity you have, even within groups, in a work of fiction the better it becomes, because more people can find someone who looks like them, talks like them or walks like them. This is not a bad thing and many people, like me, find it very positive when a work tries to show different perspectives and not just revert to traditional conventional attractiveness fantasies.



It is ironic that you type this after spending the rest of the post telling us why one of these ideals is diminishing to women and poor writing.
In a world of martial arts, training physically makes sense in what you describe. In a world of a zombie apocalypse you could just as easily make her into a sharpshooter or a bombs expert or something like that and it would make more sense. There's really no reason that the obsession with revenge and power need manifest in muscle training.



Diversity is not inherently good. It's neutral, and depending on how you implement it it can be good or bad. Making such a character a part of the story is one thing but making em a main char you play as is another and there's difference in opinion regarding the reception of the character either way. Basically, you're taking away a vector for awesomeness that everyone appreciates out of interest for a vector of awesomeness that only some people appreciate for no reason.


And yeah you can think something is diminishing and poor writing and still be fine with it existing. It's not like my opinion is the law of the land. It's still how I see it though and I will express my description based on that while maintaining there's no objective right answer. I think the issue is that people take these things as objectively one way or another too much when it's all subjective.

Just because I say that this thing is this way for me doesn't mean I think it's supposed to be this way for everyone else too.
 

Dreiko

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Or ringing the bell.
Ringing the bell is normal mode. Hard mode is Bell + no charm.

I keep getting told that being offended at things is the literal worst. Cant be offended at Mohammed cartoons, cant be offended at Jewish caricatures, cant be offended at people grabbing women by the pussy, cant be offended at Nazi pugs, cant be offended at racial realism or knees in the back of necks etc.

When did being offended at something become okay again?
I don't think anyone called that ad offensive to men. It was called other things, like untrue or propagandistic, infatuated with concepts such as "toxic masculinity".

You don't need to be offended by something to acknowledge it lying about you and calling out lies is not the same as being offended by them.

Also nobody shot up Gillete headquarters or put out a divine decree guaranteeing heavenly eternity to anyone who took em out as far as I know lol.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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In a world of martial arts, training physically makes sense in what you describe. In a world of a zombie apocalypse you could just as easily make her into a sharpshooter or a bombs expert or something like that and it would make more sense. There's really no reason that the obsession with revenge and power need manifest in muscle training.



Diversity is not inherently good. It's neutral, and depending on how you implement it it can be good or bad. Making such a character a part of the story is one thing but making em a main char you play as is another and there's difference in opinion regarding the reception of the character either way. Basically, you're taking away a vector for awesomeness that everyone appreciates out of interest for a vector of awesomeness that only some people appreciate for no reason.


And yeah you can think something is diminishing and poor writing and still be fine with it existing. It's not like my opinion is the law of the land. It's still how I see it though and I will express my description based on that while maintaining there's no objective right answer. I think the issue is that people take these things as objectively one way or another too much when it's all subjective.

Just because I say that this thing is this way for me doesn't mean I think it's supposed to be this way for everyone else too.

She could’ve used strength training as an effective way of dealing with inner anger and angst, and the psychological satisfaction at seeing a return on those efforts that might’ve also helped keep herself in check while waiting for the opportunity of revenge. Killing Joel is also an extremely personal vendetta for her, so being a sharpshooter or bomb expert probably wouldn’t feel as satisfactory as torturing him physically.

Having said that though, chances are the given the history of and influences on the game’s development, the reasoning for it came after the fact that they simply wanted to have a ripped female in the game.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Well, we know that Battlefield V flopped, the only question is "why?"
We know that Mass Effect gradually got worse and worse, the only question is "why?"
We know that Gillette lost 8 billion due to their preachy commercial. I don't think anyone asks "why" here.

Gather enough data and a pattern emerges.



I never said that "progressiveness" caused ME3's ending to be bad. Please do not attack strawmen.
Even those cherry picked examples aren't even great. Who says Mass Effect got gradually worse? Outside of the ending, the games got better until Andromeda (apparently, I didn't play it). What about Nike and the Colin Kaepernick ad campaign?

You said the ME series got more progressive and the only got worse over time. But the only thing gamers really didn't like was the ending with regards to the trilogy. Thus, unless you're saying "progressiveness" was at least a reason for the ending being what it was, how has "progressiveness" lead to the series getting worse if it didn't affect the one thing (ending) that gamers universally didn't like? No strawman, it's your logic that doesn't make sense. Where's the "progressiveness" leading to the ruination of the series as your narrative claims? Or JUST maybe making a bad game for a series that was "finished" was the reason Andromeda didn't sell?


Just when I thought this thread could not get any dumber. Another thread that was already played out that is once again derailed. @Phoenixmgs don't bother wasting time talking to him. Houseman, I have 0 respect for you and you sound no different those jerks whining about Abby being too muscular (I think TLOU2 sucks.) in a zombie apocalypse. Or those cry baby boys complaining about Charlize Theron kicking grown men asses in Atomic Blonde. I'll drop this:



Don't bother responding with your conspiracy bullshit or how I am making up strawmen. I don't give a rat's ass. As far as I am concerned, you're just another person that does not know as much as you think you do. Good day. I won't respond with anything else.
I'm literally doing nothing but waiting for a shipment of 5 printers at work to add to a spreadsheet.
 
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Iron

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Even those cherry picked examples aren't even great. Who says Mass Effect got gradually worse? Outside of the ending, the games got better until Andromeda (apparently, I didn't play it). What about Nike and the Colin Kaepernick ad campaign?

You said the ME series got more progressive and the only got worse over time. But the only thing gamers really didn't like was the ending with regards to the trilogy. Thus, unless you're saying "progressiveness" was at least a reason for the ending being what it was, how has "progressiveness" lead to the series getting worse if it didn't affect the one thing (ending) that gamers universally didn't like? No strawman, it's your logic that doesn't make sense. Where's the "progressiveness" leading to the ruination of the series as your narrative claims? Or JUST maybe making a bad game for a series that was "finished" was the reason Andromeda didn't sell?



I'm literally doing nothing but waiting for a shipment of 5 printers at work to add to a spreadsheet.
Andromeda was a dumpster fire.
 

Dreiko

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Would make more sense? It very obvious from the game that Abby has been preparing for four years for the moment she finds Joel, at which point she promptly tortures him. Prior to that (and several times after) we are told that she'd do anything, including forsaking her friends to go at her revenge, alone if need be. Being physically fit is one of the best things you can be if you want to trek an unknown distance through zombieland to overpower someone who, by pure genetics, is larger and stronger then you at the baseline.

Your criticism here is basically that you don't think Abby being musclebound as a way to show how consumed by her revenge she is not good because it could be shown another way. This is true, but it would also be much more work to repeatedly show her sharpshootinh (especially in a game where the long range gun is given to Ellie, not Abby) or doing bomb stuff (which doesn't work either with the gameplay for Abby). Showing her being buffed out and then showing her training regime and her access to a state of the art gym is much better storytelling in many ways, conservation of detail and as a constant testament to her drive and tenacity chief among them.



Come on, at least come clean with the fact that you find diversity bad. That's what your previous post implies and your continued criticism of Abby says. It is even obvious with how you think "everyone" likes traditional fanservice femininity but not "everyone" likes diversity. This isn't true and speaks of a very restricted point of view from the stereotypical "gamer dude"-angle. There are many of us who see stuff like Bayonetta or B2, roll our eyes and give the games a pass because we find the pandering obnoxious.



So basically, your opinion is opinion but when someone disagrees they want censorship and other nastiness. I am glad to see your application of metrics are consistent...
I think actual diversity (not of physical traits but of char types) when done well is great.

I think in this day and age it's more "diverse" to have a weak female character rather than a strong one. Definitely in western media. The strong woman who don't need no man is more overdone than the tsundere is in anime at this point.

One of my fav games of all time you play as a wolf for crying out loud. If I was anchored to the generic white brown haired dudes as you seem to believe I was I wouldn't care for all these zany games out there.


Sharpshooting or bombs is a more effective way of taking out someone in a zombie apocalypse setting storywise. The gameplay stuff is not an issue. There is no divine decree that Ellie should have the long range gun, that's likely something decided after they set out with the plan of making Abby like how she was. It's kind of an arbitrary thing.

Also, more fundamentally, it's hilarious that you treat feminine women as all being one thing, that Abby isn't. In fact, there is tons of diversity of femininity, much more in fact than the ways in which masculinely powerful women tend to be depicted as. If you care about general diversity and not just one very laser-focused form of it you would see that.


And I dunno where censorship came into the picture. I just think they make bad games or make games that were good into bad ones. Or at least partially so since this is just one component of a larger whole. My initial post was about how we have conflicting ideals and not one ideal that is good and holy like how it is being talked about.
 

Avnger

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Andromeda was a dumpster fire.
Yet outside of a rushed ending narrative due to development time constraints, ME3 was the best of the series.

edit: Just realized it was Houseman who made the original claim, you were just giving your opinion. My bad =/
 
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