The Perfect Apolitical/Politics Free Video.

[Gordon_4]

We doing the "Women served in WWII on mostly Middle East and Russian fronts so an English one armed woman is totally plausible" again? Cause if so again, a bear served in WWII as well so #WheresmybearEA?

.......Damn, there's a missed DLC opportunity. Bear Cavalry!

 

[Silvanus]

You're the one implying that those opinions are rooted in bigotry, so yes, the two are comparable in that it doesn't make sense to make concessions.

So I maintain that we should still be able to mathematically approximate the outrage.

Absolute bollocks. You're working from the premise that I'm calling you something I never did; you're not arguing with me, but with some kind of ridiculous, monstrous characterisation you've dreamt up. And all the rest of this argument grows from those words you've put in my mouth.

The very idea that disagreement over a video game is analogous to the racism of the KKK should be so self-evidently ludicrous that it should be a non-starter.

Yes, because the antagonist resorted to dirty, underhanded tricks, as is typical. So she won in a moral sense, kind of like Rocky.

But winning or losing isn't the point. It's what Tifa is capable of in the world of Final Fantasy. It's not based on physical rules of muscle mass or bone density or testosterone or estrogen, it's based on magic.

Right, and that's kind of the point, isn't it?

Remove magic, make it a physical fight, and there's only one acceptable outcome for the Gamers (TM).

Yes they do, because Drake has, and goes on to, beat up hundreds of other professional trained mercenaries. In EVERY GAME he fights and beats professionally trained mercenaries. So what makes Nadine any different from the hundreds of other corpses that Drake left in his wake? The game has no explanation for this, so that's how it breaks the rules of the Uncharted universe.

So yes, that's why her inclusion must have been made for political reasons.

If we had some kind of origin story for Nadine, some kind of training montage where we see her being trained from childhood and groomed to be the leader of Shoreline, eventually fighting off 10 men, that would have been believable. I doubt anybody would have complained.

Nathan Drake beats up hundreds of professional mercenaries when you're in control, as a necessity to gameplay. Without it the gameplay couldn't function.

You're not actually supposed to consider Nathan Drake to be a mass-murderer, for instance; it's not acknowledged in the story that he's killed thousands of people. That's purely gameplay.

Plus, of course, Nadine is the mercenary leader. She's in charge. The boss is usually a shit-kicker.

 

[Buyetyen]

And it is in disagreeing with those people that one utters the phrase "don't put politics in games" yet once one does so they get treated as though they did something they shouldn't have, despite as you say "people can agree or disagree".

Because we recognize, "Don't put politics in games," as gatekeeping. These people are trying to declare certain ideas, topics and messages off-limits while claiming they're doing so in the name of artistic freedom and integrity. If you can't see the oxymoron, you're part of the problem.

.......Damn, there's a missed DLC opportunity. Bear Cavalry!

I'd play an RPG as Wojtek the Soldier Bear.

 

[Silvanus]

CoD's politics have been complained about a lot. And Battlefield...remember a BF5 debacle over the female soldier thing?

I do indeed. That's complaining about gender representation, rather than the (much more prominent) geopolitical themes, which rather fits into my argument.

CoD's politics occasionally bring some fire, but it tends to be from the other side of the aisle, no? Promoting militarism etc.

 

[Silvanus]

So this is about speaking on behalf of the character? Wouldn't that normally fall to their creator to do?

Like people upset about women in games wearing something real life women will also willingly wear?

I don't know about the circles you travel in, but in my experience, women don't tend to wear lingerie into battle.

Still weird to me it tends to be a lot of men, the kind of men who claim media influences real life who get upset at women in certain outfits. By that logic wouldn't it mean they want to influence women away from wearing them in real life by targeting media where they won't be called out for slut shaming?

Firstly, nobody here is complaining about women wearing certain outfits. Women can wear what they want. People will sometimes complain about fictional characters being dressed up in skimpy outfits for the benefit of male viewers/players, though.

And, well, that kind of covers the part about "slut-shaming", too. That's a discourse surrounding real people taking real actions. When we're talking about creative media, the only people who had made a direct decision is the developers and executives. The pixels sure didn't.

As for Mobius (and most other games people get mad over) just make the outfit an option, unless you've drastically changed the character model I see no issue in making the stuff an option.

How d'you think it would go down if devs responded to complaints about skimpy female outfits by changing the marketing materials to focus away from them, and making them optional and non-default?

 

[BrawlMan]

To show you how much the "We don't want politics in my/our games is bullshit." Anyone remember We Riot? About the hissy fit some people were throwing on the steam forums. Navigating for people not to play or to ban the game on Steam. A game about politics and people want to get rid of it or throw a b#tch fit because it doesn't agree with theirs, or feels like it's injecting into their beliefs.

Tonight We Riot. Hoooo boy...

Well, this dropped today... And oh my god, the controversy. I mean, how DARE they omit Alex Toufexis's voice over! Bastards! Okay, sole joke aside, it's not even been 24 hours and this game is stirring shit faster than a turd in a Ninja food processor. Here's some samples...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

Will NOT buy a game made by socialists :: Tonight We Riot General Discussions

Socialism/communism never worked, only caused ton of suffering. Read history. And actually in many "socialist" countries, the often totalitarian leaders were living a very luxurious and lavish life like Stalin, Mao, while the commoners suffered and died in poverty I will not give money to...

steamcommunity.com

Remember the dead........ :: Tonight We Riot General Discussions

This game is as offensive to me as a game advocating a National socialist uprising. Any young impressionable person who thinks that Communism is a way forward i plead with you from the bottom of my heart to read Gulag Archipelago by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn.

steamcommunity.com

It didn't matter much, cuz the game did fine anyway. Plus, it was on Steam and the Switch of all places. A brawler combined with an RTS? I got to remind myself to buy that later.

 

[Houseman]

The very idea that disagreement over a video game is analogous to the racism of the KKK should be so self-evidently ludicrous that it should be a non-starter.

It's not a "disagreement", because you and others have clearly shown that you're not content to let people have their own opinions and dislike what they dislike. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No, it's because of their misogyny, that they need to be questioned. "You don't like this game because it has a WOMAN in it!"

That's an accusation of bigotry. So, again, to disprove that, I can simply point to all the games with WOMEN in it and the lack of outcry about those WOMEN, and then the ball is back in your court to come up with an explanation for that, or else concede the argument.

Right, and that's kind of the point, isn't it?

Remove magic, make it a physical fight, and there's only one acceptable outcome for the Gamers (TM).

See? Once again there's the accusation of bigotry you swear you aren't making.

Yes, if you changed the rules of the game world to resemble those of the real world, 9/10 men would beat women in a fight. That's why physical contact or fighting sports have men's leagues and women's leagues.

Oh, wait, the NBA is just sexist. Yeah, that's what it is.

Remember, you're the one who wanted to remove magic. I was happy to assume that Tifa would beat cloud, but no, that outcome wasn't acceptable to you, so you had to contrive a situation in which she would lose.

Nathan Drake beats up hundreds of professional mercenaries when you're in control, as a necessity to gameplay. Without it the gameplay couldn't function.

Doesn't matter, it's canon. In Uncharted 1 the final boss is a QTE of Drake beating a guy unconscious. In Uncharted 2, the final boss fight is a fistfight against a guy with a knife. In Uncharted 4, it's a sword fight. He's held his own in prison brawls and bar-room brawls across the games. Drake is canonically proficient in melee combat, armed or unarmed, just like he's canonically proficient in all manner of guns.

If they didn't want Drake to be proficient in hand-to-hand combat, they should have made him throw a limp-wristed punch, trip, and fall on his face.

You're not actually supposed to consider Nathan Drake to be a mass-murderer, for instance; it's not acknowledged in the story that he's killed thousands of people. That's purely gameplay.

False. At the end of U3, The final boss gives a "we're not so different, you and I" speech where he says "How many men have you killed, just today?"

 

[Buyetyen]

To show you how much the "We don't want politics in my/our games is bullshit." Anyone remember We Riot? Abd the hissy fit some people were throwing on the steam foruns. Navigating for people not to play or to ban the game on Steam. A game about politics and people want to get rid of it or throw a b#tch fit because it doesn't agree with theirs, or feels like it's injecting into their beliefs.

Tonight We Riot. Hoooo boy...

Well, this dropped today... And oh my god, the controversy. I mean, how DARE they omit Alex Toufexis's voice over! Bastards! Okay, sole joke aside, it's not even been 24 hours and this game is stirring shit faster than a turd in a Ninja food processor. Here's some samples...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

Will NOT buy a game made by socialists :: Tonight We Riot General Discussions

Socialism/communism never worked, only caused ton of suffering. Read history. And actually in many "socialist" countries, the often totalitarian leaders were living a very luxurious and lavish life like Stalin, Mao, while the commoners suffered and died in poverty I will not give money to...

steamcommunity.com

Remember the dead........ :: Tonight We Riot General Discussions

This game is as offensive to me as a game advocating a National socialist uprising. Any young impressionable person who thinks that Communism is a way forward i plead with you from the bottom of my heart to read Gulag Archipelago by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn.

steamcommunity.com

It didn't matter much, cuz the game did fine anyway. Plus it was on steam and the Switch of all places. A brawler combined with an RTS? I got to remind myself to buy that later.

I had forgotten about that game. I'll have to pick that up sometime.

False. At the end of U3, The final boss gives a "we're not so different, you and I" speech where he says "How many men have you killed, just today?"

Which is then immediately ignored as you transition into the boss fight and it's never mentioned again. Shit writing is shit writing.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Shit writing is shit writing.

I had the mental image of someone writing a script with literal poop on a page. Giggling about how great it is turning out.

 

[FennecZephyr]

I never played it-

Yeah, that's clear.

If you had at least watched a playthrough, you'd know that Ellie's relationship with Dina is a huge part of what gives the final sequence and ending the weight they have.

 

[Houseman]

Which is then immediately ignored as you transition into the boss fight

That line is at the end of the bossfight, actually.

 

[CaitSeith]

I had the mental image of someone writing a script with literal poop on a page. Giggling about how great it is turning out.

The usual AAA quality writing then.

 

[BrawlMan]

It's not a "disagreement", because you and others have clearly shown that you're not content to let people have their own opinions and dislike what they dislike. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No, it's because of their misogyny, that they need to be questioned. "You don't like this game because it has a WOMAN in it!"

That's an accusation of bigotry. So, again, to disprove that, I can simply point to all the games with WOMEN in it and the lack of outcry about those WOMEN, and then the ball is back in your court to come up with an explanation for that, or else concede the argument.



See? Once again there's the accusation of bigotry you swear you aren't making.

Yes, if you changed the rules of the game world to resemble those of the real world, 9/10 men would beat women in a fight. That's why physical contact or fighting sports have men's leagues and women's leagues.

Oh, wait, the NBA is just sexist. Yeah, that's what it is.

Remember, you're the one who wanted to remove magic. I was happy to assume that Tifa would beat cloud, but no, that outcome wasn't acceptable to you, so you had to contrive a situation in which she would lose.



Doesn't matter, it's canon. In Uncharted 1 the final boss is a QTE of Drake beating a guy unconscious. In Uncharted 2, the final boss fight is a fistfight against a guy with a knife. In Uncharted 4, it's a sword fight. He's held his own in prison brawls and bar-room brawls across the games. Drake is canonically proficient in melee combat, armed or unarmed, just like he's canonically proficient in all manner of guns.

If they didn't want Drake to be proficient in hand-to-hand combat, they should have made him throw a limp-wristed punch, trip, and fall on his face.



False. At the end of U3, The final boss gives a "we're not so different, you and I" speech where he says "How many men have you killed, just today?"

that's your problem though, as much as you claim otherwise that you're not a bigot, you sure have a problem with a woman with experience and military combat being able to take two men who aren't exactly military efficient. The fact that you asked for proof of her bad assery by having a training montage or showing her at a young age, it's just ridiculous. Something you did say in the gaming journalism thread. There is show and don't tell for a reason. You can tell right from the get-go she is someone that can fight and as tough as she says she is. Don't need a flashback for that. I have no problem with you just disliking Nadine, the problem is that you're not honest about your opinion. and there are plenty of women that can kick the asses of men in real life. I've seen it. Doesn't matter if they're military, police, or civilians. You forgot, I'm from Detroit, and most women do not play that shit you are trying to sell. Try saying all that crap in Downtown Detroit. You got plenty of women that are capable, and will happily prove you wrong.

Just so we're clear everyone, I do not like Nadine either. though the reason I dislike her is that she's a Karma Houdini and she's supposed to be seen as a lesser evil compared to some of the villains period when in reality she ain't much better. Sure she's not as bad as say the villain from the second game, but she ain't much better than the villains from one, three, four, and Lost Legacy. The only thing she has over the villain from Lost legacy, is that he is racist. That's literally it. It's the writers trying to give her redemption, when she did nothing to earn it. The same problem I have with characters like bakugo, sasuke, and endeavor. And I don't like Sam Drake either, because he is a bad fanfic character.

 

[CaitSeith]

Jesus Christ, is this still going?

Yep. Because our usual stirrers are still obsessed with TLOU2.

 

[BrawlMan]

Yep. Because our usual stirrers are still obsessed with TLOU2.

And uncharted 4.

 

[Houseman]

you sure have a problem with a woman with experience and military combat being able to take two men who aren't exactly military efficient.

Yes, I do have a problem with plot holes, especially when they are obviously motivated by ideology.

The fact that you asked for proof of her bad assery by having a training montage or showing her at a young age, it's just ridiculous.

Again, you're twisting words and telling lies about what I've said. I didn't ask for proof. I said "If we had some kind of origin story for Nadine, some kind of training montage where we see her being trained from childhood and groomed to be the leader of Shoreline, eventually fighting off 10 men, that would have been believable. I doubt anybody would have complained."

There is show and don't tell for a reason.

Yeah, you can SHOW a training montage.
Heck, it could have even been the game's tutorial. You learn how to fight as Nadine, which also serves to show how Nadine learned to fight! It's poetry!

I have no problem with you just disliking Nadine, the problem is that you're not honest about your opinion.

The problem is that you're willfully misinterpreting my opinion because you want to paint me as a bigot, but you can't even restate my argument without hyperbole and outright lies.

You forgot, I'm from Detroit, and most women do not play that shit you are trying to sell. Try saying all that crap in Downtown Detroit. You got plenty of women that are capable, and will happily prove you wrong.

Ahh yes, Detroit, where there's something, unknown to science, in the water that makes women have the same muscle mass and bone density as men, and makes weight classes irrelevant, right? That Detroit?

 

[BrawlMan]

Yes, I do have a problem with plot holes, especially when they are obviously motivated by ideology.

That's not how plot holes work, and you know better than that. You're being the guy that's using a term the wrong way, and he doesn't know what it means.

The real plotholes would be all these ancient cities nobody but Nathan and the antagonist seem to find themselves. It got really ridiculous by the third game. If there's anything close to a plot hole, it would be something like that.

Yeah, you can SHOW a training montage.
Heck, it could have even been the game's tutorial. You learn how to fight as Nadine, which also serves to show how Nadine learned to fight! It's poetry!

And if they did that somebody else will complain about something. I highly doubt you would have been that satisfied about it.

Again, you're twisting words and telling lies about what I've said. I didn't ask for proof. I said "If we had some kind of origin story for Nadine, some kind of training montage where we see her being trained from childhood and groomed to be the leader of Shoreline, eventually fighting off 10 men, that would have been believable. I doubt anybody would have complained."

Same difference. The fact that you want the writers to jump through a million hoops on fire just to get proof is ridiculous. Not everything you should be explained with a freaking flashback. Sometimes you can just tell a character is just by their body language and actions. That's more than enough. I will give the writers proper credit for that in Uncharted 4. Not everything has to be super freaking obvious. Sometimes it's about those little subtle details you have to pay attention at.

The problem is that you're willfully misinterpreting my opinion because you want to paint me as a bigot, but you can't even restate my argument without hyperbole and outright lies.

When it's coming straight from your mouth, there's nothing to misinterpret. All you're doing is slightly changing things, or back pedaling only to go back to your original argument again. You been doing this dance the whole time and you ain't fooling anyone. Only yourself.

 

[Houseman]

That's not how plot holes work

Ahh yes, the ol' "just claim what the other guy says isn't true" trick. A classic.

And if they did that somebody else will complain about something.

Ahh yes, the ol' "just claim that the proposed solution wouldn't work because of unspecified reasons" tactic. Textbook.

Same difference.

Ahh yes, the ol' "handwave away meaningful differences and barrel on as if two dissimilar things are the same" maneuver. Sublime.

When it's coming straight from your mouth, there's nothing to misinterpret.

Ahh yes, the ol' "I'm just going to straight-up tell a lie" trick. Cromulent.

 

[CriticalGaming]

The real potholes would be all these ancient cities nobody but Nathan and the antagonist seem to find themselves. He got really ridiculous by the third game. If there's anything close to a plot hole it would be something like that.

Nate finds ancient civilization or tomb that nobody has entered in 700 years. Bad guys know where the back door is to ambush you.

Same difference. The fact that you want the riders to jump through a million hoops on fire just to get proof is ridiculous. Not everything you should be explained with a freaking flashback. Sometimes you can just tell a character is just by their body language and actions. That's more than enough. How good the writers proper credit for that in Uncharted 4. not everything has to be super freaking obvious period sometimes it's about those little subtle details you have to pay attention at.

I mean everybody know that Black Window is a top tier military agent. But that doesn't mean she should or could take on a couple of other trained (even if less so) armed men. She doesn't have super powers, so she has nothing but "technique" to fall back on. So her beating up on endless dudes is just as ridiculous.

However she is a comic book character and who the fuck cares? The fantasy of it is showing a character beating up bad guys so it doesn't really make any difference that it isn't realistic.

Two play devil's advocate though, if just slightly because i still don't really care. Naughty Dog tries to make things hyper realistic, and also clearly has a female empowerment fetish of late. So it is kind of dumb just to watch Nadine make fools of the two guys. I mean if they had hit her a few times and still she manages to beat them up that would have been better, but it was almost like they were afraid of really making it a fair fight.

Still fantasy and not important though.

 

[BrawlMan]

Ahh yes, the ol' "just claim what the other guy says isn't true" trick. A classic.



Ahh yes, the ol' "just claim that the proposed solution wouldn't work because of unspecified reasons" tactic. Textbook.



Ahh yes, the ol' "handwave away meaningful differences and barrel on as if two dissimilar things are the same" maneuver. Sublime.



Ahh yes, the ol' "I'm just going to straight-up tell a lie" trick. Cromulent.

Once again, you refuse to learn anything. Doing the same thing over and over again. Truly the definition of insanity.

Two play devil's advocate though, if just slightly because i still don't really care. Naughty Dog tries to make things hyper realistic, and also clearly has a female empowerment fetish of late. So it is kind of dumb just to watch Nadine make fools of the two guys. I mean if they had hit her a few times and still she manages to beat them up that would have been better, but it was almost like they were afraid of really making it a fair fight.

Ironically, they had to make her less powerful at hand-to-hand when coming in contact with the main villain in Lost Legacy. Making her look weak sauce by comparison. Even in "semi-realistic"/grounded video games, there will always be the DBZ power scaling effect.