New Title IX guidelines formalized by Betsy DeVos.

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Schadrach

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Issue of the perpetrators and victim sharing classes?
Rescheduling one or both to alternative classes to reduce potential contact would fall pretty firmly under "supportive measures" - it's not punitive, disciplinary, nor is it an unreasonable burden on the accused. Accordingly, it could be done prior to investigation, or even in cases where the complainant is unwilling to start a formal complaint. Even without a court order either.

What about when the accusation is against someone who works at or with the school?
It's treated the same as against a student. So "supportive measures" for the accuser, but nothing punitive, disciplinary, or that is an unreasonable burden for the accused, until after investigation and a hearing. Those monsters and their insistence on not punishing people without a hearing, amirite?

or has been a guest of the school?
This...does seem to be a gap in the guidelines. There nothing about guests of the school that I've noticed.
 

lil devils x

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Rescheduling one or both to alternative classes to reduce potential contact would fall pretty firmly under "supportive measures" - it's not punitive, disciplinary, nor is it an unreasonable burden on the accused. Accordingly, it could be done prior to investigation, or even in cases where the complainant is unwilling to start a formal complaint. Even without a court order either.

It's treated the same as against a student. So "supportive measures" for the accuser, but nothing punitive, disciplinary, or that is an unreasonable burden for the accused, until after investigation and a hearing. Those monsters and their insistence on not punishing people without a hearing, amirite?

This...does seem to be a gap in the guidelines. There nothing about guests of the school that I've noticed.
The questions were in direct response to this statement:
Ralfy's statement:
"There is no need for coordinators and committees. The victim should report the incident to the police. "

The reason they need to have coordinators and committees is to be able to address these very things when they happen. Sometimes rescheduling is not even possible especially with the best professors in their fields who also often have other obligations in research or other areas as well and have limited schedule available or when the student also has other obligations and this will force Universities to have to choose how to handle these issues.

With staff, it also does not work, for example in the case of Larry Nassar, who was accessing underaged girls on campus who were not even attending the college but were working with other programs that are available at universities. This is not limited to gymnastics either, even when I was 9, I was attending odyssey of the mind competitions at local universities and was receiving personal instruction from university staff. The university not acting sooner in regards to reports on Larry Nassar also allowed him to victimize many more girls than he would have otherwise had access to. They have to be able to act in order to keep students safe WHILE it is being investigated or you risk putting more students in harm's way. Not doing anything about these reports allowed predators such as Nassar to abuse 332+ girls and Richard Strauss to abuse 177+ male students. Schools provide unprecedented access to a large amount of victims thus requiring more stringent measures to be taken to keep the students safe.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Well yes, that's the defense attorney. Their job is to try to present the evidence that paints the defendant in the best light. And some times, that means casting doubt on the victim in ways that moral people find reprehensible.
Actually whats fucked up isn't that he argued that point. You are right, it is the defense attorney's job to argue in any way possible to get his client off. But, whats fucked up is that it still works, that we can still blame the victim for dressing slutty or acting flirtatious in such a way that the poor man had no choice but to rape them.
 

ralfy

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So how does the school handle court ordered restraining orders? Issue of the perpetrators and victim sharing classes? Issues of the perpetrators or their friends who attend the same school harassing the victim? What about when the accusation is against someone who works at or with the school? or has been a guest of the school?

In addition, it is not always safe to report sexual assaults to the police, especially in cases where the perpetrators were officers or friends of officers or in communities where retaliation happens frequently. In some cases they can instead harass and charge the victim with a crime rather than allowing the victim to press charges. There is no victim protection in the US, so the victims life is still at risk even after they press charges and has even be killed by their attacker while they are out on bail.

More on this:

Due to how poorly rape is still handled in the US, it still is not always safe to report. Even when you have an 11 yr old child gang raped by 22 men, you still have lawyers in the US who are willing to blame the child. Until something seriously changes, I am not seeing that as being always an option here.

When these things are still rampant in the US, yes much more really needs to be done.
"Rape is the easiest violent crime to get away with in the United States. On average, less than 1% of sexual assaults ever lead to conviction.
Let me break that number down. According to the Justice Department's most recent National Criminal Victimization Survey, only 23% of rape or sexual assault victims reported the crime to police.
Of those who do report, the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting database shows that only about 20% of reports lead to arrest. According to the nonprofit Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, which analyzes national data regarding sexual assault and rape, only about half of arrests lead to trial."


Crime requires criminal investigators like police officers, and charges filed through lawyers and legal officials, not people appointed to committees or as coordinators unless they happen to be experts on the matter and recognized by the state.
 

ralfy

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The questions were in direct response to this statement:
Ralfy's statement:
"There is no need for coordinators and committees. The victim should report the incident to the police. "

The reason they need to have coordinators and committees is to be able to address these very things when they happen. Sometimes rescheduling is not even possible especially with the best professors in their fields who also often have other obligations in research or other areas as well and have limited schedule available or when the student also has other obligations and this will force Universities to have to choose how to handle these issues.

With staff, it also does not work, for example in the case of Larry Nassar, who was accessing underaged girls on campus who were not even attending the college but were working with other programs that are available at universities. This is not limited to gymnastics either, even when I was 9, I was attending odyssey of the mind competitions at local universities and was receiving personal instruction from university staff. The university not acting sooner in regards to reports on Larry Nassar also allowed him to victimize many more girls than he would have otherwise had access to. They have to be able to act in order to keep students safe WHILE it is being investigated or you risk putting more students in harm's way. Not doing anything about these reports allowed predators such as Nassar to abuse 332+ girls and Richard Strauss to abuse 177+ male students. Schools provide unprecedented access to a large amount of victims thus requiring more stringent measures to be taken to keep the students safe.
Any staff member who is told of the crime must report it to the police right away. The police must investigate the matter, and with local prosecutors, decide what to do with the accused.

I mention this because there have been cases where it turned out that the victim made up the crime, but the accused was punished anyway.
 

lil devils x

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Any staff member who is told of the crime must report it to the police right away. The police must investigate the matter, and with local prosecutors, decide what to do with the accused.

I mention this because there have been cases where it turned out that the victim made up the crime, but the accused was punished anyway.
We are fully aware of false reporting, which is extremely low.

Myth: A lot of victims lie about being raped or give false reports.
Fact: Only 2-8% of rapes are falsely reported, the same percentage as for other felonies.[3]

However, as I pointed out above, it is not always safe for the victim to report to police due to how rape is still currently handled in the US by the police, the courts and by the community at large. The vast majority of rapes are never reported for this reason.

When we have the reality of our school cop in high school was smoking pot and having sex with his 13 yr old neighbor, AND he is the cop that is in charge of reporting sexual assaults on campus to, that is easier said than done. It is easy for people to say reporting is the way to go, until they realize our current reality is they charge girls with filing a false police report and then later find pictures of her rape on the rapist's phone, this does not work the way it is intended.
 

CM156

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Actually whats fucked up isn't that he argued that point. You are right, it is the defense attorney's job to argue in any way possible to get his client off. But, whats fucked up is that it still works, that we can still blame the victim for dressing slutty or acting flirtatious in such a way that the poor man had no choice but to rape them.
You're certainly right in that regard.

EDIT: Also, the website ate the rest of my post, which was a detailed response to two other posters. I'm going to try again.

EDIT EDIT: It wouldn't let me post the links to my sources. Sorry.

I doubt it’s a coincidence that lawyers can be found in the pub closest to the courtroom after a day’s lawyering.
About one out of every three I've seen alcohol destroy good men and women. It's why I don't touch the stuff myself.
But yes, the burden of defending positions one may morally disagree with all day can cause one to seek release in substance abuse.

That's interesting. In England and Wales, they start at unanimous, but the judge has discretion to drop the bar to 10-2 if the jury are struggling to resolve the issue. Generally, I think this is a good idea: handing jurors de facto veto power (given they may not be very smart, responsible or ethical) poses risks.
I did know that about England and Wales, but I did not know that about Scotland. The more I read about Scots law, the more alien it is to me, compared to English (and Welsh) common law.
I would agree that it does pose risks, but I still consider the system preferable, at least in the USA. I believe strongly in the incorporation of the Bill of Rights to the states through the 14th Amendment, and it is already a well established precedent that you need a unanimous verdict on federal crimes. Also, of all 50 states, only two allowed for non-unanimous verdicts for felonies, Oregon and Louisiana. And Louisiana allowed it for explicitly racist reasons (while Oregon was more implicitly racist). I would also argue that retrying someone after a hung jury, while not a trivial matter, is rather easy, given that the motions have already been decided by the court. Look at Peter Bright, that Ars Technica writer. His first trial resulted in a hung jury, resulting in a mistrial. He was retried, and in less than a month, convicted by a different jury. I strongly believe that if one person on a jury is firmly asserting their "no" and refuses to come to a different conclusion, there exists enough doubt in the verdict that the majority should not be permitted to overrule them and impose a sentence on the defendant.
 

ralfy

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We are fully aware of false reporting, which is extremely low.

Myth: A lot of victims lie about being raped or give false reports.
Fact: Only 2-8% of rapes are falsely reported, the same percentage as for other felonies.[3]

However, as I pointed out above, it is not always safe for the victim to report to police due to how rape is still currently handled in the US by the police, the courts and by the community at large. The vast majority of rapes are never reported for this reason.

When we have the reality of our school cop in high school was smoking pot and having sex with his 13 yr old neighbor, AND he is the cop that is in charge of reporting sexual assaults on campus to, that is easier said than done. It is easy for people to say reporting is the way to go, until they realize our current reality is they charge girls with filing a false police report and then later find pictures of her rape on the rapist's phone, this does not work the way it is intended.
According to the study you cited, the reports were declared false by the police.


That proves my argument.
 

Agema

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I did know that about England and Wales, but I did not know that about Scotland. The more I read about Scots law, the more alien it is to me, compared to English (and Welsh) common law.
I know that Scottish law is mostly a mixed system of common law, and civil law (based from the principles of Roman law): a friend of mine studying law in Scotland suggested it was about half-way between the English common law style, and the continental European civil law style. Personally, I have no idea - way beyond my understanding.
 

Silvanus

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According to the study you cited, the reports were declared false by the police.


That proves my argument.
That's an inaccurate summary. The 2-8% figure quoted in the report is based on 6 studies, not just one. In only one of them does the figure derive solely from law enforcement (though with specific training, technical assistance and a random sample checked). In the other 5 studies, the researchers themselves investigated the evidence as well, and the proportions fell in the 2 - 8% range.
 

Schadrach

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With staff, it also does not work, for example in the case of Larry Nassar, who was accessing underaged girls on campus who were not even attending the college but were working with other programs that are available at universities. This is not limited to gymnastics either, even when I was 9, I was attending odyssey of the mind competitions at local universities and was receiving personal instruction from university staff. The university not acting sooner in regards to reports on Larry Nassar also allowed him to victimize many more girls than he would have otherwise had access to. They have to be able to act in order to keep students safe WHILE it is being investigated or you risk putting more students in harm's way. Not doing anything about these reports allowed predators such as Nassar to abuse 332+ girls and Richard Strauss to abuse 177+ male students. Schools provide unprecedented access to a large amount of victims thus requiring more stringent measures to be taken to keep the students safe.
- The Title IX statute and existing regulations contain broad definitions of a school’s ā€œprogram or activityā€ and the Department will continue to look to these definitions for the scope of a school’s education program or activity. Education program or activity includes locations, events, or circumstances over which the school exercised substantial control over both the respondent and the context in which the sexual harassment occurred, and also includes any building owned or controlled by a student organization that is officially recognized by a postsecondary institution (such as a fraternity or sorority house).
- Title IX applies to all of a school’s education programs or activities, whether such programs or activities occur on-campus or off-campus. A school may address sexual harassment affecting its students or employees that falls outside Title IX’s jurisdiction in any manner the school chooses, including providing supportive measures or pursuing discipline.
So Nassar's actions would definitely have fallen under the school's "program or activity." About the only thing that the school has any control of that doesn't count is study abroad, and presumably that's because it's outside US jurisdiction and it's difficult for the school to exert much meaningful control across an ocean.

Simple question for you: Do you think the accused should be subject to disciplinary or punitive action without or before an investigation and hearing take place? If so, what should the school's and the complainant's obligations to the respondent be if the respondent is found not responsible?

Crime requires criminal investigators like police officers, and charges filed through lawyers and legal officials, not people appointed to committees or as coordinators unless they happen to be experts on the matter and recognized by the state.
Unfortunately for you, Title IX regulations consider taking the approach of "report it to the police, the university is not equipped to hold rape trials adequately - we will accept the results of police investigation whatever they might be" to be sex discrimination. So some kind of school-level quasi-justice process has to exist, the real question is exactly what.

We are fully aware of false reporting, which is extremely low.
Where exactly it lands depends wildly on what methodology you use for counting it. Numbers around 2% only count it if there's enough evidence to charge the accuser with filing a false report. Numbers closer to 10% include cases where there is clear evidence that the accusation is not true, but there's not enough to charge the accuser with false reporting. Numbers in the 15-20% range also tend to include cases where the accusation describes conduct that probably happened, but is not illegal.

The unfortunate reality is that of cases where the conduct described is criminal, ~10% the accused is almost certainly guilty, ~10% the accused is almost certainly innocent, and the other 80% are somewhere in the grey in between where there's just not enough evidence to really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt either way. When you claim false reporting is extremely low, you're arguing that all or nearly all of the grey area are definitely rapes where the rapist got away with it.

The LA Times once produced an article on the case of Tracy West and Louis Gonzales, her ex. When I mentioned earlier in the thread that one of the only cases of a declaration of factual innocence I knew of offhand was for a sexual assault case, it's this one. Read up on it, and realize that by most of the studies, she didn't falsely accuse him. Even though she specifically names him, and it's downright impossible for him to have committed the crime, and there's even a tiny amount of evidence that she may have done it to herself.

For another one, by the methods used in most of the studies the Brian Banks case would be a properly punished rapist (before his conviction was overturned). Definitely not a false accusation. After all, the investigation didn't find sufficient evidence to charge her with false reporting at the time, and her admitting to it in that recording is not admissible because California requires all parties consent to recording and she did not provide a signed statement admitting to the false accusation (she was unwilling to admit to falsifying the story officially because she was worried the school system might try to sue her for the money she won from them back, which of course they did).

Going back to the original topic - a lot of the changes from the Obama-era guidelines are direct reactions to things that actually happened. For example, requiring training materials not hold an explicit bias, be published online and available to the public is a direct reaction to cases like Doe v U. Miss, where the U. Miss training materials contained things like if the complaining student lies that’s a sign the accusation is true, or that if a respondent is too consistent it's a sign it's a rehearsed story and thus a sign of guilt. The only time deceit is mentioned is that the respondent might do it, and that should be seen as proof of guilt. And of course, everyone's favorite example of unbiased due process: ā€œRemember your standard: just need to have some evidence to justify outcome – only if evidence is overwhelming in the other direction do you consider appeal.ā€ Almost like the goal is to come up with a paper thin excuse to punish the accused, and not actually determine the truth...
 

Agema

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Where exactly it lands depends wildly on what methodology you use for counting it. Numbers around 2% only count it if there's enough evidence to charge the accuser with filing a false report. Numbers closer to 10% include cases where there is clear evidence that the accusation is not true, but there's not enough to charge the accuser with false reporting.
That is not a reasonable response. You have a source with several cited papers and which explains some of the issues of what consitutes a false report. You can't just gainsay it off the top of your head and expect credibility. For the record, European studies are also pointing to a similar range (2-8%).There are meta-analyses as well, which also come in around 5%. Studies go into some depth for their criteria, which you can go and check up and think about for yourself to see how reasonable they are. A recent UK study for instance suggested ~2% clearly false, and ~8% including probable and possible.

You can say there might be more, but to look through the studies citing this sort of 2-8% range suggests that some of those the criteria define as "false" might actually be true, so I think there needs to be huge caution arbitrarily bumping up a few percent on your personal guesstimate.

Expanding to 15-20% with people who report stuff to police that isn't actually a crime is just irrelevant. People should perfectly free to report what they think might be a crime without this being conflated with false rape accusations.
 

lil devils x

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So Nassar's actions would definitely have fallen under the school's "program or activity." About the only thing that the school has any control of that doesn't count is study abroad, and presumably that's because it's outside US jurisdiction and it's difficult for the school to exert much meaningful control across an ocean.

Simple question for you: Do you think the accused should be subject to disciplinary or punitive action without or before an investigation and hearing take place? If so, what should the school's and the complainant's obligations to the respondent be if the respondent is found not responsible?
I think in most cases they should be suspended with pay until the investigation or hearing is resolved. Of course exact action taken should be determined on a case by case basis of what the actual accusation was, evidence presented and require a thorough investigation to include the possibility of other victims, but if there is a possibility of assault or sexual assault, due to the risks involved, they cannot afford to allow access to more victims while they investigate. They could be terminated immediately however, if the victim walked in with a video or other evidence that would warrant that action. If they find conclusive evidence they were not responsible, full reinstatement and even compensation could be considered. I would not say required compensation, because there are always going to be grey areas, for example, they only did one thing that was questionable or said something unprofessional but it turns out didn't do the other worse thing, they would still receive a reprimand and it would remain on their file, but not necessarily cost them their job and would not receive compensation because they were still partially responsible for unprofessional behavior. Everything isn't necessarily black and white, and there does not necessarily need to be intent for something to still be wrong. It is like bad jokes. Some are just bad jokes, unprofessional yes, and can be taken in different ways, others are just crude and vulgar and could still lead to termination. For example, if a professor is joking about a students breasts or genitals, that very well could lead to them being terminated and replaced with someone who understands how to conduct themselves in a professional manner.
 
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ralfy

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That's an inaccurate summary. The 2-8% figure quoted in the report is based on 6 studies, not just one. In only one of them does the figure derive solely from law enforcement (though with specific training, technical assistance and a random sample checked). In the other 5 studies, the researchers themselves investigated the evidence as well, and the proportions fell in the 2 - 8% range.
It's a study that looks at others. The point is that several reports were concluded as false by the police, which supports my argument.
 

ralfy

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Unfortunately for you, Title IX regulations consider taking the approach of "report it to the police, the university is not equipped to hold rape trials adequately - we will accept the results of police investigation whatever they might be" to be sex discrimination. So some kind of school-level quasi-justice process has to exist, the real question is exactly what.
It will have to be as adequate as what authorities like the police can provide.
 

lil devils x

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It's a study that looks at others. The point is that several reports were concluded as false by the police, which supports my argument.
So if you show reports that were concluded false by police, and then I show reports where the police charged the victim with filing a false report and then they find evidence they were actually raped afterwards, what exactly does that accomplish?

Pictures in Accused Rapist's Camera Provide Chilling Evidence Against Him
Alleged rapist's photos clear woman who was charged with falsely reporting rape.


Sara Reedy, the rape victim accused of lying and jailed by US police, wins $1.5m payout

It will have to be as adequate as what authorities like the police can provide.
You mean these police? You do not think we should do better?
Police officers in the US were charged with more than 400 rapes over a 9-year period

Where I live in Texas, when I was 15 and working at the local pizzaria, the owner had to get a restraining order against the local sheriff for grabbing underage girls and pulling them onto his lap and groping our breasts. The sheriff was not even allowed on the property due to his repeated sexual assaults. Then, later, the same sheriff had his department investigated by the feds for raping female prisoners and violently abusing others. Instead of removing him from office, they just let a rookie take the fall for lesser crimes and he remained in office. THAT sadly is only a few things that our local law enforcement here has done, I had provided a long list of these things years back on the escapist, we have had our DA locking people up illegally and taking their land, Judge murder the DA and his wife, the point is something has to change in the system for this to be safe for people to do. The reality is so screwed up you can't make this shat up. They just keep replacing one crook with another, then another and it never ends. How screwed up the the "law enforcement" is here is too much to even list tbh:

Notice how the DA who went to prison later was responsible for removing the previous criminal sheriff and installing the new criminal sheriff here and then covers for him later? That is how this has worked here longer than I have been alive and will likely still work when I leave this earth. It isn't like we haven't been trying to change these things, it is that we have been kept powerless to do so. In regions where "Good ol boys" still call the shots we have no options here. What are people supposed to do in the meantime, remain helpless? Go vigilante? Sadly, currently we are still being forced to work outside the system to be able to keep people safe because the people controlling system are just as dangerous as the person you are trying to be "saved" from. In this same town where the sheriff liked to grope underage girls, I was raped as a child. My best friend was raped. I saw a girl being gang raped in the parkinglot of my school by members of the football team after a football game and people just walking by ignoring it like it is normal and not doing anything about it. My sister was raped, although not in this town, my cousin was also raped, even my grandmother was raped. This is what it is really like to grow up in many regions of the US. Girls are just supposed to expect this to happen because nothing is ever going to be done to change it and people just throw their hands up and say " it will have to do". ? I am not willing to accept that.
 
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Silvanus

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It's a study that looks at others. The point is that several reports were concluded as false by the police, which supports my argument.
Then I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing.
 

Agema

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So if you show reports that were concluded false by police, and then I show reports where the police charged the victim with filing a false report and then they find evidence they were actually raped afterwards, what exactly does that accomplish?
I heard that apparently a small study in New Zealand looked at false rape accusations - only 150 cases, and concluded 3 were false. It later turned out that all three "false" victims accused attackers who were later found out to be serial rapists. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't make false accusations, but...

When we consider how much false claims end in injustice, the 2-8% figure might also be misleading by giving an idea it's very substantial. The UK study I read a while back suggested only ~1% of designated false accusations to result in the accused being charged (i.e. <0.1% of total rape reports). Convictions from a false accusation we must assume to be significantly fewer. It also has a rather more detailed quantitative and qualitative analysis of the designated false accusations which is quite illuminating. I should probably try to find it.
 

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It's a study that looks at others. The point is that several reports were concluded as false by the police, which supports my argument.
As far as I can tell, your argument is that many false claims happen. Like possibly up to 8%. But that means what exactly, to you?

Yes, there will be false claims. Nothing you can do to stop that. You can mitigate that, and that's what Betty De Vos claims she is doing. I would dispute that the changes wouldn't really change the false claims level that much but makes it way easier not to be tried for rape.
 

Avnger

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It's a study that looks at others. The point is that several reports were concluded as false by the police, which supports my argument.
It sounds as if you're using 2 different standards here.

A rapist is only a rapist if convicted in court. (as you've argued)
Therefore, a false report can only be considered such if the person who reported is convicted in court.