Hello, Elliot Page

thebobmaster

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What you are describing is not what I posted. Elliot Page isn't "taking a woman's job". He's maintaining the job he already had. It seems to me that, unless your post is supposed to be sarcastic, you are advocating for Elliot to be kicked off of the role of Vanya because he's transgender, which is about as clear of a violation of federal laws against sex and disability discrimination as you can get.
 

SilentPony

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What you are describing is not what I posted. Elliot Page isn't "taking a woman's job". He's maintaining the job he already had. It seems to me that, unless your post is supposed to be sarcastic, you are advocating for Elliot to be kicked off of the role of Vanya because he's transgender, which is about as clear of a violation of federal laws against sex and disability discrimination as you can get.
To play devil's advocate there has been a lot of actors and actresses who have been forced to withdraw from roles playing trans characters because it was considered inappropriate and harmful to the LGBTQ+ community for cis people to play trans characters. So the concept of leaving a role because your personal gender identity doesn't lineup with the identity of the character you're playing is something already established in Hollywood.
Plus there is the idea of a bona fide occupational qualification, that does allow for discrimination based on age, gender, race, looks, etc...Not that Im saying Elliot Page should leave, its his role, let him have it, but for example if you're casting a movie and the role calls for a tall black woman in her mid 50s, then yeah not hiring Elliot Page based on his gender, race, height and age is all perfectly legal.
I'm not sure if the California law has been changed to mandate gender identity of the actors has to be the same as the character, but that'd certainly be an interesting legal argument.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Maybe I misunderstood, I was saying that in response to to libertarianism and socialism being naive as opposed to capitalists.
Ahh, well on paper socialism sounds ok, but trying to make it work in todays world would be extremely difficult. Libertarianism is even more foolish since you would pretty much need to start over from human knowledge scratch for that to have any hope of working and it would probably still develop to what we have now. Capitalism isn't a bad system, but we treat it stupidly and seem to expect it to work best without any hands on it. Well regulated capitalism works very well, unregulated capitalism is garbage. This also isn't to say that everything should be left to capitalism, there are certainly market failures which a free market can't really deal with, that's where government intervention and social programs come in.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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That is why you can't build a system on hope, its why libertarians and socialists are naïve. They think you can make a system with good intentions and everyone will just play nice, you have to take into account those who will abuse the system and decide how much of that abuse your system is wiling to accept. Because ultimately there will always be some, but you want a system strong enough to take it and flexible enough that it can't be broken by people abusing it.
yeh however the system really wasn't meant to be dealing with what should be petty issues that are being deemed human rights issues. E.G. Yaniv arguing that having genital waxing services was a human right.


I really don't understand why Jessica Yaniv comes up as an example of how the system is open to abuse.

She tried to sue people on poor grounds.... and roundly failed. The system prevented her doing so. Surely that's an example of the system working as intended, and preventing an abuser.
She roundly failed but the people she sued faced ~12 months of having to deal with the bullshit, being unable to provide waxing services and for their trouble get a whole $2,000 compensation (which hadn't been paid as of February) Oh and that's the 3 who fought through to the end not the 6 or so who just gave up and offered settlements or entirely left the field.

Yaniv has then gone on to sue more places but keeps offering settlements because it's lose lose almost as even if you win the time and money spent will often exceed the possible damages.


She's used as an example by the right of why there shouldn't be laws protecting trans individuals. They love to bring her up.
She's also a great example because early on many on the left were defending her and claiming everything bad said about her was transphobic attacks from criticism of the under 16's nude swimming session Yaniv tried to organise to all the leaked weirdness about tampons.

I get the impression that the complainers think filing lawsuits is their right and privilege, not that of minorities.
Yes cause clearly white people use being white as a way to abuse the legal system to bully people and get their own way /s
 
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thebobmaster

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To play devil's advocate there has been a lot of actors and actresses who have been forced to withdraw from roles playing trans characters because it was considered inappropriate and harmful to the LGBTQ+ community for cis people to play trans characters. So the concept of leaving a role because your personal gender identity doesn't lineup with the identity of the character you're playing is something already established in Hollywood.
Plus there is the idea of a bona fide occupational qualification, that does allow for discrimination based on age, gender, race, looks, etc...Not that Im saying Elliot Page should leave, its his role, let him have it, but for example if you're casting a movie and the role calls for a tall black woman in her mid 50s, then yeah not hiring Elliot Page based on his gender, race, height and age is all perfectly legal.
I'm not sure if the California law has been changed to mandate gender identity of the actors has to be the same as the character, but that'd certainly be an interesting legal argument.
That is a fair argument, to say the least. I feel like there is a difference, however, between not hiring Elliot Page for future roles based on his gender identity, and deciding his gender identity means he doesn't qualify for the role he's already been playing for two seasons. If they decide, in the future, that Elliot shouldn't get further female roles, I may not agree with it, but that's their decision. I feel it would be much worse to say, however, "Oh, you're a male now? Well, you've been doing fine in this role for two years, but because of that, we need to get someone else."
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
yeh however the system really wasn't meant to be dealing with what should be petty issues that are being deemed human rights issues. E.G. Yaniv arguing that having genital waxing services was a human right.
Then you define that genital waxing is not a human right or just don't include it with the list.

She's also a great example because early on many on the left were defending her and claiming everything bad said about her was transphobic attacks from criticism of the under 16's nude swimming session Yaniv tried to organise to all the leaked weirdness about tampons.
No, shes really a bad example since you are allowing one abusive person to influence you to the point of wanting to throw everything out. Her abuses do show the need for resolving some of the loopholes she was allowed to exploit but nothing that is inherently wrong with the law.
 

Silvanus

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She roundly failed but the people she sued faced ~12 months of having to deal with the bullshit, being unable to provide waxing services and for their trouble get a whole $2,000 compensation (which hadn't been paid as of February) Oh and that's the 3 who fought through to the end not the 6 or so who just gave up and offered settlements or entirely left the field.

Yaniv has then gone on to sue more places but keeps offering settlements because it's lose lose almost as even if you win the time and money spent will often exceed the possible damages.
OK, so your problem is with the legal system taking too long to come to a conclusion, and that being involved as a defendant is too damaging, even if you win?

Then sure, that's true. It's also true across the entirety of the legal system, and is nothing particular or unique about litigation on this particular topic.
 
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SilentPony

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That is a fair argument, to say the least. I feel like there is a difference, however, between not hiring Elliot Page for future roles based on his gender identity, and deciding his gender identity means he doesn't qualify for the role he's already been playing for two seasons. If they decide, in the future, that Elliot shouldn't get further female roles, I may not agree with it, but that's their decision. I feel it would be much worse to say, however, "Oh, you're a male now? Well, you've been doing fine in this role for two years, but because of that, we need to get someone else."
I mean yeah that's true. A current role shouldn't be effected in anyway, especially if Page's gender wasn't considered when casting the role. But going forward roles he might have been considered a natural for may be closed off because studios want to give female roles to female actors.
And I've read the Emmys and Academy Awards will not being doing away with best actor/actress for a gender neutral category, so who knows if Page will get a nomination again and what category he'll be placed in if its a leading role award.
 

Fieldy409

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I wonder how this will effect Umbrella Academy if they do another season. Will Elliot continue to act a woman character?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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OK, so your problem is with the legal system taking too long to come to a conclusion, and that being involved as a defendant is too damaging, even if you win?

Then sure, that's true. It's also true across the entirety of the legal system, and is nothing particular or unique about litigation on this particular topic.
Except in Yanivs case where it's been implied Yaniv rang round places trying to get a wax and if a place said they could accommodate because they they had people who did work on male genitalia she put the said she'd get back to them and never did then called other places instead.

In the case of genital waxing services they are specialised due to differences in cock and balls v vagina.

In another case I think it was in Ireland there was a similar case to the gay wedding cake thing in the USA.

A guy asked for a known to be fairly religious baker to make a gay wedding cake, the store refused on religious grounds, he took them to the human rights court. They won, because as it turns out the guy is a known activist and was phoning round shops asking them to make a cake for a gay wedding and then when they said they would he'd say he'd check round a bit more and get back to them. He never got back to any of the ones who said they would if he wanted. Now to be clear I think the bakery was stupid and shouldn't be refusing something non specialised like that but it shows how activists / people looking to pick a fight will go round doing so due to the systems in place.

The unique factor is how easy it is to bring the litigations (as this goes through the courts differently to a normal lawsuit) and how kind of easy it is to just use identity and a bludgeon.

I mean Sir Lenny Henry mocked the kind of attitude of using your identity to bludgeon others in the past.

 

Dwarvenhobble

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Then you define that genital waxing is not a human right or just don't include it with the list.
But that had to be decided in court because there was no decision on it.

No, shes really a bad example since you are allowing one abusive person to influence you to the point of wanting to throw everything out. Her abuses do show the need for resolving some of the loopholes she was allowed to exploit but nothing that is inherently wrong with the law.
No just wanting to make sure it's air tight. A lot of evidence points to Yaniv lawsuits (in the waxing case) being motivated by her being a huge racist and a pervert and trying to use that to attack people of a certain ethnicity with certain religious beliefs. It's people looking to punish those they disagree with rather than seeking actual access to things these days. It's people in some cases wanting to turn the tables after believing they've been hard done by.

It's people trying to assert themselves as higher on the chain to victimise others

 

Buyetyen

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Something I think is being missed: Jessica Yaniv is nothing more than an excuse to continue opposing trans rights. Because once you've decided you don't give a shit about trans rights, all you need is an excuse.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
But that had to be decided in court because there was no decision on it.
This has nothing to do with the trans law, this has to do with issues with the court system in Canada.

No just wanting to make sure it's air tight. A lot of evidence points to Yaniv lawsuits (in the waxing case) being motivated by her being a huge racist and a pervert and trying to use that to attack people of a certain ethnicity with certain religious beliefs. It's people looking to punish those they disagree with rather than seeking actual access to things these days. It's people in some cases wanting to turn the tables after believing they've been hard done by.

It's people trying to assert themselves as higher on the chain to victimise others
No, you don't want things air tight. Because that would lock out too many people who were in the muddle middle ground just to make sure abusers could not abuse things. I don't really get your point here since we have already established that Yaniv is abusing things, so what is your point?
 

Breakdown

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I'm also worried about this. UA is a good show
I would guess that the character will be rewritten to be transgender. Vanya was never the most engaging character to begin with though, so I don't think the show will lose anything by making that change.
 

Xprimentyl

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Except in Yanivs case where it's been implied Yaniv rang round places trying to get a wax and if a place said they could accommodate because they they had people who did work on male genitalia she put the said she'd get back to them and never did then called other places instead.

In the case of genital waxing services they are specialised due to differences in cock and balls v vagina.

In another case I think it was in Ireland there was a similar case to the gay wedding cake thing in the USA.

A guy asked for a known to be fairly religious baker to make a gay wedding cake, the store refused on religious grounds, he took them to the human rights court. They won, because as it turns out the guy is a known activist and was phoning round shops asking them to make a cake for a gay wedding and then when they said they would he'd say he'd check round a bit more and get back to them. He never got back to any of the ones who said they would if he wanted. Now to be clear I think the bakery was stupid and shouldn't be refusing something non specialised like that but it shows how activists / people looking to pick a fight will go round doing so due to the systems in place.

The unique factor is how easy it is to bring the litigations (as this goes through the courts differently to a normal lawsuit) and how kind of easy it is to just use identity and a bludgeon.

I mean Sir Lenny Henry mocked the kind of attitude of using your identity to bludgeon others in the past.

As Silvanus pointed out, you're only pointing at abuses and exploitation of the system, things that have been around since there was a system to abuse and exploit; those cases are not indicative of the motives of the larger LGBTQ community. Fine, some assholes call around until they find someone they can throw the law at; shame on them as it's a proper waste of theirs and the system's time and effort. But what if someone in a similar situation, who truly just wanted those services and was similarly and unfairly denied, had made that call? They'd be well within their right to use the law and it'd have been a proper use of it, am I right?