Cyberpunk 2077 Review thread - Umm....

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
675
118


Trying the fully understand this one. I’ve only played a few hours literally, and have no idea if any of the preset customizations matter or mean anything other than frivolous character stylings, so perhaps they could’ve done more with them in a respectful or meaningful way.

Having said that, it prompts contemplation over what exactly the boundaries or guidelines are for appropriation accusations.

If I get Mexican for dinner is that an example?

Or would it be if rich white folk do so?

What about white people acting black in terms of language or mannerisms?

What if it only involves distinct ethnic groups of different backgrounds, like say a Native American and an Asian?


Curious what others think.

The general issue with this, is thats its never applied with any kind of realization that a)All culture is the result of being mixed (other then maybe some isolated island/deep amazon tribes) b)The people going off about it are happy to consume media that does the exact same thing with twenty or thirty other cultures without a care for it because they're ignorant of it.



I recall a similar case with a Native American monster/spirit thing in one of the Harry Potters.\ (or maybe it was the spinoff). But teh thing is, Harry Potter was already rife with lifted culture from indigenous Europe, India, Africa, Middle East, etc.


Or Chris Hemsworth apologizing for wearing a native "cosutme", but his apology was on set in full Thor garb. There's still (actually one of the only officially recognsized indigienous peoples in Europe) tribers up scandinavia who use that attire and follow those religions that Thor is a weird reinterpreted carricature of (who would probably also object to the shift in his depiction to a more Roman-empire themed look, considering the Roman Empire are the ones who wiped out most of the indigenous cultures in Europe)
 

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
675
118
Nope. The Sami people are very distinct from the old Norse, including having their own animistic religion that's only shares a few things with Asatro (most likely as cross-cultural exchanges). Their clothes are very different from those of the old Norse too. You can read more about them here. Sufficient to say is that Asatro is functionally a dead religion, apart from a few weirdos who want to resurrect it, and plays a very minor role in the day to day life of Scandinavian people. As a Swede I can absolutely not muster any indignation against Marvel for Thor being an absolutely worthless representation av Asatro, just as I can't muster any indignation against DC for their shitty take on Hellenism with Wonder Woman and Aquaman.

It is also worth noting that the fall of West Rome predates the earliest references to Asatro by about two or three centuries and that Rome never reached as far as Scandinavia. Neither did Rome manage to wipe out the Germanic tribes which practiced the Germanic religion from which Asatro would later spring.

You'd have a lot more credence here if you hadn't absolutely butchered the facts on the people you supposedly wanted to defend.

So forget the Sami specifically , and just apply literally the entire rest.

Roman empire, Holy Roman Empire, Catholic Church not actually labelled as an empire. All pretty heavily invested in why there aren't "indigenous" people in most of Europe, and dead religion vs live religion is all a matter of how successful the cleansers were.


When the work of fiction draws on the mythology and culture that was already assimilated or wiped out, no one bats an eye. There is no credence given to whether garb, leg. legends, , designs, chants et all are used in a vaguely correct fashion. So where is our borderlline where it is then appropriation? 100 living practictioners, 1000? 10000? Do we need X number of years since the culture was last assailed (and/or actually wiped out)
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,906
118
I doubt that would've fixed the game's "attitude", since it's this attitude of 'Dude, pain and suffering, right? I bet you never thought about that, huh?' that makes the story so obnoxious. You could've had different characters, but the urge to misery porn it up would've still likely been the focus. Though the fact that they did this with the old cast makes it sting that much more, ontop of semi-ruining the original game. But then at the same time a lot of this could've been eleviated if the characters weren't so fucking boring; TLoU2 's story failure is a sticky web.

The problem with even the original TLoU is that its game design detracted from whatever narrative impact was intended. It was to the point where I’m not sure how or why anyone was able to become so attached to any of the characters in the first place, that it would be so bothersome what happened to them in the sequel. I mean, the first game’s story was serviceable but ended with a pretty contrived scripted sequence where even shooting the doctor in the foot resulted in an insta-kill. What if some people were more rationally inclined to say you know what, this doctor doesn’t deserve to to die, and maybe Ellie should at least be able to decide what she wants for herself.


Anyways back on topic,

I’m kinda starting to feel sorry for the shitmagnet this game has become. If CDPR is able to salvage this whole project let alone their reputation it’ll likely be the greatest comeback of the generation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
19,965
4,715
118
The problem with even the original TLoU is that its game design detracted from whatever narrative impact was intended. It was to the point where I’m not sure how or why anyone was able to become so attached to any of the characters in the first place, that it would be so bothersome what happened to them in the sequel. I mean, the first game’s story was serviceable but ended with a pretty contrived scripted sequence where even shooting the doctor in the foot resulted in an insta-kill. What if some people were more rationally inclined to say you know what, this doctor doesn’t deserve to to die, and maybe Ellie should at least be able to decide what she wants for herself.
I disagree.

I mean, you can call into question the logistics of one man killing a hundred people, but in terms of character motivation it made perfect sense. It makes sense for Joel to trek across the country seeing as Ellie could lead to a cure. And it's cleverly built up to fit along side Joel's cynical attitude; It starts as a small job getting Ellie to the capital building, then her being revealed to be immune motivates Tess, which causes Joel to reluctantly stick around. At the capital building Tess then gets infected and guilts Joel to bring Ellie to Tommy. Joel and Ellie then bond slightly having to deal with an unstable Bill, and step by step the game brings the characters to a "point of no return".

And Joel kills the doctor, because Joel would kill the doctor. Yes, it's a bit silly that even if you shoot him in the foot that he falls over dead, but that's not a contrived character motivation. It's completely in character for Joel to murder this guy and claim Ellie for himself by that point in the story. It's completely OUT of character for Ellie to leave a safe community that she's partially responsible for in keeping safe, and dragging a person she loves into what is likely a suicide mission. It's similarly out of character for Tommy, who is seen as a leading figure of said community.

Again, you can criticize the logistics, but nothing that happens narratively or gameplay wise in TLoU1 runs counter to the characters' personality within the context of the world they inhabit. And that's because in the first game the characters drove the plot, whereas in the sequel the plot drove the characters, which is why it trips and falls flat on its face so much.
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,906
118
I disagree.

I mean, you can call into question the logistics of one man killing a hundred people, but in terms of character motivation it made perfect sense. It makes sense for Joel to trek across the country seeing as Ellie could lead to a cure. And it's cleverly built up to fit along side Joel's cynical attitude; It starts as a small job getting Ellie to the capital building, then her being revealed to be immune motivates Tess, which causes Joel to reluctantly stick around. At the capital building Tess then gets infected and guilts Joel to bring Ellie to Tommy. Joel and Ellie then bond slightly having to deal with an unstable Bill, and step by step the game brings the characters to a "point of no return".

And Joel kills the doctor, because Joel would kill the doctor. Yes, it's a bit silly that even if you shoot him in the foot that he falls over dead, but that's not a contrived character motivation. It's completely in character for Joel to murder this guy and claim Ellie for himself by that point in the story. It's completely OUT of character for Ellie to leave a safe community that she's partially responsible for in keeping safe, and dragging a person she loves into what is likely a suicide mission. It's similarly out of character for Tommy, who is seen as a leading figure of said community.

Again, you can criticize the logistics, but nothing that happens narratively or gameplay wise in TLoU1 runs counter to the characters' personality within the context of the world they inhabit. And that's because in the first game the characters drove the plot, whereas in the sequel the plot drove the characters, which is why it trips and falls flat on its face so much.
There’s no reason it can’t be done both ways. Hell both of the only “good” Terminator movies are plot driven, even though it sort of steers towards character-drive in the sequel.

It’s also not out of character for Ellie to me, considering the damaged psyche she was burdened with after the first game and guilt complex she developed in the sequel. Fans especially seem inclined to put her on some sort of nostalgic pedestal, uncomfortable with the notion of “their girl” being broken in some way. That was pretty much the whole point of the game, but there was still a silver lining -

 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
19,965
4,715
118
There’s no reason it can’t be done both ways. Hell both of the only “good” Terminator movies are plot driven, even though it sort of steers towards character-drive in the sequel.

It’s also not out of character for Ellie to me, considering the damaged psyche she was burdened with after the first game and guilt complex she developed in the sequel. Fans especially seem inclined to put her on some sort of nostalgic pedestal, uncomfortable with the notion of “their girl” being broken in some way. That was pretty much the whole point of the game, but there was still a silver lining -

Oh, I'd be fine with Ellie being broken, it's pretty much the closing shot of the first game, and it's after Winter when something truly breaks within her that she actually becomes interesting. But Ellie was never a spiteful, vengeful murderer, not in the first game nor in the opening hours of the sequel. And by presenting the game as grounded as it is, it comes across very, VERY unbelievable for this girl who lives a relatively comfortable life all things considered, has friends and romance, is valued by the people in her community, and even made a first step in forgiving Joel (an act in itself that I find unbelieveable and troublesome), to risk all of that and travel over a thousand miles across a dangerous wasteland just to avenge the death of a loved one. This might make some sense if Ellie was a naive and sheltered daddy's girl, but that's far from the case. It feels like the game trying to reflect the gaming community's love for Joel and resulting hatred and urge for revenge after his grisly murder onto Ellie, and basically crowbarring Ellie into this role.

Her suffering under the knowledge that she could've provided a cure that could've made life better for the whole human race, but was robbed of that by the person she loved and basically saw as a father isn't even weaved into her motivation in any way, which is the only thing that could've given some credence to her out-of-character thirst for blood.

Showing Ellie being broken by having her go on a bloody rampage isn't just out of character, it's also incedibly contrived. It feels less in service to her character arc and more in service to her being the playable character in a violent action game. It also belies Naughty Dog's, or at least Neil Druckmann's, ability to depict a dark decent; relying solely on very graphic, violent murder. It would've been far more bold and in character to show Ellie being broken and decending into darkness WITHOUT her having a grisly body count. But seeing as this is a sequel to a third-person stealth action game that takes place in a dark, grounded world, and this gameplay type can't be deviated from, the character needs to be forced to fit within that kind of mold, even if it results in breaking character (which it does).
 

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,906
118
Lots of physics comparison videos up.


This is just so sad. Makes one think fully realize that CDPR really has a lot of catching up to do, and that’s only if they can first scrounge together a functional studio environment.

Also, if they ever go back to The Witcher, they won’t be able to get by on merely a strong narrative and questing/looting. Modern game design needs strong support/peripheral systems because world building is becoming the new holy grail.
 
Last edited:

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
2,273
1,788
118
Country
4
This is just so sad. Makes one think that CDPR really has a lot of catching up to do, and that’s only if they can first scrounge together a functional studio environment.
To be fair, an older game doing better at certain things doesn't necessarily make the newer game inferior if it makes up for it in gameplay or story or atmosphere, but attention to these details does tend to make the game feel properly thought out and cared for on multiple levels.
 

Catfood220

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 21, 2010
2,108
367
88
1.05 update out, I don't know for Xbox one, but the game looks crisp now on a PS4 base/slim.
So, I wasn't going to get this for a while until the game was in a fixed state. However, my brother got it for me for Christmas and seeing as I'd like to play it, does it actually work on a standard PS4 now or should I give it a few months?
 

PsychedelicDiamond

Wild at Heart and weird on top
Legacy
Jan 30, 2011
2,032
861
118
Finally finished Cyberpunk 2077 after about 84 hours on hard mode.

It was my most anticipated game of this year, as I imagine it was for a lot of people. I've had high, though I think mostly realistic, expectations. And for what It's worth, it fulfilled most of them, even if it rarely ever surpassed them. Cyberpunk 2077 is a good game, a very good one, even. But having to live up to high expecations I feel obliged to offer not only praise but criticism. That being said, let's start with the praise:

As I've already mentioned in my first impressions, Night City is still the most visually impressive and most immersive urban environment ever depicted in a game. It's a dense and lively futuristic metropolis where every single district looks, sounds and feel different. Its locations tell countless little stories through environmental design alone. One look at one of its crowded streets and you can determine their cultural influences, economic situation and demographics. The game in general is a triumph of visual design and visual worldbuilding. Cyberpunk's alternate 2077 depicts a small slice of a dystopian future that, while not exactly believable, feels detailled and lived in. It's a violent and sleazy world, but in a way than can be quite beautiful. It's those moments, where I ride a Japanese motorbike through the neonlit streets of Night City's Japantown, past sex shops, night clubs and pachinko parlours, a katana on my back, a revolver from the Soviel Union in my holster, where Cyberpunk 2077, as an immersive experience, really clicks. In those moments the games, often frankly rather juvenile, obsession with the aesthetics of the genre really pays off.

And to its credited, it does back up that obsession with aesthetics with fairly consistently strong writing. Though I think there are a few things worth talking about here. I believe one on the lead writers stated that the main quest of Cyberpunk 2077 was slightly shorter than that of Witcher 3. This is a bold faced lie. It is, in fact, much shorter than that of Witcher 3, not even quite half as long, I'd estimate. Now, as I've already mentioned, it still took me 84 hours to finish so there's not exactly a lack of content there. The truth is, next to the main quest there are a number of very elaborate questlines that are technical optional, yet feel like a very integral part of the games story and are presented with the same amount of production values as the main campaign. It's pretty easy to tell them apart from the one off "Gigs" that make up most of the games other side quests, as they usually tend to spin off from the mainquests and center around characters you meet in them. And by all means, they're all very good and memorable characters. The first act of the game, which should take about 5 hours, includes a number of characters that don't appear in the later parts of the game and yet despite their limited screentime they didn't fail to leave an impression. The characterizations stay consistently strong throughout the game. There are actually a number of love interests in the game, four overall. Straight male, homosexual male, Straight female, homosexual female. Straight female V gets an honest ex cop from a poor suburb, straight male V a tomboyish nomad girl, lesbian V an artistically inclined punk girl and gay V is settled with a washed up Rockstar. They all are characters that are easy to fall in love with and as far as romances in games go, I'd call them well realized.

The writing is at its strongest, though, when it comes to its two central characters. Cyberpunk 2077 has the character dynamic of a buddy movie. V's buddy being Johnny Silverhand, portrayed by action movie star Keanu Reeves. Silverhands mind, you see, was copied onto an experimental chip that, after a heist gone wrong, ended up in V's head. Getting it out of there before Johnny's personality overwrites that of V is the main goal of the main quest. The relationship between these two characters is the emotional core of the game. They are very different people and neither is happy with the situation. Johnny is a a larger than life figure, an underground rockstar and terrorist responsible for one of the greatest attacks on the worlds most powerful corporation. A kind of cross between Mick Jagger and Che Guevara. He's sometimes called an Anarchist, sometimes called a Marxist but he's mainly one thing, and that's angry. He wants to overthrow the plutocracy and what's gonna happen afterwards is for someone else to figure out. Fifty years later, he still has got a score to settle. V, meanwhile, mostly gets to play straight man to this flamboyant character. Something that may rub some people the wrong way is that V is not quite a completely malleable character. Of course they don't have the decades of characterization in other media that Geralt from the Witcher games had but neither are they just an Avatar for the player. While you decide how they dress, whether they warm up to Johnny or not, whether they pursue a romantic relationship and even some small details like whether they drink alcohol or not, there are still the fundamentals of a predefined personality there. V will always be a hotheaded but empathethic young mercenary with much less of a "big picture" view of the world than Johnny has. And, for the record, you can pick one out of three backstories for them (Former Nomad, Street Kid, Corporate Executive) but frankly, it rarely makes a major difference.

Witcher 3 was based on, at least back then fairly obscure, Polish fantasy novels. Cyberpunk 2077 is based on a tabletop RPG. But make no mistake, its presentation is pure Hollywood, though very often Hollywood at its most lecherous and its most decadent. As a matter of fact it often reminded me of Troika's cult classic RPG Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines in that regard. Much like that game it goes to great lenghts to fit the aesthetic sensibilities of film and television into an RPG, kicking and screaming. Dialogue comes not only with extremely high quality voice acting but also with very elaborate choreography on the characters side. While they talk to you, other characters will not only emote, they may smoke cigarettes (People in this game smoke a lot.), eat lunch, pace around the room, sit down and do other things people do when they have a conversation. And god knows despite being almost entirely in first person, the game really knows how to go for those dramatic camera angles during big story moments. God knows CD Projekt wants you to see how high their production values are. Mostly it pays off. Again, mainly in the absolutely stellar voice acting. Ironically enough it was Reeves, the most high profile actor in the game, that took me the longest to warm up to but by the end even his performance really sold me on the character. In other aspects, the games obsession with spectacle can become a bit overbearing. There are moments when Cyberpunk 2077 goes all in on the big cinematic setpiece moments and doesn't know when to stop. I'll get back to that later because by now I've spent multiple paragraphs criticizing a game without even once talking about the gameplay.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Phoenixmgs

PsychedelicDiamond

Wild at Heart and weird on top
Legacy
Jan 30, 2011
2,032
861
118

That being said, it's mostly really good too. In my first impressions I compared the combat to games like Fallout 4 and Outer Worlds, but now, having finished the game and experienced high level gameplay of at least the character build I went with (Handguns/Revolver + Stealth) I can tell you that it's a much better shooter than it has any right to be. It takes a while to get there but once you've levelled up your skills and got some decent equipment it's snappy as hell. Getting into a shootout with my trusty Soviet revolver that tends to take enemies heads off in one shot was just as satisfying as sneaking into a compound, either taking out enemies at short range or with a silenced handgun. It's hardly Wolfenstein New Order, of course, but it offers enough mobility, satisfying gunplay and a wide array of options, both in skills and weaponry, that it might very well be the most actually fun to play Action RPG. Falls a bit short on some of the details. Most cars handle as if their wheels were smeared with butter (Bikes are slighty better), AI could use some improvement in almost every aspect and some of the sandboxier mechanics like interaction with pedestrians, vehicle physics and the crime- and police system feel like the developers treated them as an afterthought at best.

There are plenty of nits to be picked when it comes to the games mechanics and I could go on for a while talking about minor flaws and annoyances I had with it, not the least of them being the still ever presents bugs and glitches. They are irritating, not for how severe they are but for how frequent they are. But rather than get hung up on details I think it'd be a much better idea to get to what, in my perception, is the games actual major flaw that makes it fall short of the genres greatest accomplishments: The quest design is just not that good and I have actually spent some time unpacking what exactly it's issues are. For one, especially main quests suffer from a lot of railroading. I've mentioned before, the game is very well directed and I often felt CD Projekt was so proud of that direction that they were hesitant to hand any control over it to the player. This means that the games quests are more often than not closer to the wrong end of the Bethesda to Obsidian scale (The wrong end is the Bethesda end. Obviously.) Skill checks in dialogue very rarely have an effect beyond adding additional dialogue options for flavour text, moments that feel like there are decisions to be made often turn out to be inconsequential, quests tend to turn out and play out the same way. In this way many of the games main quests resemble the missions in a story driven open world game like a Mafia or Red Dead Redemption more than something like New Vegas. The "Gigs", that being the minor sidequests based on one off mercenary work are a different can of worms entirely. Much like Witcher 3 made a valid effort to offer a comprehensive view of the day to day work of a monster hunter in a medieval fantasy world, Cyberpunk makes a valid attempt to offer a compehensive view of the kind of work a hired gun in a futuristic megacity might be hired to do. That being said, most of them boil down to infiltrating a building and either assassinating someone, stealing something, rescuing someone or sabotaging something. The thing is, from a purely gameplay perspective, these are not even bad. As a matter of fact, they feature some of Cyberpunk's best level design, almost each one of them has a designated interior, all of them very detailled and pretty varied (Though the game does favour warehouses, factories and night clubs) and all of them feel like small, compact, Deus Ex style puzzle boxes with countless different ways to accomplish your objective. The problem ist just, much like the main quests the tend to lack different solutions or noticeable consequences. And, you know, I wouldn't even be complaining if the game didn't occasionally show that a different kind of design would be possible. Very rarely Cyberpunk 2077 offers glimpses of what could have been a satisfyingly holistic approach to game design. Early on in the game I assassinated the owner of a seedy club in a sidequest. In a mainquest later one where I had to get information from the manager of a brothel owned by the same gang, this unlocked an additional dialogue option to intimidate him. In one of the larger sidequests that had me attend a funeral I met a member of a gang. In an unrelated side mission later on where I had to break into the office of a restaurant and dig up dirt on a corrupt politician I met the same gang member and he invited me to a drink in the usually restricted upstairs area. Both of these moments were fantastic and made me wish that more of the game was like that.

On a related, if milder, note, I feel like the game would benefit greatly from either deactivating or greatly limiting map icons and quest markers. The former has a tendency to make side quests feel like a chore to be crossed off a checklist, rather than something to stumble upon during exploration, the latter often feels like its actively undermining the level design. As I already wrote: The level design is fundamentally pretty good in the choices it offers the players. Accordingly, not only marking quest targets, but also showing a handholdy yellow line in the mini map showing you exactly which way to go is what we critics like to call "Annoying as fuck." The game actually got better once I stopped paying attention to it and actively explore the games environments. Actually made me appreciate things like ambient dialogue and environmental storytelling, both of which they really went out of their way to include.

Now, this is an RPG, so let's talk about the story. As I've already mentioned, it does a fantastic job with characters and the more emotional side of the story telling. I cared about V and Johnny, I cared about most of the supporting cast. It's the actual plot that often feels a bit thematically unambitious. One of the writers did mention that they wanted to tell a smaller scale story, in which you don't save the world. And indeed you don't. Matter of fact, all the signs are pointing to the world of Cyberpunk 2077 being well beyond saving. but its treatment of many of the themes it does address, transhumanism, immortality, crime, corporations as powerful political entities, social decay. It's not that the game isn't about something, it's that it treats the things its about as something to be picked up and dropped as soon as something else comes along. Some of it feels rushed. Early on in the story there is a montage covering a time period of 6 months that could and should have been part of the main quest. The endgame seems to arrive just a little bit too abruptly. And while the game has a number of different finale's, one of them feels considerable better fleshed out than the other ones. And it's arguably the worst one. It's not a bad story. Matter of fact, it's a pretty solid one. But here and there it just needed a bit more. More interaction with various characters and factions, more quests to really settle into its pacing, more context. The way it is it just doesn't quite do itself justice.

Ignoring a still noticeable need for additional polish for a game that was obviously rushed to release ready for the holiday season, Cyberpunk 2077 is definitely a very good game. Please feel free to read that in a slightly patronizing tone because, let me be clear here: After all the time, money and work that went into it, it better be. Despite that, it can't be denied that there is still unrealized potential in it and that major aspects of the quest design fall short of other games its hard not to compare it to. To be fair, there are things that simply should be put in perspective. Like, for example, that there is not exactly an abundance of genuinely good open world action RPGs and god knows, Cyberpunk is still miles ahead of a modern Bethesda or BioWare title. It doesn't quite live up to the crowning achievements of the genre but at the very least it makes an honest attempt to challenge them. Much like Vampire: Bloodlines its wearing its difficult development on its sleeves and much like that game I see a chance some of its yet dormant potential will the realized through long term developer and fan support. I am eager to see how Cyberpunk will evolve throughout the upcoming year and I'm already looking forward to revisiting it. For all the problems I have with it, it was an enjoyable and memorable experience for all the 80 hours I've played it. There is a difference between a game having fundamental flaws and a game having obvious missed opportunities and while CP2077 has more than a few of the latter it hardly has any of the former, at least presuming technical issues will be adressed in time. Of course there are no excuses for the infamously botched console release, much less refusing to even show off the game on base last gen consoles. I have nothing but sympathy for the people demanding a refund after buying what is in many obvious way an inferior product to that shown in pre release footage. However, having played it on a High End PC I got what I expected and what I expected was a really good game.
 
Last edited:

Gergar12

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 24, 2020
3,762
846
118
Country
United States
So, I wasn't going to get this for a while until the game was in a fixed state. However, my brother got it for me for Christmas and seeing as I'd like to play it, does it actually work on a standard PS4 now or should I give it a few months?
Well with the 1.06 the game is so much better than it was 1.00, I would personally get it. But there are areas where there are frame rate drops and glitches are still common. There is no pain in waiting.