Neil Druckman tries to mobilise TLOU 2 fans to vote for it for player choice in The Game Awards Player vote category

[Houseman]

The other thing is, Druckmann sought out Halley Gross as narrative lead for TLoU2, so the notion of being against women over the Hennig thing is without merit.

Not women in general, just strong, independent women who aren't totally on-board with the whole social justice thing. The "right" women.

 

[Hades]

Can't you make this argument the other way? That people who are arguing about crunch are actually NOT mad about it but about something else (like the voice thing in cyberpunk) but are using crunch as an excuse to attack someone they'd want to attack even if they didn't do crunch, but would not seem legitimate in doing so.

Would you have an example of that? The ones I see arguing about crunch in Cyberpunk are the same ones who always make the case that crunch is horrible. If anything it would really undermine their own credibility if they stopped criticizing crunch just because Cyberpunk is a high quality and much hyped release rather than your run of the mill AAA game.

Someone like Jim Sterling would definitely have a lot of strong opinions on ''the voice thing'' but he's also consistently been against crunch for years. He didn't even make an exception for TLOU2 which is firmly on his political side.

Sure you can make the argument but I've yet to see a left leaning pundit who typically doesn't care about crunch specifically bring it up to criticize a game without having to talk about ''the voice stuff''. Actually those left leaning pundits in generally aren't at all shy about bringing such matters up normally so why would they need to bring up crunch now?

 

[Dreiko]

Would you have an example of that? The ones I see arguing about crunch in Cyberpunk are the same ones who always make the case that crunch is horrible. If anything it would really undermine their own credibility if they stopped criticizing crunch just because Cyberpunk is a high quality and much hyped release rather than your run of the mill AAA game.

Someone like Jim Sterling would definitely have a lot of strong opinions on ''the voice thing'' but he's also consistently been against crunch for years. He didn't even make an exception for TLOU2 which is firmly on his political side.

Sure you can make the argument but I've yet to see a left leaning pundit who typically doesn't care about crunch specifically bring it up to criticize a game without having to talk about ''the voice stuff''. Actually those left leaning pundits in generally aren't at all shy about bringing such matters up normally so why would they need to bring up crunch now?

I think your misunderstanding here is the whole "left wing pundit" thing. I was never talking about that. I was, like the post I was quoting, referring to the broader "bunch of people" who were expressing this sentiment. I was not limiting the purview of my comment to just the handful of most loud proponents against crunch, who I am sure are actually genuine about that.


I was talking to the dozens of generic mimics of that sentiment, who are people that were looking for an excuse to be against this game because it offends them, but without actually saying that that's why.

I'm sure Schrier who has devoted chunks of his career to follow this stuff is actually genuine about that but most people who now all of a sudden care about it didn't seem to mind it when it was occurring in the last of us 2, which is the point.

 

[MrCalavera]

The crunch justifiers found a new ally in... a guy that made Duke Nukem Forever?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The crunch justifiers found a new ally in... a guy that made Duke Nukem Forever?

The AUDACITY of that guy

 

[BrawlMan]

The crunch justifiers found a new ally in... a guy that made Duke Nukem Forever?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

The crunch justifiers found a new ally in... a guy that made Duke Nukem Forever?

Another thing is it seems a lot of these WW’s workplace warriors seem to aim criticism at the studios themselves when it’s really the culture of the publishers, and often even the industry to a greater extent. I can understand why Jason Schrier has frustrated several of Sony’s first party leads. It’s kinda like castigating the car driver for bad track conditions.

 

[Hades]

I think your misunderstanding here is the whole "left wing pundit" thing. I was never talking about that. I was, like the post I was quoting, referring to the broader "bunch of people" who were expressing this sentiment. I was not limiting the purview of my comment to just the handful of most loud proponents against crunch, who I am sure are actually genuine about that.


I was talking to the dozens of generic mimics of that sentiment, who are people that were looking for an excuse to be against this game because it offends them, but without actually saying that that's why.

I'm sure Schrier who has devoted chunks of his career to follow this stuff is actually genuine about that but most people who now all of a sudden care about it didn't seem to mind it when it was occurring in the last of us 2, which is the point.

Do you think your view might be colored by your antipathy towards that group? Because whether its pundits or just posters its mostly the same.

I think the big misconception you have is that you seem to think this group would even try looking for more ''legitimate'' reasons to hate on the game after it offends them. That is not how these people (be they posters or pundits) typically behave. They believe things like transphobia or lack of representation are already extremely legitimate complaints against a game and they are absolutely not shy about it. Their insistence that these things are not just legitimate complaints but extremely important topics to talk about is exactly why their opponents hate them so much and why they occasionally go a bit too far and lose the mainstream.

Someone who believes Cyberpunk is transphobic wouldn't seek for a more ''respectable'' complaint to attack the game on. They would already consider the transphobia problem an extremely respectable complaint. They would heavily criticize cyberpunk on that complaint alone rather than find the need to try and attack it on a less controversial talking point.

Its also important to consider that there may by overlap, and that such overlap is in fact extremely likely. Say what you will about the woke crowd but they seem sincere in their support for the downtrodden. Its why they so often support sexual minorities who are only rarely ever considered by society, and if they are considered its usually in very negative forms. Its why they tend to be more economically left wing in terms of healthcare and social safety net that might help the poor and why they feel the need to speak up for racial minorities that have traditionally gotten the short end of the stick. Opposing crunch is just a continuation of that. If you already support groups that are struggling like the poor or the oppressed then its fairly easy to also extend that support to game designers who are traditionally overworked and underpaid, something crunch exacerbates to extreme forms. Its a complaint that fits in pretty naturally with complaints about transphobia rather than being an alternative to such complaints.

 

[Dreiko]

Do you think your view might be colored by your antipathy towards that group? Because whether its pundits or just posters its mostly the same.

I think the big misconception you have is that you seem to think this group would even try looking for more ''legitimate'' reasons to hate on the game after it offends them. That is not how these people (be they posters or pundits) typically behave. They believe things like transphobia or lack of representation are already extremely legitimate complaints against a game and they are absolutely not shy about it. Their insistence that these things are not just legitimate complaints but extremely important topics to talk about is exactly why their opponents hate them so much and why they occasionally go a bit too far and lose the mainstream.

Someone who believes Cyberpunk is transphobic wouldn't seek for a more ''respectable'' complaint to attack the game on. They would already consider the transphobia problem an extremely respectable complaint. They would heavily criticize cyberpunk on that complaint alone rather than find the need to try and attack it on a less controversial talking point.

Its also important to consider that there may by overlap, and that such overlap is in fact extremely likely. Say what you will about the woke crowd but they seem sincere in their support for the downtrodden. Its why they so often support sexual minorities who are only rarely ever considered by society, and if they are considered its usually in very negative forms. Its why they tend to be more economically left wing in terms of healthcare and social safety net that might help the poor and why they feel the need to speak up for racial minorities that have traditionally gotten the short end of the stick. Opposing crunch is just a continuation of that. If you already support groups that are struggling like the poor or the oppressed then its fairly easy to also extend that support to game designers who are traditionally overworked and underpaid, something crunch exacerbates to extreme forms. Its a complaint that fits in pretty naturally with complaints about transphobia rather than being an alternative to such complaints.

I understand that, I also happen to notice, however, that people are trying to shield themselves from criticism, oftentimes internal criticism, by employing the trusted ole sour grapes tacting of "well, this game is transphobic and....and it's not a good game anyways!!!" as a way of assuaging their own thoughts in the back of their mind that make them aware that they're missing out.


And no, they're not out for the downtrodden, they're out for a specific subgroup of the downtrodden that they can support as they act in furthering of their overall political narrative. If you have white folks being downtrodden in south africa or gays downtrodden in islamist countries or if black people are removed from starwars posters in China cause they hate black people there that's all not something they take up arms over but if some polish game lets you have a manly voice and treats you like a man THAT is what you take issue with? Please.


Oh and I'm totally economically left wing too. I just don't care for the cultural marxist stuff. Help people on an economic metric based on their financial situation and needs. If it happens to help more people of certain groups or of others is of no concern to me. I'm for universal help to everyone equally.

Crunch is a different issue because I know what it's like to be super passionate about something and not caring if you have to sacrifice something to get your creation done. Also you're not forced to work there. And I support, say, some kinda financial support to people who quit because of crunch-like conditions on top of the regular one everyone gets, so it's not like I have some issue with helping people who are actually being exploited. I just don't care to damn everything made in this situation because I respect people's decision to tough it out enough to not substitute my judgement over theirs and force them to believe they're being exploited when they may not see it this way.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Another win

Press Start’s GOTY 2020 #1 - The Last Of Us Part II

Press Start’s GOTY 2020 #1 - The Last Of Us Part II

press-start.com.au

 

[Gyrobot]

Another win

Press Start’s GOTY 2020 #1 - The Last Of Us Part II

Press Start’s GOTY 2020 #1 - The Last Of Us Part II

press-start.com.au

A well deserved win imo

 

[BrawlMan]

Another win

Press Start’s GOTY 2020 #1 - The Last Of Us Part II

Press Start’s GOTY 2020 #1 - The Last Of Us Part II

press-start.com.au

Wow another award from misery porn. Not even a little impressed. By the way, that vitriol is not pointed at you. Just want to give you a heads up. Couldn't care less, because as far as I'm concerned Neil didn't earn anything; especially with him treating his employees like crap with all the crunch. The only thing he cares about is accolades and nothing else. Last of us part 2 is already dead and yesterday's news. I move forward to the exciting things 2021 is going to bring gaming wise.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The only thing he cares about is accolades and nothing else.

That seems a little presumptious.

Also, can we stop attributing all the crunch over at Naughty Dog to Druckmann, because there was crunch there before even the first TLoU. Amy Henning was likely responsible for just as much crunch as Druckmann was. There was also massive crunch on The Lost Legacy, which Druckman had very little to do with. Not saying he shouldn't be brought to task for the actions that lead to worker mistreatement going on over there, but placing it on just him is letting off other people who were just as responsible. Like the actual heads of the studio.

Not trying to get too much on your case over this, but there seems to be this rabid hatred toward Druckmann regarding crunch like he invented it or something. But the guy is just another cog in this machine. Many games that came out this year that are held up as shining examples compared to TLoU2 probably suffered from crunch too.

 

[BrawlMan]

That seems a little presumptious.

Also, can we stop attributing all the crunch over at Naughty Dog to Druckmann, because there was crunch there before even the first TLoU. Amy Henning was likely responsible for just as much crunch as Druckmann was. There was also massive crunch on The Lost Legacy, which Druckman had very little to do with. Not saying he shouldn't be brought to task for the actions that lead to worker mistreatement going on over there, but placing it on just him is letting off other people who were just as responsible. Like the actual heads of the studio.

Not trying to get too much on your case over this, but there seems to be this rabid hatred toward Druckmann regarding crunch like he invented it or something. But the guy is just another cog in this machine. Many games that came out this year that are held up as shining examples compared to TLoU2 probably suffered from crunch too.

I meant Naughty dog too by the way with the crunch. Google speak missed that one for some reason I didn't bother to recheck it. And yes I know there are several others that do crunch too. I'm calling them out as well. Doesn't mean they deserve awards either. While he may be another cog in the machine, Niel didn't do much to help his case. Nor am I going to cry nor hold much sympathy for him. Like I said before, the game is yesterday's news. I'll continue not buying any of Naughty Dog's games.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I meant Naughty dog too by the way with the crunch. Google speak missed that one for some reason I didn't bother to recheck it. And yes I know there are several others that do crunch too. I'm calling them out as well. Doesn't mean they deserve awards either. While he may be another call in the machine he didn't do much to help his case. Nor am I going to cry or hold much sympathy for him. Like I said before, the game is yesterday's news. I'll continue not buying any of Naughty Dog's games.

It's good that the outcry has become louder, I just don't want Naughty Dog/Druckmann to become almost the sole targets of it, allowing other perpetrators to skate by unnoticed.

Also, considering Naughty Dog and Druckmann are kinda on the gaming community's shitlist, it's easy to dunk on them for the crunch. But in the wake of that you could already see once CDProjekt Red got a just a hint of flak over crunch (before the whole shitshow went live) the same gamers got SUPER protective and dismissive over the claims. Animators in every industry are generally treated like complete shit with most people never taking notice, and hasn't it become almost a joke now that Sakurai needs to hook himself onto an i.v. to finish up the next Smash?

Likeability makes stuff like this easy to dismiss/ignore, but it shouldn't just be the hateable studios and people that get called upon. And that's not just regarding crunch.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Wow another award from misery porn. Not even a little impressed. By the way, that vitriol is not pointed at you. Just want to give you a heads up. Couldn't care less, because as far as I'm concerned Neil didn't earn anything; especially with him treating his employees like crap with all the crunch. The only thing he cares about is accolades and nothing else. Last of us part 2 is already dead and yesterday's news. I move forward to the exciting things 2021 is going to bring gaming wise.

Druckmann is Druckmann, but I’m also thinking about the hundreds of other people at Naughty Dog, as well as the dozen other studios they outsourced to making the game. They deserve their due recognition and accolades for the sacrifices needed to make the game too.

 

[Hades]

But in the wake of that you could already see once CDProjekt Red got a just a hint of flak over crunch (before the whole shitshow went live) the same gamers got SUPER protective and dismissive over the claims.

Until it turned out Cyberpunk wasn't very good. Then the crunch suddenly got acceptable to discuss again.

 

[BrawlMan]

Also, considering Naughty Dog and Druckmann are kinda on the gaming community's shitlist, it's easy to dunk on them for the crunch. But in the wake of that you could already see once CDProjekt Red got a just a hint of flak over crunch (before the whole shitshow went live) the same gamers got SUPER protective and dismissive over the claims. Animators in every industry are generally treated like complete shit with most people never taking notice, and hasn't it become almost a joke now that Sakurai needs to hook himself onto an i.v. to finish up the next Smash?

I've had my suspicions with CDPR since 2017 when the crunch rumors started coming out. I more or less said I was not going to get the game if it turns out to be the case. All of this was back on the V1 Forum. I am aware of how animators are treated in nearly every industry. As for Sakurai, him and team clearly care about their projects, and each other to get the job done. These are people that love everything about gaming considering the legacy and celebration of all these iconic characters. Nintendo generally treats their employees fine without the crunch bullshit. Though they've had their moments from time to time of treating developers like shit. See the story behind Project Hammer (a 3D brawler that was going to be a launch line up for the Wii) and why it was cancelled. if you can find it.

​

It's the fans I worry more at times. Nintendo (mainly the higher ups) that treat them like a garbage and open contempt, because of their stubborn, our old ways are the best and only way and nothing else matters.

They deserve their due recognition and accolades for the sacrifices needed to make the game too.

Exactly.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I've had my suspicions with CDPR since 2017 when the crunch rumors started coming out. I more or less said I was not going to get the game if it turns out to be the case. All of this was back on the V1 Forum. I am aware of how animators are treated in nearly every industry. As for Sakurai, him and team clearly care about their projects, and each other to get the job done. These are people that love everything about gaming considering the legacy and celebration of all these iconic characters. Nintendo generally treats their employees fine without the crunch bullshit. Though they've had their moments from time to time of treating developers like shit. See the story behind Project Hammer (a 3D brawler that was going to be a launch line up for the Wii) and why it was cancelled. if you can find it.

Japanese companies don't really talk about crunch because crunch isn't a thing there, that's just their normal work week. Their companies basically run on crunch all the time because Japanese views on work are atrocious by default.

How many other countries have "overwork" as a high ranked cause of death?

Any game that you play from a Japanese company can be pre-supposed to have been made in crunch. It's just that crunch is a complete industry standard over there so it's not something that their workers actually complain about because that's how every Japanese company is run by default.

 

[BrawlMan]

Japanese companies don't really talk about crunch because crunch isn't a thing there, that's just their normal work week. Their companies basically run on crunch all the time because Japanese views on work are atrocious by default.

How many other countries have "overwork" as a high ranked cause of death?

Any game that you play from a Japanese company can be pre-supposed to have been made in crunch. It's just that crunch is a complete industry standard over there so it's not something that their workers actually complain about because that's how every Japanese company is run by default.

Thanks for the info, but @Casual Shinji already covered this for me back in the LOUS 2 Review Thread. Thank you, though.