This is What Happens When a Videogame Leaks

[Dreiko]

Even if a game leaks you still have the agency to not read what has leaked. Like for example, I have no idea what particularly occurs in the new last of us game. Only that it's an effect of them adhering to SJW mindsets epitomized by the head's respect for lord Anita and that people are mad.


People aren't obligated to look up this stuff just because a game leaks. To pretend everyone automatically will know what happens is fallacious.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

The first example given...Downward Thrust? I genuinely do not recognize that name at all. I saw that, and my brain read Down Is Not UP, which I think was my brain warping it to Up Is Not Jump? maybe? But yeah, I have zero recollection of Downward Thrust at all, that name, if it did pass my eyeballs when skimming YT recommendations, had zero retention capacity with me. CleanPriceGaming is a name I recognize, but I mean, it's like one of dozens of titles that I don't register at all when skimming youtube. I don't really browse the suggestions too much to be honest. I drill down for specific things and that's really it. Yes they technically appear on my screen on the right side, but I don't actually ever really pass my eyeballs over them all that often, because I've learned that what YT suggests to me, is usually shit, and I don't really need to check there.

The CleanPrince guy was far more infamous. They were both around at exactly the same time and seemed to have disappeared similarly too. I just did a Youtube search and the CleanPrince guy is still doing game videos but it's kinda funny that quite a few of the top search results are videos about how bad the channel is.

 

[Houseman]

That's not a fair detail to put on the game though. You might get that game and love every moment of the gameplay, and only end up upset about the story because of the treatment of the main character in the end, but it doesn't invalidate the rest of the game. And a leak of such a detail certainly shouldn't impact your feeling about playing the game because context matters.

I think what I said earlier is the crucial part: "How many people would go back in time and tell themselves not to purchase a game or pay for a movie ticket? How many people regret seeing the final season of Game of Thrones, or the new Star Wars trilogy, or anything else that was bad? "

The determining factor should be "if you could go back in time and stop yourself from buying this, would you?"

But you're right, maybe one plot point doesn't completely ruin the game for you. Maybe the rest of it is an amazing experience that you don't regret having, and you would have missed out if you dismissed the entire thing based off of one leaked plot point that you saw out of context.

Maybe. Or maybe something is so bad and damaging to the lore that it retroactively ruins the entire experience and every other experience you've ever had with the franchise. Like if it was revealed that the Jedis trace their lineage back to Hitler or something. Just imagine if that were true, and if it was leaked before the release of the next Star Wars movie. Ain't nobody would be making the "see it in context!" argument then.

 

[happyninja42]

The CleanPrince guy was far more infamous. They were both around at exactly the same time and seemed to have disappeared similarly too. I just did a Youtube search and the CleanPrince guy is still doing game videos but it's kinda funny that quite a few of the top search results are videos about how bad the channel is.

Doesn't really surprise me really, there is a fairly incestuous nature to the YT "critique" business. Where entire channels rise and fall simply by talking shit about the stuff the other channel did. Reaction to his reaction of my reaction to his review of X, which spins off to other content creators tossing their 2 cents in, and then getting referenced as well in the thing, and you've suddenly got like 20+ videos of content that basically boil down to a bunch of people arguing back and forth at each other in a one-way format. Be sure to like comment and subscribe! And I'll toss more shit at them next week! Because that's 75% of my viewership!

It's just...bleh.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I think what I said earlier is the crucial part: "How many people would go back in time and tell themselves not to purchase a game or pay for a movie ticket? How many people regret seeing the final season of Game of Thrones, or the new Star Wars trilogy, or anything else that was bad? "

The determining factor should be "if you could go back in time and stop yourself from buying this, would you?"

But you're right, maybe one plot point doesn't completely ruin the game for you. Maybe the rest of it is an amazing experience that you don't regret having, and you would have missed out if you dismissed the entire thing based off of one leaked plot point that you saw out of context.

Maybe. Or maybe something is so bad and damaging to the lore that it retroactively ruins the entire experience and every other experience you've ever had with the franchise. Like if it was revealed that the Jedis trace their lineage back to Hitler or something. Just imagine if that were true, and if it was leaked before the release of the next Star Wars movie. Ain't nobody would be making the "see it in context!" argument then.

Yeah you have a point. But I always find it funny how people keep bitching about things like how shitty the Star Wars movies are and then flock off to the theater in costume to see each new release anyway.

I imagine TLOU2 will be much the same thing. I mean....I'm gonna get it and I'm gonna review it on these forums in a desperate attempt to get the Escapist Magazine to like me.

People will be upset about what was leaked and generally not like the direction the game has seemingly gone, but the first game was great and people will still probably go out and play this one. Those who skip this game specifically due to the leaks, I would predict, are going to be few.

 

[happyninja42]

Maybe. Or maybe something is so bad and damaging to the lore that it retroactively ruins the entire experience and every other experience you've ever had with the franchise. Like if it was revealed that the Jedis trace their lineage back to Hitler or something. Just imagine if that were true, and if it was leaked before the release of the next Star Wars movie. Ain't nobody would be making the "see it in context!" argument then.

I wouldn't really care if they were traced back to Hitler, because genetic history has no bearing on what someone does in their actual life. You're basically talking about Ancestral Guilt, and that's just silly. Yes I know you are just using an extreme example, but I think people take WAY too much importance in this stuff. Saying things like "this one detail has ruined the ENTIRE franchise for me." is just really extreme behavior. It doesn't make the feelings you had as a kid not there anymore, it can't go back in time and make them bad. It's just one detail, that doesn't really fit well, maybe it makes no sense, but is really only important if it's something you obsess over. Besides Star Wars already did have "you're descended from Hitler" plot element, in the original series, and in the new one. So that's not really out of character, especially given the WW 2 inspiration for most of the imagery in the franchise.

Michael Bay's Transformer films doesn't retroactively make 8 year old me not cry when Optimus died in the transformers movie, it doesn't make me now hate that film because "all I think about is what MB did to it!" They are separate things.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Doesn't really surprise me really, there is a fairly incestuous nature to the YT "critique" business. Where entire channels rise and fall simply by talking shit about the stuff the other channel did. Reaction to his reaction of my reaction to his review of X, which spins off to other content creators tossing their 2 cents in, and then getting referenced as well in the thing, and you've suddenly got like 20+ videos of content that basically boil down to a bunch of people arguing back and forth at each other in a one-way format. Be sure to like comment and subscribe! And I'll toss more shit at them next week! Because that's 75% of my viewership!

It's just...bleh.

Yeah, I rarely get into that kinda stuff. I remember I just watched 1 or 2 of his videos and I'm like this dude is a total bullshitter, then saw that there was a video showing he didn't even play the games he would talk about and gave it a watch. That's about as far as I've ever gone down the whole "drama" hole.

 

[Houseman]

I wouldn't really care if they were traced back to Hitler, because genetic history has no bearing on what someone does in their actual life.

In my hypothetical "fanfic", they're not tracing their lineage back to Hitler because they're interested in genealogy. It's because they actually revere him, and are trying to carry out their interpretation of his vision. It would be like a Hail Hydra sort of scenario, where you thought that the good guys were actually the bad guys all along!

So no, it wouldn't just be "ancestral guilt" in my hypothetical Star Wars twist.

Saying things like "this one detail has ruined the ENTIRE franchise for me." is just really extreme behavior.

I don't disagree, but it's also one's right. An individual determines where they draw the line and what they do or don't like. Nobody gets to select how "extremely" their audience behaves. So, going back to my original post... What reason does the publisher/director/dev have to be upset? That people have their own arbitrary standards and that their art didn't meet those standards?

 

[happyninja42]

In my hypothetical "fanfic", they're not tracing their lineage back to Hitler because they're interested in genealogy. It's because they actually revere him, and are trying to carry out their interpretation of his vision. It would be like a Hail Hydra sort of scenario, where you thought that the good guys were actually the bad guys all along!

So no, it wouldn't just be "ancestral guilt" in my hypothetical Star Wars twist.

That still doesn't make the previous material bad by association. Because anyone who is thinking rationally, and not having kneejerk fanboy rage-fits, should be able to understand that the one thing is an abnormality. And while yes, it would be really dumb, and negatively impact the franchise going forward, to say "it's killed all the feelings I have for all of it, even the stuff before this person took the helm." That's just irrational. I GET that it's a very human reaction, but that's not the same as it being a GOOD reaction, or one that should be encouraged. In your Hitler Jedi franchise example, yeah disliking that would be reasonable, saying it contradicts the established lore, also reasonable. Doing stuff like making a YT video of you burning all your SW merch in protest, and saying things like "this killed my childhood." well, frankly you should be OUT of your childhood by now, you are an adult, act like it. Just stop liking the franchise from that point forward, but still enjoy the previous parts. Be like "yeah, that Hitler Jedi plot line that Houseman did was fucking nuts, no doubt, but the original stuff is still really good. Since it clearly has nothing to do with whatever crack that Houseman guy was smoking when he wrote his screenplay."

I don't disagree, but it's also one's right. An individual determines where they draw the line and what they do or don't like. Nobody gets to select how "extremely" their audience behaves. So, going back to my original post... What reason does the publisher/director/dev have to be upset? That people have their own arbitrary standards and that their art didn't meet those standards?

Yeah but the creator isn't under any obligation to meet the, sometimes irrational standards, of the fanbase. Because frankly it's impossible for them to do that for everyone. The "you can't please everybody" addage. So yeah, sure, people have the individual right to be upset something doesn't meet their standards. But THEY aren't the standard makers for those producing it. Disney isn't obligated to ask NeckbeardGamerGuy29 if he thinks their script for the next Marvel film is "up to his standards". They can make what they want. And yes NeckbeardGamerGuy29 is within his right to be mad about it. But my personal issue, is the level of insane investment that is on display these days for this stuff. A lot of people out there, use their frustration over a single plot element in a book/movie/game, as justification to just go spewing toxic bile for all the world to see, and to hell with whoever they might injure with their behavior, because "Disney made R2D2 a Lesbian!!" or whatever thing makes them lose their shit. It's not cool, it's not ok, and while it is something they are "free" to do, it doesn't mean it should be tolerated in society. They should be called out for their behavior. Not like it will actually DO anything, because they have their entire self identity (and possibly job if they are a content provider on YT or whatever) invested in this franchise. So they will keep doing it, especially when it gets them likes, comments and subscribes.

.......ok so, wow yeah that's a huge tangent for a thread about a game that I don't really care about, getting leaked. Yeah it's somewhat relevant but, yeah I'm done now. Carry on.

 

[Adam Jensen]

That just tells me you know very little about game development. Making games is a process, it's not just here's our plan and lets execute it.

Essentially just like everything else.

I know enough about game development to know that more often than not games are developed under extremely bad management. And it appears to be the only entertainment industry where bad management is a norm rather than an anomaly. Things change, I get it. It's not a hard concept to grasp. But that's hardly a justification for the level of secrecy. The length that some devs go to in order to "protect" even the slightest bit of info about their upcoming game is absolutely mental. It serves no practical purpose whatsoever.

Why should change be a "problem" that needs to be addressed? Projects change all the time. That's not inherently a bad thing.

Change isn't the problem. It's a symptom. If we're talking about a AAA game, the game must be released at a certain date. If you mismanage the project so much that the entire vision of the project is at risk and you have to scrap half the game midway through, you're now stuck having to work extra hard to meet the deadline. How many games have been rushed to release because of this? How many features had to be cut from how many games and how absolutely obvious it was that those features should have been in the game? If you're designing something as complex as a video game, you absolutely must have a clear vision of what you want the end product to be and you should know how to get there.

 

[Gordon_4]

Essentially just like everything else.

I know enough about game development to know that more often than not games are developed under extremely bad management. And it appears to be the only entertainment industry where bad management is a norm rather than an anomaly. Things change, I get it. It's not a hard concept to grasp. But that's hardly a justification for the level of secrecy. The length that some devs go to in order to "protect" even the slightest bit of info about their upcoming game is absolutely mental. It serves no practical purpose whatsoever.


Change isn't the problem. It's a symptom. If we're talking about a AAA game, the game must be released at a certain date. If you mismanage the project so much that the entire vision of the project is at risk and you have to scrap half the game midway through, you're now stuck having to work extra hard to meet the deadline. How many games have been rushed to release because of this? How many features had to be cut from how many games and how absolutely obvious it was that those features should have been in the game? If you're designing something as complex as a video game, you absolutely must have a clear vision of what you want the end product to be and you should know how to get there.

Have you never worked on any project, creative or otherwise? Requirements update, circumstances alter and sometimes a vision is pursued to the logical conclusion that it is untenable and whole projects can become scrapped halfway through. The old army saying “No plan survives first contact with the enemy” is a one way to distill the concept.

You cannot expect any endeavour - especially a creative one - to be rigid and unchanging as it goes on. For example the differences between the initial draft of Star Wars and what gobsmacked a generation in 1977 is amazing.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You cannot expect any endeavour - especially a creative one - to be rigid and unchanging as it goes on. For example the differences between the initial draft of Star Wars and what gobsmacked a generation in 1977 is amazing.

But how much extraneous stuff did they film with effects that was left on the cutting room floor? There was like a decade(s?) of Superman rewrites trying to get a new Superman movie after the last Reeve one, but I doubt there was a single scene even filmed. Listening to video game development and how much wasted work occurs is pretty unfathomable at times like how Bioware employees didn't even know what the fuck game they were making with regards to Anthem. There's the whole story of Duke Nukem Forever as well. Just hearing Neil Druckmann talk about TLOU2 development is pretty puzzling and that's supposed to be stuff that sells you on how awesome the game is going to be and I'm left thinking that the game could end up being a mess (this is prior to all the leaks and everything). They had the story set 4 years ago (yeah, there's some things you'll want to change) but how is your scope growing and growing, didn't you storyboard it? Why do you need more and more locations? Why are there side quests in the game? Uncharted 4's open areas actively work against what Uncharted is about as a game for example, all those areas just made development longer when actively hurting the game. Even prior to Uncharted 4, the games were made where they just made levels they thought were cool and then they had to somehow tie them all together, how is that a good way of developing a game? In Uncharted 3, Naughty Dog, simulated an ocean for ship levels that don't make a lick of sense.

 

[Hawki]

Which is yet another problem that should be addressed.

Why is that a problem? Lots of things change in development - books have rewrites, films have reshoots, music will be re-composed, etc.

Here's a scenario:

Let's say that there's a consumer who thinks "I won't buy this game if it has X in it"
Then a leak comes out which confirms that X is in the game.

If the leak never came out, the consumer would have bought the game, found X in it, and regretted their purchase.
But since the leak did come out, the consumer never purchased the game.

Is anyone justified in being upset in this scenario?

It really depends on what "X" is.

Since people are using The Last of Us 2 as an example, if someone says "I won't buy this game if it has gay romance in it" (which it does), then that says a lot more about the person than anything else.

On the flipside, if they say "I won't buy this game if it has microtransactions in it," then that's a different matter, especially since TLOU is a P2P singleplayer-focused game, so having microtransactions would be pretty dubious.

 

[Houseman]

It really depends on what "X" is.

Since people are using The Last of Us 2 as an example, if someone says "I won't buy this game if it has gay romance in it" (which it does), then that says a lot more about the person than anything else.

On the flipside, if they say "I won't buy this game if it has microtransactions in it," then that's a different matter, especially since TLOU is a P2P singleplayer-focused game, so having microtransactions would be pretty dubious.

That sounds like gatekeeping what it means to be a consumer, and what is or isn't a valid reason to consume something. Are there invalid reasons not to purchase something?

 

[Hawki]

That sounds like gatekeeping what it means to be a consumer, and what is or isn't a valid reason to consume something. Are there invalid reasons not to purchase something?

What counts as valid is going to vary from person to person, but is it fair to agree that not all reasons are equal?

Since you've got Jim Houseman as your avatar, let's go to Metal Gear. Let's go back to the 90s when Metal Gear Solid came out. Someone asks me if I'm buying the game, and I say no. The person asks me why. Out of the many answers I can give, some include:

a) I don't like stealth games.

b) It's produced by Hideo Kojima, who's Japanese, and I don't like Japanese people

c) It's a Konami game, and I don't like Konami

d) The graphics look terrible

e) I played it at a friend's house and didn't like the game, so I won't be buying it.

What counts as a "valid" reason may vary, but is it controversial to suppose that reason e is the most valid, and reason b is the least valid?

(In case you're wondering, I did play Metal Gear Solid at a friend's house, loved the game myself, and got it myself, and still loved it.)

 

[Ezekiel]

Since people are using The Last of Us 2 as an example, if someone says "I won't buy this game if it has gay romance in it" (which it does), then that says a lot more about the person than anything else.

Almost no one I've seen online has said that. They have a problem with the way it's presented. I think Bound is a very good Wachoski siblings movie, about a lesbian/bi couple who try to rob the mafia, and I also really like Rainer Werner Fassbinder's gay West German movie Fox and His Friends and the Japanese transgender new wave movie Funeral Parade of Roses, but I don't like Druckmann and how much he tries to make a big deal about transgenders and lesbians and make women always appear masculine. It feels so forced and even unrealistic. I don't want to play his woke game.

 

[Hawki]

Almost no one I've seen online has said that. They have a problem with the way it's presented. I think Bound is a very good Wachoski siblings movie, about a lesbian/bi couple who try to rob the mafia, and I also really like Rainer Werner Fassbinder's gay West German movie Fox and His Friends and the Japanese transgender new wave movie Funeral Parade of Roses, but I don't like Druckmann and how much he tries to make a big deal about transgenders and lesbians and make women always appear masculine. It feels so forced and even unrealistic. I don't want to play his woke game.

Okay, maybe you didn't. But when this trailer came out:


People lost their shit. Hell, I've never even followed Last of Us in any real form, but media doesn't exist in a vacuum, and I caught wind of it. And the fourth most recent comment on the video is "the trans of us," despite the fact that neither of the girls are trans.

I can't comment on Druckmann, but I can comment that there's a recurring pattern that anytime there's an LGBT character in a game, there's always some outburst. Frankly, it's tiring, and I thought Ellie was established as being a lesbian in the first game anyway?

 

[Houseman]

What counts as a "valid" reason may vary, but is it controversial to suppose that reason e is the most valid, and reason b is the least valid?

I'd say all are equally valid. There's no wrong way to be a consumer.

I can't comment on Druckmann, but I can comment that there's a recurring pattern that anytime there's an LGBT character in a game, there's always some outburst. Frankly, it's tiring, and I thought Ellie was established as being a lesbian in the first game anyway?

1) There was a gay character in TLoU 1, Bill, and I don't recall that anybody cared. His sexuality wasn't the focal point of the trailer, or anything.

2) Not explicitly. She shared one kiss with her best friend who she thinks is going to go away forever, IIRC. The audience was free to draw their own conclusions on what that meant.

 

[Ezekiel]

Okay, maybe you didn't. But when this trailer came out:


People lost their shit. Hell, I've never even followed Last of Us in any real form, but media doesn't exist in a vacuum, and I caught wind of it. And the fourth most recent comment on the video is "the trans of us," despite the fact that neither of the girls are trans.

I can't comment on Druckmann, but I can comment that there's a recurring pattern that anytime there's an LGBT character in a game, there's always some outburst. Frankly, it's tiring, and I thought Ellie was established as being a lesbian in the first game anyway?

That trailer bothered me too, because the lesbian kiss is the first thing they decided to show, like that was the most important thing in an apocalypse. I can't even think of the last time any other piece of media that wasn't a romance was revealed with something sexual like that, and I don't know why anyone WOULD reveal their product like that unless they were trying to make a big statement. They can claim it's to counter the brutality of what happens after, but it's obvious what the real intention was. If the trailer for The Matrix 4 opened with a long, drawn out kiss between Neo and Trinity, I would roll my eyes so hard.

Ellie was never established as lesbian in the first game. It was only in the DLC eight months later that we were shown she likes girls a girl. Even then, it wasn't implied that she didn't like boys or that it was sexual.

 

[Houseman]

Also, as with the Overwatch "____ is gay now!" I found examples of LGBT gamers making the same sorts of complaints about forced diversity and pandering, so before anyone says that only straight gamers make these arguments, out of prejudice or homophobia or whatever, let's nip that in the bud.