So Biden-Haters: why Trump over Biden?

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
No, both sides are shit. Just because I don't have any faith in Biden doesn't mean I'm endorsing Trump.

You're arguing that Biden is going to do the right thing because his constituents want him to do the right thing, and I disagree. I think that's incredibly naive. History is littered with broken campaign promises, and this is another one.

Scratch that, this isn't even a campaign promise. Biden has been wishy washy on the subject in every way. You're just putting the words you want to hear in his mouth because you really want a reason to actually want to vote for him.
You are deciding to be a passive observer who wants to make sure everyone knows their voice doesn't count.
 

crimson5pheonix

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So I see, wow then that means that Bernie must have never lied about anything, oh wait.
How very relevant when talking about Biden, and when you asked about Biden. And were shown what was wrong with Biden. And with how Sanders was part of this conversation.

Does this negate the original point that you're trusting a serial liar who's now campaigning on the opposite of his positions?
 
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lil devils x

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There are a LOT of things that I want but right now, there is one priority with a bullet for what I want if Biden wants my vote

Medicare for All

I'd feel dirty but I would vote for Biden if he gave that one concession. Lots of other concessions I want as well but as someone going through the medical meat grinder right now, this is non-negotiable for me. Our Health Care system is so absolutely fucked right now and someone wanting to do some half-assed patch work job like making Medicare eligibility to 55 or 65 or whatever age he tossed out there is not nearly good enough and I'm sick of being told every election that THIS one is too important to let "Insert Republican Opponent Here" win but NEXT time we'll totally work on the issues that you want to work on!

If Biden is going to insist that he would veto M4A if it came across his desk, then I will still go out and vote Progressives down the ballot but I'll throw my vote to a third for presidency if he won't even consider M4A or some kind of complete health care overhaul
I have been pushing for M4A harder than probably anyone on this forum, however, It would not matter if we elected Bernie or Warren as president, it still would not happen in the next 4 years due to the conservative gains in congress and the current makeup of the supreme court. The best we can hope for is to keep expanding medicare until we can push it all the way there due to republicans blocking it, and Biden has already agreed to not only expand medicare and is pushing to lower the age but he is also expanding the ACA and medicaid. Which is exactly what we need to have happen in the meantime to get us closer. If we can keep expanding medicare, and medicaid and then combine them together, we will meet our eventual goal of M4A. As long as people keep voting against their own best interests though, as they continue to do in Republican districts, we will not be able to pass anything at all and people will die in the meantime unless we can keep working in "loopholes" into our current system to be able to keep providing the poor with medication and treatment.

Currently, the ACA still has loopholes that are allowing the poor to access Obamacare without paying any monthly premiums. The way my brother does this is he signed up for Blue Cross/ Blue shield on the Healthcare exchange. Because he is currently unemployed, he has his monthly payments deferred to his taxes to be able to take them out of his income tax return at the end of the year Due to his income being too low, he qualifies for the subsidies, so he makes Zero Payments, has been able to see his doctor and have his prescriptions covered under his insurance to where he pays $7 and $10 copays for his medication a month, instead of the hundred's it would have cost him out of pocket without insurance. He is actually paying less than my Mom is for her medicare copays right now. If Trump wins in the fall, the poor will lose this option as he has a case on hold until after the election that is trying to rule the subsidies unconstitutional. Due to having a conservative supreme court, they already ruled forcing states to approve the medicaid expansion in the ACA was unconstitutional so some states were able to reject it and thus why their poor's only option right now in some states is this ACA subsidy loophole that my brother, and millions of others are using right now to have access to the medication they need to stay alive. What people have to understand is if Trump wins a second term, all of the people depending on this will lose their access to their medication and will have no other means and will literally die from this. We need to expand these subsidies to be able to meet full coverage for everyone, rather than remove them as the current GOP senate and white house have promised to do.

To even be able to do the ACA, Medicare, and Medicaid expansion Biden wants to do is going to be one hell of a fight as it is due to Republicans still control the Senate, and the only means the democrats have to gain a majority in either the house or Senate requires having conservative democrats being elected in republican districts. Republicans are doing everything they can to make medicare and medicaid cuts, not expand it and are will fight tooth and nail to block any expansion so it is going to be rough getting enough votes as it is. M4A being popular among the general population does not mean the people in those districts will vote for a M4A candidate due to their "priorities" being skewed. They are more worried about a democrat taking their guns than they are about M4A, they are more worried about making abortion illegal than they are about M4A. They are more worried about some stupid conspiracy they heard than about M4A. That is what it winds up boiling down to in the end in order to take those districts, we have to field candidates that those voters in that district will vote for, and sadly some of these necessary regions are more worried about other issues even if they support M4A. As I listed in the Congressional seats thread, you are not going to get "socialist" candidates elected in the districts we have to win to get a majority, so that still means we will have to take baby steps. Of course I would love to have the luxury to not settle for anything less than exactly what I want, but I will take saving more lives than we are now rather than ensure we lose many more than we are now. The people who are depending on this will not wait another 4 years, they will die before then when Trump removes the subsidies they have now and there are no longer any options available for them to be able to regain access before they run out of the medication they need to survive in the meantime.

In addition, before we can expand medicare, we need to fix it. There is plenty wrong with it that needs to be resolved before we put more people into that system. The lifetime benefits cut off, the monthly premiums, what medicare covers and does not cover, medicare estate recovery programs are all serious issues that are not going to work in a M4A system and should not be there in the first place. We cannot have M4A taking people's homes to recoup costs as it currently does. Those recoup costs issues not being there, however, will necessarily increase costs, and it is still going to be a fight just to fix each part of the problem. We still have to keep people alive WHILE we wait for all of this to happen, as they will not survive the wait, as they literally have no other options to be able to have access to the medications they need today to stay alive and yanking that out from under them means they will not survive while we argue about how to solve the larger issues for years, could be decades at this point because the GOP is still the stronger party right now due to Democrats being many different factions agreeing to band together to get things done, but no single faction int eh democratic party has enough support to beat republicans on their own.

Progressives are not big enough to beat republicans on their own, conservative democrats are not big enough to beat republicans on their own, and the middle of the road democrats are not big enough to beat republicans on their own, so the only option all 3 factions have is to work together and compromise or lose it all and never get anything done ever. If each faction takes the stance, "this way or I'm out", all you accomplish for the foreseeable future is republicans winning and losing the medicare and medicaid we currently have rather than expand it. While democrats cannot agree on what needs to be done and how we do it, Republicans are in agreement that they want to cut medicare, medicare and welfare and would prefer to do away with it all together:

"The parties don’t have the same kinds of differences. Democrats have deep divides over policy. In contrast, Republicans, at both the state and federal levels, are largely unified around an agenda of cutting spending for programs such as Medicaid that are targeted at low income people, defending Americans’ ability to own and Purchase guns ,limiting abortion , and reducing regulations and taxes on businesses. "

So the only options we have at all here is either take the expansions where we can get them or risk losing it all and not being able to get it any of it back because the different factions on the left refuse to compromise and work together to create a united front like Republicans do because each democratic faction wants an " all or nothing" approach to issues. Pushing conservative democrats out of the party just means we lose those conservative district seats to republicans, and give the republicans complete control over both houses and the white house. We do not actually gain anything from it than less numbers in the districts we need them in to be able to obtain a majority. We have a ton of progressives, but unless they move to these conservative districts to flip the seats, they are not doing us much good all piled up in the same areas we already have plenty of them in already. We need enough of them in republican districts to flip them. People have to remember not everyone's vote in the US is equal.

 
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lil devils x

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Trump has been stacking the bench with Judges that will rule Medicare for all, Medicaid expansions, and the ACA subsidies as being unconstitutional, making it very difficult to get anything passed and enacted due to the conservative courts. He has appointed 193 judges thus far, and trying to get as many has he can in before be leaves office. He is picking judges that will rule against medicare, medicaid and the ACA intentionally so that anything democrats do manage to pass will be tied up in the courts for years and likely ruled unconstitutional.

Since it would not let me add these above:


With all the bench stacking we have going on and needing a constitutional amendment to be able to remove Trump's judges. we will likely be stuck with these guys for a lifetime of ruling against M4A unless something seriously changes, and nothing short of a miracle at this point is likely to make it happen fast enough. Nothing EVER happens fast in Washington. What has already been done will take a lifetime to undo as it is. Four more years of him doing what he wants will mean we could lose everything we have already on top of not being able to ever get ahead. Ruth Bader Ginsburg is already 87 years old and she is expected to have to wait another 4 years to retire?
 
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Silvanus

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Does it, though? You're conflating campaign promises with policy outcomes.
Yes, it does. I'm not conflating anything: one would have to be either wilfully ignorant or utterly myopic to believe we should disregard an entire party platform and assume, without a shred of evidence, that they would merely do exactly what their opponent would do.

So, Biden says he'll introduce a public health insurance option & a lower limit on costs. Trump says he'll cut the funding for the existing scheme by 10%. You believe these candidates will do the same thing, & both are as likely as one another to cut it? Nonsense.
 

tippy2k2

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See, I really don't get this. Why are you ok with waiting another 4 years for something rather then getting something that will get you much closer to your goal now? I mean if we get medicare for all and its not quite what you want, we would still have it and things can be added to it.
Easy, I'm sick of being held hostage by Democrats because if we don't vote for them, THE REPUBLICANS!!!!!!111!!!!1!! will come in and kill us all. These have been the tactics of The Democrats ever since I was old enough to vote and I'm done playing that game. They don't have any need or desire to put in policies that I want because if people are going to "Vote Blue No Matter Who" then they have no need to give us what we actually want.

I know others in threads have talked about wanting to see it all burn down so that we can rise from the ashes. I don't want that. I don't want to push everyone to the breaking point where they finally get to a point where they yell enough is enough and go grab the guillotines. But honestly, maybe that is exactly what The Democrats need. I thought 2016 was going to be their wake-up call but somehow not only have they not woken up, they've double downed on the ORANGE MAN BAD rhetoric. They can't even pay lip service and pretend like M4A is something that they would fight for, it's just another campaign cycle of "You HAVE to vote for our candidate or else you're giving TRUMP the White House!!!!".

I have been pushing for M4A harder than probably anyone on this forum, however, It would not matter if we elected Bernie or Warren as president, it still would not happen in the next 4 years due to the conservative gains in congress and the current makeup of the supreme court.
While that is a fair point that it is unlikely to pass through all the phases it needs to (regardless that the vast majority of Americans WANT this), I want a President who would be willing to fight tooth and nail to get it done. I want a President who will at least pretend like he gives a shit that many Americans die because they can't afford to go see a doctor. I want a President who will at least pretend to care that I'm not able to go back to my Neurologist at this point because because I can't keep affording to take these kind of hits to my finances (and I'm a single guy with a good job and relatively good insurance, I can't imagine what this would have been for me if I had kids or people I had to take care of or OK/No Insurance and didn't just have money I could throw but even my funds are becoming exhausted at this point).

if Biden isn't even willing to entertain the option to allow M4A in a hypothetical situation where it has already passed and is sitting on his desk waiting for his signature, there's no way in hell he's going to be willing to fight at all for the option.
 

gorfias

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And a Trump second term would be different in a positive way, how?
I would hope, once we have an economic recovery, Trump continues to renegotiate trade deals that benefit US workers of all races, sexual orientation, etc. rather than Hunter Biden and family. I hope to see wages rising for the first time in a generation again, for people's of all races, etc. I hope to see record low unemployment for people's of all national origin's etc.

With their liberty, US citizens can make forever wars an issue in a way a docile, cowed and obedient people cannot.

They may be better able to fight back against things like the current "lock down" we're experiencing that I think is not helping anyone but people in nursing homes. So, protect the nursing homes. And don't put Covid 19 positive patients cheek by jowl with 80 year olds with respiratory problems.

I honestly think the Democratic party is virulently against these things. People doing well do not need big government handouts. The more dependent they can make such people, the more comfortable they can be stating things like, "vote for me or you are not (fill in the tribe in which you feel affinity.) The more they can engage in Forever wars. The more obedient they can make you.

If Biden wins, to the extent that he is not quickly replaced by his VP, I think we will see an economic malaise for 4 to 8 years. If Trump wins? Expect a strong economy the Left will hate as it will cause them to lose some of their grip on us.
 

lil devils x

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Easy, I'm sick of being held hostage by Democrats because if we don't vote for them, THE REPUBLICANS!!!!!!111!!!!1!! will come in and kill us all. These have been the tactics of The Democrats ever since I was old enough to vote and I'm done playing that game. They don't have any need or desire to put in policies that I want because if people are going to "Vote Blue No Matter Who" then they have no need to give us what we actually want.

I know others in threads have talked about wanting to see it all burn down so that we can rise from the ashes. I don't want that. I don't want to push everyone to the breaking point where they finally get to a point where they yell enough is enough and go grab the guillotines. But honestly, maybe that is exactly what The Democrats need. I thought 2016 was going to be their wake-up call but somehow not only have they not woken up, they've double downed on the ORANGE MAN BAD rhetoric. They can't even pay lip service and pretend like M4A is something that they would fight for, it's just another campaign cycle of "You HAVE to vote for our candidate or else you're giving TRUMP the White House!!!!".



While that is a fair point that it is unlikely to pass through all the phases it needs to (regardless that the vast majority of Americans WANT this), I want a President who would be willing to fight tooth and nail to get it done. I want a President who will at least pretend like he gives a shit that many Americans die because they can't afford to go see a doctor. I want a President who will at least pretend to care that I'm not able to go back to my Neurologist at this point because because I can't keep affording to take these kind of hits to my finances (and I'm a single guy with a good job and relatively good insurance, I can't imagine what this would have been for me if I had kids or people I had to take care of or OK/No Insurance and didn't just have money I could throw but even my funds are becoming exhausted at this point).

if Biden isn't even willing to entertain the option to allow M4A in a hypothetical situation where it has already passed and is sitting on his desk waiting for his signature, there's no way in hell he's going to be willing to fight at all for the option.
Biden's planned expansion of the ACA, medicare, and medicaid that he already has budgeted for already helps with some of these issues, although the goal here is universal healthcare, by any means possible, not just M4A. As I pointed out above, we have to fix medicare for that to even be possible, as currently medicare's recouping costs policies have made is so my mother's medicare monthly out of pocket costs are HIGHER than my brothers under the ACA. People do not seem to understand medicare does not mean free healthcare, and under the ACA there are still ways to obtain free healthcare to the end user that simply do not exist under medicare yet. Using public healthcare in the US should not mean they take your home. Using public healthcare in the US should not mean having to pay doctors and hospitals cash in advance to be able to continue your care. We still have to change the way medicare works in the first place before we can even expand it, and republicans are still refusing to allow that to happen.

After my grandmother passed away, the state took my grandmother's home and evicted my wheelchair bound disabled uncle and his son who cares for him who had lived in their family home their entire life and left them homeless. They claim that they cannot take the home if you have a disabled family member in the home, but it isn't true, They STILL do this in some states and did so 4 years ago. In Texas, they often reject hardship waivers from disabled people in the home and they move too fast for you to have time to fight it unless you are wealthy enough to afford an attorney so those most vulnerable are the ones most likely to lose their homes. You can try to go on a wait list for a pro bono attorney to become available and by the time that happens you are already evicted and the state has your home. Even in my grandmother's case, she never even went into a nursing home, she was just in the hospital a long time.


In addition, while my father was in the hospital before he died, we STILL received huge hospital bills, we still had to pay his medicare monthly premiums and we still had to pay for out of pocket expenses that are not covered by his medicare as well. When I took him to see his cardiologist, I still had to pay cash copays at the time of service and his prescriptions were full price out of pocket until we paid even more out of pocket each month for medicare part B and D, and even then, medicare part B and D didn't cover as much as insurance had for the same medications. People need to understand what all needs to be fixed before we expand this program to make it workable.

ALSO, The state is still likely to take my parents farm when my mother passes away unless our family can come up with the money to pay for the State's medicare costs of my father's medical care before he passed. That is how this still works here in the US, and unless we make changes, this on a wide scale will just increase poverty and homelessness on a wider scale due to these screwed up existing policies that have to be changed.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Yes, it does. I'm not conflating anything: one would have to be either wilfully ignorant or utterly myopic to believe we should disregard an entire party platform and assume, without a shred of evidence, that they would merely do exactly what their opponent would do.

So, Biden says he'll introduce a public health insurance option & a lower limit on costs. Trump says he'll cut the funding for the existing scheme by 10%. You believe these candidates will do the same thing, & both are as likely as one another to cut it? Nonsense.
Are you just ignoring that Biden is a pathological liar and has prioritized "balancing budgets" for his entire career? Because it seems pretty relevant.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Are you just ignoring that Biden is a pathological liar and has prioritized "balancing budgets" for his entire career? Because it seems pretty relevant.
Relevant to what, though? That he will be bad, or he will be every bit exactly as bad as Trump? Two very different things.
 

lil devils x

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They may be better able to fight back against things like the current "lock down" we're experiencing that I think is not helping anyone but people in nursing homes. So, protect the nursing homes. And don't put Covid 19 positive patients cheek by jowl with 80 year olds with respiratory problems.
I really wish people would stop saying this. It isn't true. I am not 80. I will likely die from Covid. I am not anywhere near elderly, I am not even middle aged yet and I STILL get asked for my ID to buy rated R movies, I have no wrinkles, I weigh 104lbs (47.17kg), I do not eat junk food, I do not smoke. You are telling me if I die, it doesn't matter. You are telling all these people at risk of dying and who have died that they do not matter here and shouldn't be concerned. I want to live, and I am sure the many others at risk of dying here really want to live too.

Is she an 80 yr old? She could not get access to a mask because Trump failed to supply the front lines with adequate PPE.
"She went to work one day and they didn’t have a mask for her," he said.
None of thee people are 80.
By acting like this isn't a problem, you are telling me and the millions of other people that are severely affected by this that our lives do not count here.

ALSO, Trump is the biggest factor negatively impacting the economy by not doing what is required of him to make people safe enough to be able to bring our economy back. Trump's actions are why this will take longer and be much more costly in the long run. If we had anyone else president right now, we would be in better shape than we are due to Trump's ignorant actions that directly lead to making this worse and last longer. Thousands of Americans are dead DIRECTLY due to Trump's bad decisions.


We are having shortages of workers to be able to work in factories at all right now due to the number of workers infected right now. Many of the shortages we have in essential goods is due to the factories having hardly anyone there to run them due to all their workers being sick due to Trump's horrible response.
 
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Seanchaidh

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Relevant to what, though? That he will be bad, or he will be every bit exactly as bad as Trump? Two very different things.
What about Biden's long career would lead you to believe he'd be better than Trump?
 

Thaluikhain

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What about Biden's long career would lead you to believe he'd be better than Trump?
Trump's long career, mostly. The bar of "better than Trump" is set impressively low. Even a mostly incompetent PotUS is better than a totally evil one. Whatever long list of complaints you can raise against Biden, Trump can easily one up him.
 

Seanchaidh

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Trump's long career, mostly. The bar of "better than Trump" is set impressively low. Even a mostly incompetent PotUS is better than a totally evil one. Whatever long list of complaints you can raise against Biden, Trump can easily one up him.
What has Trump done that one-ups being a key player in passing the AUMF that allowed the unwarranted and unprovoked invasion of Iraq? Genuinely curious.
 

Buyetyen

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What has Trump done that one-ups being a key player in passing the AUMF that allowed the unwarranted and unprovoked invasion of Iraq? Genuinely curious.
Terminal negligence and incompetence during a pandemic resulting in a loss of over 100,000 lives in 2 months.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Terminal negligence and incompetence during a pandemic resulting in a loss of over 100,000 lives in 2 months.
I'd say that isn't as bad, myself, though hard to judge. In any case, I meant complaints against Biden and Trump as people, and how they would use the power of PotUS, rather than how they've used the power they have had beforehand. Not to give Biden a free pass on what he has done, but Trump wasn't in the same position to do such (or similar) things.
 

lil devils x

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I'd say that isn't as bad, myself, though hard to judge. In any case, I meant complaints against Biden and Trump as people, and how they would use the power of PotUS, rather than how they've used the power they have had beforehand. Not to give Biden a free pass on what he has done, but Trump wasn't in the same position to do such (or similar) things.
Trump hasn't been overly involved in the military partly because he was not intelligent enough to even comprehend his military briefings and decided to let other people deal with it for the most part. However, he has since fired so many of those that were calling the shots there who knows what he will do if they disagree with him on something he wants to do. Essentially, trump is too stupid to control the military and when he has tried, they luckily, thus far have not complied with his demands. IF he fires people until he finds people who will comply, we will have a very dangerous situation on our hands. He is too stupid and too dangerous to be allowed to do his job as commander of the military.

 

gorfias

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I really wish people would stop saying this [only nursing home patients benefit from the lock down]. It isn't true. I am not 80. I will likely die from Covid. …You are telling me if I die, it doesn't matter.
My bad in that I wrote the lock down was only helping nursing home patients. I should have written something different. That is hyperbolic. Apologies.
I do understand the vast majority of those killed by Covid are elderly. This link writes some 75% are 65 or older: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/ I have health issues and am nearing that age group myself. I insist upon putting my life on the line to ensure my kids have a free and prosperous society in which to raise a family of their own.
Lockdown itself appears to be a fail as most new cases are from people that are in lockdown:
Life is not safe. Every person that dies in a traffic accident while headed to work “matters”. Crossing a street, taking mass transportation. Putting shingles on a roof.
There are tradeoffs. This lockdown has a cost. And people are determining that it isn’t worth that cost now, if it ever was to begin with.
Example: Will the lockdown cost us to lose even more lives to suicide?
"We've never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time," he said. "I mean we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks."
Given what we know, this lockdown is starting to smack a lot more of authoritarians exercising power over the masses than having an actual health concern. Trump is fighting them, fighting for example, for people to be able to go to church.
Biden would back the authoritarians.
For that reason among others, I’d choose Trump over Biden.
 

Agema

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My bad in that I wrote the lock down was only helping nursing home patients. I should have written something different. That is hyperbolic. Apologies.
I do understand the vast majority of those killed by Covid are elderly. This link writes some 75% are 65 or older: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/ I have health issues and am nearing that age group myself.

Lockdown itself appears to be a fail as most new cases are from people that are in lockdown:
Yes, but the vast majority of people are in lockdown. If (say) 90% of people are in lockdown and 10% are not, and 60% of cases are people in lockdown, then lockdown is much safer than not. Secondly, in terms of places like care homes with a lot of shared space, this is technically lockdown, but if infection gets in, it spreads like crazy.

I insist upon putting my life on the line to ensure my kids have a free and prosperous society in which to raise a family of their own.

Life is not safe.
You have every right to volunteer to sacrifice yourself. Asking the government to sacrifice up to 5% of other people, however, is a very different matter. It is comparable to forcibly conscripting people into the army and sending them out to die so everyone else can have a few dollars off the cost of oil. Or perhaps smoking: each and every person may choose to risk themselves, but they don't have a right to risk everyone else through passive smoking.

And just to be clear here, the chance of death for over-65s that catch covid-19 is potentially around or over 5%. That's more than a little unsafe. It's certainly a vast way beyond "traffic accident" unsafe. In fact, it's significantly less safe than it was to serve in the US armed forces during WW2.

Given what we know, this lockdown is starting to smack a lot more of authoritarians exercising power over the masses than having an actual health concern.
Trump's exercise of executive power is authoritarian, his rhetoric is authoritarian, his undermining of other political figures and their rights is authoritarian, his best foreign buddies (in Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc.) are all authoritarians.

This is authoritarianism 101. It attempts to portray a vital threat to the wellbeing of the nation from which the authoritarians are the only remedy. Thus the "deep state", coronavirus conspiracies, etc. These are the justifications for authoritarians to carry out acts that are flagrantly disrespectful of democratic norms and procedures. For instance, Trump is explicitly trying to undermine, and claims he can overrule, the powers of state governors (in apparent contravention of the Constitution). He's liberally removing Constitutionally mandated oversight of Congress by replacing inspector generals. He's appointed an Attorney General who is on the record for an opinion that approximates to "If the president does it, it therefore cannot be a crime." You have never seen so authoritarian a president in your lifetime, and you're voting for it.[/QUOTE]